Let us for the sake of argument say it refers to a man who died in the 90's.

This just can not be. Why? Because just a few verses down, it states that this Man of Sin / Lawless One will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Coming. Since he is already dead, many who held to this theory, now apply it to his son. But even if we accept this transference it makes no sense, because the shattered mess he presides over, is completely apostate, and no longer keeps the Sabbath. No, this flip flopping is not good, saying it was the father (who died) and then transferring the prophecy to the son, just does not wash.

2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what holds back, for him to be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
2Th 2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.

Just to add to what I was saying...

If you want to apply the 2 Thess. 2:4, to a man in the 90's...and call him the "abomination of desolation", this involves so much double think I find it hard to imagine anybody can swallow this theory.


1) he died, so he can not be "destroyed by the Brightness of Christ's Coming"

2) you can not transfer this to the son, even if you wanted to, because he did not "set up" the "abomination", his father (supposedly) did.

3) if it applied to him (the one that died) then the 1290 days came and went. Christ has not returned. Scripture is broken.

4) if you start the 1290 with his death then #3 applies again.

5) if you start it this month (Nov. 14 2008), and then twist the meaning around of the Daniel passages to mean that the desolation is ENDING. This simply is ludicrous. If the "desolation" is ending (the double think interpretation) then that would mean the Laodicean Era will reverse its condition and become Philadelphian. Bible prophecy does not indicate this, and it certainly is not happening.

6) Also, if the desolation is starting (or ending...or maybe starting) this month, then the falling away would start this month....It's history, so it can not be "starting" now.

There is so much double think involved, I can't imagine how anybody can accept this without getting a nose bleed.




[edit on 19-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

[edit on 19-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

Did I miss something ....who are you talking about that died in the 90s ?
Sorry for the one liner lol ....

The bible is clear on the identity of this Man of Sin : it is the False Prophet, who will work miracles in the sight of men (such as calling down fire), and will cause all men to worship the Beast, as well as himself.

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
Let us for the sake of argument say it refers to a man who died in the 90's.

This just can not be. Why? Because just a few verses down, it states that this Man of Sin / Lawless One will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Coming. Since he is already dead, many who held to this theory, now apply it to his son. But even if we accept this transference it makes no sense, because the shattered mess he presides over, is completely apostate, and no longer keeps the Sabbath. No, this flip flopping is not good, saying it was the father (who died) and then transferring the prophecy to the son, just does not wash.

It fits perfectly.

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This man died exactly 40 Sabbaths from the time he gave the sermon saying the Sabbath and Holy days were no longer binding. 40 is a number of judgment from God, 40 days and 40 nights, 40 years in the wilderness etc. His death was a judgment from God (consumed with the spirit of his mouth). If you read the whole passage in context, it is talking about the signs that must take place BEFORE the return of Christ, not what happens at the return of Christ.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It actually says these events are holding back the return. The identity of the son of perdition must be revealed BEFOREthe return of Christ, and something must happen to indefify him, and it then goes on to say what even will identify him. It says what he will do, and that he will die. The word translated as "brightness" means advent, or coming, or illumination. It saying this event illuminates what is soon coming, namely Christ's return. This event opened the first seal, and did illuminate, as a sign, that Jesus was soon to return. The church was no longer in the dark, just as prophesied....

1Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The events holding back the return of Christ have now taken place, the son of perdition has sat in the temple, lifting himself up above God, he caused a falling away, a defection of from the truth, and he was destroyed by the word of God, a pronounced judgment, 40 Sabbaths after causing the apostasy. All the signs Paul mentions have come to pass, and this has shed "brightness" on the fact that the return of Christ is imminent. The church is not in darkness of this fact.

A more correct translation....

2Th 2:8 + then will be |unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord will |despatch with the spirit of His *mouth and will |discard by the advent/illumination of His coming),

Notice also, that his (son of perdition's) identity is revealed by his taking out of the way (verses 6-8). It is his actions and the 40 Sabbaths judgement of God that takes him out of the way, that reveals who this is, and in turn reveals the soon coming of Christ.

[edit on 19/11/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib_2
Just to add to what I was saying...

If you want to apply the 2 Thess. 2:4, to a man in the 90's...and call him the "abomination of desolation", this involves so much double think I find it hard to imagine anybody can swallow this theory.

The abomination isnot the man, it was his actions and the results

1) he died, so he can not be "destroyed by the Brightness of Christ's Coming"

Just explained this

2) you can not transfer this to the son, even if you wanted to, because he did not "set up" the "abomination", his father (supposedly) did.

Don't know who believes this is his son?

3) if it applied to him (the one that died) then the 1290 days came and went. Christ has not returned. Scripture is broken.

4) if you start the 1290 with his death then #3 applies again.

Already explained that.

5) if you start it this month (Nov. 14 2008), and then twist the meaning around of the Daniel passages to mean that the desolation is ENDING. This simply is ludicrous. If the "desolation" is ending (the double think interpretation) then that would mean the Laodicean Era will reverse its condition and become Philadelphian. Bible prophecy does not indicate this, and it certainly is not happening.

Why would this mean the ear goes back to Philadelphia?

