The Abomination of Desolation

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
Here are the NT passages that discuss the Abomination of Desolation.

Matt 24:15-21 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Why do you think the phrase "whoso reatheth, let him understand" is inserted here? It is because much of what Christ taught was in parables....

MATTHEW 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

If you read through scripture at look at it only physically, you will miss the whole point, just as Christ said to Nicodemus....

JOHN 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Christ taught using physical symbols for things that were not yet in existence, such as the church (spiritual Judea), and mountains (prophetic symbolism for governments). If you look at what he said, and look at it only physically, you will completely miss the point and not SEE what it is that Christ was trying to make you SEE, which you seem to have done.

[edit on 8/11/08 by doctorex]

reply to post by Simplynoone


Yes the physical fulfillment of this prophecy has taken place (70AD), but much of what what pictured in the old testament times was a physical type of what was to happen later spiritually, such as the physical temple being a symbol of what would later be spiritual, the church in who God dwells through his Holy Spirit.

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

reply to post by doctorex

MATTHEW 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Christ spoke to THE GENERAL PUBLIC in parables, when he was discoursing with his disciples, he spoke plainly. The Oliviet Prophecy was addressed to HIS DISCIPLES, to which he spoke plainly. The language is about literal events that would happen at the end time.

Notice that when he spoke in parables it was so that only those that could hear would understand, meaning he was not even talking to the general public when he spoke in parables, but to his disciples or those with similar understanding in the future. Christ knew that his words would be recorded for all generations, and that he was talking in parables when he gave this prophecy, and it is obvious that whoever scribed these words knew Christ was talking in parables also, hence the "(whoso readeth, let him understand)" at the part concerning the abomination of desolation. If Christ was talking plainly, then why would this subtle hint be given that there was more to what Christ was saying than was obvious to the general eye? It's because the was more to it than what it physically pictured.

When the Gospels present a parable, in every instance, it will explicitly state a parable is being said.

Phrases like "Hear ye his parable" or "He spoke a parable unto them" or "Declare to us this parable"....are always presented before the giving of a parable.







KJV Mt 13:18

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


KJV Mt 13:24

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:


KJV Mt 13:31

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:


KJV Mt 13:33

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


KJV Mt 13:34

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:


KJV Mt 13:36

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


KJV Mt 15:15

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.


KJV Mt 21:33

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:


KJV Mt 24:32

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:


KJV Mk 4:10

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.


KJV Mk 4:13

And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable?


KJV Mk 4:34

But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.


KJV Mk 7:17

And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.


KJV Mk 12:12

And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

KJV Mk 13:28

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:


KJV Lk 5:36

And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.


KJV Lk 6:39

And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?


KJV Lk 8:4

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:


KJV Lk 8:9

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?


KJV Lk 8:11

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.


KJV Lk 12:16

And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:


KJV Lk 12:41

Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?


KJV Lk 13:6

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.


KJV Lk 14:7

And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,


KJV Lk 15:3

And he spake this parable unto them, saying,


KJV Lk 18:1

And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;


KJV Lk 18:9

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:


KJV Lk 19:11

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.


KJV Lk 20:9

Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.


KJV Lk 20:19

And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

KJV Lk 21:29

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;


KJV Jn 10:6

This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

"whoso readeth, let him understand"

This phrase is there because he is REFERENCING THE WRITTEN PASSAGE IN DANIEL.

He is saying, "Whoever has read that passage in Daniel, let him understand, here is the explanation" ...and then he proceeds to explain it.

The disciples asked Him about the End of the Age, and He proceeds to explain it, and He references Daniel.



The proclamation that the passage is a parable, simply has no merit.


[edit on 9-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

It should be noted that in the MIDDLE of the Olivet prophecy, Christ introduces a parable, and explicitly states it's a parable, and explains it.

#1: '...The daily sacrifice is taken away...'

#2: '...the abomination of desolation...'


#1, since when has the daily sacrifice of animals & birds, etc been taken away... was it in 70AD when the Romans destroyed the historic 2nd Temple?