6) Also, if the desolation is starting (or ending...or maybe starting) this month, then the falling away would start this month....It's history, so it can not be "starting" now.

No, the prophecy concerns both the setting up and taking down of the abomination of desolation.

There is so much double think involved, I can't imagine how anybody can accept this without getting a nose bleed.

It is only double think because it contradicts what YOU currently believe.

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib_2
The bible is clear on the identity of this Man of Sin : it is the False Prophet, who will work miracles in the sight of men (such as calling down fire), and will cause all men to worship the Beast, as well as himself.

The man of sin is the son of perdition, not the false prophet...

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The term son of perdition is used twice in scripture to describe two separate individuals. The first was Judas Iscariot. Talking of his disciples, Jesus said....

JOHN 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The Son of perdition reference here is undoubtedly about Judas, and what he was now about to do. He was going to betray Christ, and the position he had been put in, and his actions would then lead to the temporary destruction of the Body of Christ and the scattering of his disciples. This was the physical fulfillment of the Son of Perdition. The second son of Perdition would do exactly the same, but spiritually. He would be in a position close to Christ (this time the earthly head of his the church, under Christ), and his actions would lead to the temporary destruction of the spiritual body of Christ, the church, the temple of God, just as described in the prophecy of 2Thess 2. Again this would lead to the scattering of his disciples, the stones of the temple. It never ceases to amaze me how portions of God's plan and prophecy is fulfilled perfectly twice, physically, and spiritually, sometimes more than twice, and thousands of years apart. All these pieces add up perfectly, but I guess still, only God can open your eyes to see it.

While the man who took over the church, was indeed a false apostle (you can know by the fruits, and the fruits of his ministry was an apostate church), and I'd even agree that the timing of his death was providential, it is incorrect to call him "the" Man of Sin.
There are many sons of perdition, there is only one who is assigned the title of "Man of Sin" for the endtime.
Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
"Man of sin" = "the son of perdition" = "That Wicked (one)"



The idea that a man who died of cancer in the 90's death "illuminates" Christ's Coming, is simply ridiculous. The scriptures simply do not support this contorted "reading into the verse" meaning. The scriptures say this Man of Sin will be destroyed...by what? By Christ's Manifestation / Coming / Brightness. It does not say his death will illuminate Christ's coming. No translation even remotely supports the former meaning.

(KJVR) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(LITV) And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence.
(MKJV) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
(RV) And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
(YLT) and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,

Revelation is quite clear and explicit on this point. Christ will Return. The False Prophet will there in Jerusalem (along with Beast leader). He will be thrown alive into a lake of fire. He will be destroyed. In total agreement with the 2 Thess. Passages.

The best translation is the RV one.

(RV) And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;

His exact manner of death is clarified in Rev 19:19-20

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[continued in next post]

[edit on 22-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Let's examine the "Man of Sin" template.. Before we do, let's see the revelent passage again.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Original Man of Sin

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Template
1) Timing : "Day of Christ"
2) " Then entered Satan into Judas(original Man of Sin)" - Possessed by Satan
3) "exalteth himself above all that is called God" - Claim titles of God, calls himself God, demands worship
4) "working's of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" - Displays great supernatural powers.
5) "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" Is destroyed at Christ's return.



Let's examine the history of a man who died in the 90's....
1) Timing : died in 90's. Christ did not return.
2) Was a false apostle, led by Satan, but I saw no evidence he was possessed at all.
3) While he was a false apostle he did not demand worship
4) no display of miraculous powers
5) he's dead, so he can not be destroyed at the Second Coming.



Let's examine the False Prophet template of Revelation.
1) 2Th 2:2 Timing "Day of Christ" (literally there on that day of Christ's Return)

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beast will make war against "him that sat on the horse" or Christ. Both he (beast) and False Prophet will be there, they will both be thrown into a lake of fire, they will both be destroyed.


2)2Th 2:9 Possessed by Demons.."after the working of Satan"

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

3) Will claim titles of God and demand worship (Papal titles : "Holy Father", this should provide some "hints" who this will be)


4) 2Th 2:9 Will display miraculous "power and signs and lying wonders"...

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

5) Is alive now somewhere, and did not die in the 90's. He will still be alive and be destroyed at the Second Coming.





A man who died in the 90's does not fit this template. He did not demand worship, did not take on God's titles, he performed no miracles in the sight of men. Was led but not possessed by demons.

A false prophet will fulfill this template completely. He'll take titles of God, demand worship, call himself God. Will perform miracles in the sight of men. Will be alive at the Second Coming. Will be destroyed by Christ's Second Coming.



[edit on 22-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

If they way you believe 2Thess 2 is correct, then why does it say these things must take place BEFORE Christ's coming, not AT his coming. Read it again, it says his identity must be revealed and he taken out out of the way before Christ can return, this is withholding his return.....

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Notice also that it says his identity will not be revealed until after he is taken out of the way.....

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So how can this man be destroyed by Christ's coming, if Christ can not return until after this man has been revealed, and that he can not be revealed until after he is dead? Do you see the conundrum there? That fact alone proves that it is not Christ's coming that destroys this man, but that he is destroyed by the spirit of the mouth of the Lord, just as it says.