Or, can we look upon 'the daily sacrifice' as being the oppression of the Jewish practitioners of their faith/religion...
and when there is no longer the oppression or terrorist attacks on the Jewish faithful, then the 'daily sacrifice' which the faithful Jews endured by just living and practicising their religious faith, has come to an end...
Then, we might look upon that situation as a time of 'peace'-- or -- a time that the 'Daily Sacrifice was taken Away"...... hmmmm


All throughout the scriptures, it is stated in whispers, that sexual perversity, or call it sodomy, homosexuality, is an 'Abomination'...
an abomination which does not bring about Life or Abundance.. but the acts bring about only Desolation.
So, it follows, that a period of 'Peace', in which perversions such as homosexuality are accepted and embraced....> will fufill the meanings of the 2 phrases.... 'Daily Sacrifice eliminated & the Abomination of Desolation Set-Up'

It should be noted that RW's statement that Tkatch's actions (abolishing requirement for Sabbath keeping) are what constitute the abomination of desolation, simply has no merit.

If we accept his statement, then the 1290 day period should have begun a long time ago in the mid 90s, and the return of Christ would have already occurred.

If on the other hand we say the 1290 is yet future (ie next week according to his updated prophecy calender). Then the abomination of desolation should occur next week rather than in history.

To get around this conundrum, we will have to twist the Daniel passages to the point beyond recognition. Which RW does. His explanation is simply self contradicting.



[edit on 9-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib

"whoso readeth, let him understand"

This phrase is there because he is REFERENCING THE WRITTEN PASSAGE IN DANIEL.

He is saying, "Whoever has read that passage in Daniel, let him understand, here is the explanation" ...and then he proceeds to explain it.

The disciples asked Him about the End of the Age, and He proceeds to explain it, and He references Daniel.

There are more scriptures than Daniel that explain this prophecy. What about all the other scriptures that explain it spiritually? Notice that before mentioning the abomination of desolation, Christ mentions...

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Now notice what Peter says to the church about stones of the temple, and sacrifices....

1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

What about all the scriptures from Paul that explain what the temple now was in the eyes of God?

The proclamation that the passage is a parable, simply has no merit.

No merit? Then I have 3 simple questions for you to see whether it has merit....

1) According to Christ and the disciples what is the temple or sanctuary of God now since the sacrifice of Christ, and would also be when the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation would be fulfilled at this end time?

2) Why would God give a prophecy concerning the temple at the end time, then explain over and over again that at the end time His temple/sanctuary/altar would be a spiritual building, the body of Christ, the church, if he meant that contrary to what scripture now called the temple, the prophecy concerning the Holy temple of God would actually be a physical altar, temple etc, and yet this this Altar/temple would not even be considered Holy or His in the eyes of God?

3) With all this scripture, why would there be a mention of "let the reader understand". Is it only referring to the scriptures in Daniel, or ALL scripture concerning the particulars of this prophecy?

What you are stating contradicts scripture after scripture concerning what God now considers his temple/sanctuary/altar, but you don't seem to want to see that, you just want to look at it physically and remain blind, just as Nicodemus could not see what Christ was talking about being born again. Anyway, God bless.

When world government institute a sunday sabbath keeping law. This would be that fulfillment.

[I]Originally posted by doctorex[/I]


1) According to Christ and the disciples what is the temple or sanctuary of God now since the sacrifice of Christ, and would also be when the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation would be fulfilled at this end time?

2) Why would God give a prophecy concerning the temple at the end time, then explain over and over again that at the end time His temple/sanctuary/altar would be a spiritual building, the body of Christ, the church, if he meant that contrary to what scripture now called the temple, the prophecy concerning the Holy temple of God would actually be a physical altar, temple etc, and yet this this Altar/temple would not even be considered Holy or His in the eyes of God?

3) With all this scripture, why would there be a mention of "let the reader understand". Is it only referring to the scriptures in Daniel, or ALL scripture concerning the particulars of this prophecy?

What you are stating contradicts scripture after scripture concerning what God now considers his temple/sanctuary/altar, but you don't seem to want to see that, you just want to look at it physically and remain blind, just as Nicodemus could not see what Christ was talking about being born again. Anyway, God bless.

A number of points
1) If Christ was speaking in a parable He would have explicitly stated it, as He does in every instance when he speaks a parable. (there is an embedded parable in text, and He explicitly states it as such)

2) Christ does not use parable like language (i.e. Farmers/fields/seeds etc...)

3) Verses 1-2 were literally fulfilled by the Romans when they overran Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The verse was fulfilled then.

4) The Temple in verses 1-2 CAN NOT BE THE CHURCH (I will explain shortly)




Yes, the bible does state that Church = Temple.

But let's backtrack

In Matthew 24...you have 2 things
A) A Temple (verses 1-2)
B) A Holy Place (verse 15)

To say they are both one and the same is a mistake..
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand



In other words the Temple in verses 1-2 is not the Holy Place mentioned in verse 15.

A Temple is a Holy Place BUT A Holy Place is NOT necessarily a Temple.



For example

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

The Holy Place mentioned here is obviously NOT A TEMPLE. It is the inner room where only the High Priest would be allowed to enter.



All New Yorkers are Americans, but not all Americans are New Yorkers, it is the same with Temples and Holy Places.

All Termples are Holy Places but not all Holy Places are Temples.



"Holy Place" in verse 15, simply can be translated "consecrated place" that is all the verse means. Whether God considers it holy is another matter.

People consecrate all sorts of things, every day, in religious ceremonies, does that mean God considers it holy? Well of course not.



Notice again verse 1-2

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



It says NOT ONE stone will not be thrown down. If this is a reference to the Church, then Christ is saying that NOT A SINGLE CHRISTIAN would escape becoming apostate. This would contradict His promise that the Church would NEVER DIE, i.e. There would be faithful Christians at the end of the Age.

It does not say SOME, or MOST, it says NOT ONE STONE that shall be thrown down. For this to apply, every faithful Christian would according to this "prophesy", fall away from the faith. This simply will not happen. This can not apply to the Church / Temple.



This verse was fulfilled literally by the Romans, they literally overturned every stone of the Temple building itself, the only thing left was the foundation.



Again the Temple in verses 1-2 and the Holy Place in verse 15 simply are not the same thing. You keeping associating this desolation with the Temple, it does not say that, the desolation is of a "consecrated place" not a Temple. Neither the passages in Daniel, nor Matt 24 reference a Temple in relation to this desolation. They both only mention a "holy place", and from the context (halting of daily sacrifice / "continuals") we know the "holy place" mentioned is referring to the Alter.






[edit on 13-11-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddibYes, the bible does state that Church = Temple.

But let's backtrack

In Matthew 24...you have 2 things
A) A Temple (verses 1-2)
B) A Holy Place (verse 15)

To say they are both one and the same is a mistake..
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

In other words the Temple in verses 1-2 is not the Holy Place mentioned in verse 15.

A Temple is a Holy Place BUT A Holy Place is NOT necessarily a Temple.



For example

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

The Holy Place mentioned here is obviously NOT A TEMPLE. It is the inner room where only the High Priest would be allowed to enter.

And where was the holy of holies? It was in the temple. So if the holy of holies was the most consecrated place of the temple, and the temple is now the church, and an abomination would stand there, where would that make it now? The ministry?

Notice again verse 1-2

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There SHALL NOT BE LEFT ONE STONE upon another, that shall not be thrown down.



It says NOT ONE stone will not be thrown down. If this is a reference to the Church, then Christ is saying that NOT A SINGLE CHRISTIAN would escape becoming apostate. This would contradict His promise that the Church would NEVER DIE, i.e. There would be faithful Christians at the end of the Age.

It does not say SOME, or MOST, it says NOT ONE STONE that shall be thrown down. For this to apply, every faithful Christian would according to this "prophesy", fall away from the faith. This simply will not happen. This can not apply to the Church / Temple.

The stones would be thrown down, and scattered, but that does not mean the church would be completely destroyed. A remnant would be called from this scattering. It is talking of the event of the church of the Laodicean era.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

God does prophesy that this would happen to the church at the end time.

Again the Temple in verses 1-2 and the Holy Place in verse 15 simply are not the same thing. You keeping associating this desolation with the Temple, it does not say that, the desolation is of a "consecrated place" not a Temple. Neither the passages in Daniel, nor Matt 24 reference a Temple in relation to this desolation. They both only mention a "holy place", and from the context (halting of daily sacrifice / "continuals") we know the "holy place" mentioned is referring to the Alter.

It does not say only the holy place would be desolated, it says the abomination would STAND in the holy place, and the holy place was in the temple, was it not? And Peter said the sacrifices would now be spiritual, didn't he?


[edit on 13/11/08 by doctorex]

[1) According to Christ and the disciples what is the temple or sanctuary of God now since the sacrifice of Christ, and would also be when the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation would be fulfilled at this end time?]

Gods temple is in his body of believers *ye are the temple of God .
satan wants a temple too but his will be made with hands .he is coming as a man too .....and will want a literal temple to be worshipped in ..wouldnt he ?He thinks that he is as God remember ?
So will the Jewish people who do not accept Christ as the sacrifice for their sins ..I believe after the Ezek battle they will be ready to build one and go back to the OT ways because that war is gonna make them WAKE up and at least make them remember God again (according to the bible God intervenes in that war to get their attention) .....this will make them hurry and put something up ..whether it be an altar or a temple ..or a make shift tent (They did this once in the scripture too) .


[2) Why would God give a prophecy concerning the temple at the end time, then explain over and over again that at the end time His temple/sanctuary/altar would be a spiritual building, the body of Christ, the church, if he meant that contrary to what scripture now called the temple, the prophecy concerning the Holy temple of God would actually be a physical altar, temple etc, and yet this this Altar/temple would not even be considered Holy or His in the eyes of God?]

God was warning believers not to fall for it when this one does get built ..alot of believers these days are getting into Jewish rituals and OT holidays ....some would believe they need to join in when this comes down ..(alot of Christians are very ignorant when it comes to the word and can be easily persuaded ..you know that .....)..God also knew that some would believe that it all already happened back in 70 AD and alot of people may think it is the Temple of the New Jerusalem ..which Ezek talks about ...(there will be so much deception that if it were possible even the elect would be decieved)....so it will be a biggie (deception) ...
....
Maybe it is not a Holy place to God but would be considered a Holy place to the Jews ............maybe God may be glad they at least are remembering him by building this temple and going back to obedience to him ...(they would do all the old rituals for him) ...remember they are not under Christ Blood because they did not accept him ...which it was written that they would not accept him (so scripture could be fulfilled) and we could also be saved (The Gentiles) ...he is one the who turned their hearing off and blinded their eyes (was all in his plan ) ....

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
(They are not under an Jewish customs and DO NOT HAVE TO ..(I am just posting this for those Christians who do try and follow Jewish customs thinking it does anything ...it does not ..because we are not under that law) .

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.


3) With all this scripture, why would there be a mention of "let the reader understand". Is it only referring to the scriptures in Daniel, or ALL scripture concerning the particulars of this prophecy?

As I said above ...so that the Gentiles would understand and not follow the Jews into these customs ..... there are all sorts of christians who are messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus and even Christian sects are supporting them with money to build their temple and the artifacts ..

My opinion anyway ..and I could be wrong ...

Originally posted by Simplynoone

Gods temple is in his body of believers *ye are the temple of God .
satan wants a temple too but his will be made with hands .he is coming as a man too .....and will want a literal temple to be worshipped in ..wouldnt he ?He thinks that he is as God remember ?

Would God call Satan's temple Holy? Quite frankly, no. No prophecy about a temple for satan would be refered to in prophecy as Holy. It is a satanic deception that a physical temple will even be built for the end times, because if you're waiting for it be built before the end comes, it will indeed come on you like a thief in the night.

So will the Jewish people who do not accept Christ as the sacrifice for their sins ..I believe after the Ezek battle they will be ready to build one and go back to the OT ways because that war is gonna make them WAKE up and at least make them remember God again (according to the bible God intervenes in that war to get their attention) .....this will make them hurry and put something up ..whether it be an altar or a temple ..or a make shift tent (They did this once in the scripture too) .

If you are referring to the Gog/magog war, the book of Revelation reveals when that will take place.....

REVELATION 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This takes place 1000 years after the return of Christ, not before.

[2) Why would God give a prophecy concerning the temple at the end time, then explain over and over again that at the end time His temple/sanctuary/altar would be a spiritual building, the body of Christ, the church, if he meant that contrary to what scripture now called the temple, the prophecy concerning the Holy temple of God would actually be a physical altar, temple etc, and yet this this Altar/temple would not even be considered Holy or His in the eyes of God?]

God was warning believers not to fall for it when this one does get built...

Then wouldn't he actually warn that one would indeed be built? And if it were, why would he call it the temple of God, if it really weren't such a thing?

alot of believers these days are getting into Jewish rituals and OT holidays ....some would believe they need to join in when this comes down ..(alot of Christians are very ignorant when it comes to the word and can be easily persuaded ..you know that .....)..

Actually, the Apostles still followed the OT holidays (for example Acts 2:1, Acts 20:16, 1Corinthians 16:8), and it is a Satanic deception that they are done away with, and instead to follow Easter and Christmas. Look into the origins of Easter and Christmas....

www.gotquestions.org...

www.essortment.com...

God also knew that some would believe that it all already happened back in 70 AD

It did, but the prophecy is dual, first a physical type for what would later happen spiritually in the church, the spiritual temple of God.

Maybe it is not a Holy place to God but would be considered a Holy place to the Jews ............maybe God may be glad they at least are remembering him by building this temple and going back to obedience to him ...(they would do all the old rituals for him) ...remember they are not under Christ Blood because they did not accept him ...

How exactly would that make God happy? Them rejecting his church (spiritual temple), rejecting the sacrifice of his Son? I don't think he would be very happy about that, even if they did build a temple.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

(They are not under an Jewish customs and DO NOT HAVE TO ..(I am just posting this for those Christians who do try and follow Jewish customs thinking it does anything ...it does not ..because we are not under that law) .

The sacrificing to idols, and taking of blood, strangled animals, and fornication have absolutely nothing to do with the law, they are all against it.

3) With all this scripture, why would there be a mention of "let the reader understand". Is it only referring to the scriptures in Daniel, or ALL scripture concerning the particulars of this prophecy?

As I said above ...so that the Gentiles would understand and not follow the Jews into these customs ..... there are all sorts of christians who are messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus and even Christian sects are supporting them with money to build their temple and the artifacts ..

Yes the sacrificial priesthood is taken away, but nowhere in scripture are the OT Holidays and Sabbath taken away, but I agree, anyone giving money to rebuild a temple has not studied their Bible very well.

reply to post by doctorex


[This takes place 1000 years after the return of Christ, not before.]
I was not talking about the Armegeddon war ..
That is the FINAL BATTLE Of all time *Which happens at the end of the thousand years ..

The war of Ezek 39
That I believe starts the trib .

Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
www.blueletterbible.org...

Notice it says he leaves a sixth part of them (this cant be the Armegeddon war because Gog is completely DESTROYED then ..no sixth part left ..(He is saving the sixth part of them for the very last Armegeddon war after the thousand years)

I used to think this war was Armgeddon too until I started seeing some things that made me see differently ..



[ TIMING IN CURRENT WORLD EVENTS
When will it happen? Ezekiel's war probably will occur soon after the coming conflict between Syria/Egypt and Israel, which could happen any moment. It's probable that the next war will be the "hooks in the jaw" (Ezek.38:4) that draws Russia, Iran and their allies directly into this regional conflict. Even now the Russians are selling and installing massive amounts of weapons in Iran (Ezekiel's "Persia"). In June, 1997, Iran test-fired missiles over the Persian Gulf, giving much concern to the U.S. Defense Department, and also held huge military maneuvers code-named "The Road to Jerusalem.

"THIS IS NOT THE FINAL GOG-MAGOG BATTLE
That Ezekiel's war will commence near the beginning of the tribulation period and is not the "Gog and Magog" battle of Revelation 20 (which happens after the 1,000 year reign of Christ) is suggested by the following verses:

And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons...and they shall burn them with fire seven years: So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 39:9-10

This seven-year period coincides with the "tribulation." The need for wood-burning fuel in Israel during the war's aftermath suggests that Ezekiel's prophecy isn't the post-millennial era of Revelation 20:8, where there the term "Gog and Magog" is a broader reference to the far-flung gentile nations of the world, who invade Israel from "the four quarters of the earth." Ezekiel's Gog and Magog, however, is a gentile nation specified as the "chief prince of Meschech and Tubal," limiting the reference in both time and location to a nation (Rosh) who leads an invasion of Israel from the"north quarters" only, not from all "four quarters of the earth" as described in Revelation 20. It is also unlikely that wood-burning fuel or any other kind would be required at the end of the 1,000 year "regeneration" and reign of Jesus Christ, after which an entirely new creation is made. Furthermore, the chapters following Ezekiel 38-39 describes this millennium period, placing Ezekiel's war prior to it. According to Ezekiel, this "Rosh [chief prince] of Meshech and Tubal" will "prepare" and "guard" (literally: arm and command) a group of mostly Islamic nations in the invasion (38:7). It's no coincidence that in every war including and since Israel's War of Independence in 1948, Russia has provided the Arab nations with both weapons and personnel in their wars against the Jews. Russia is the ultimate threat to Israel from "out of the north parts" (38:15). The ancient historian, Josephus (Antiquities 1,VI.1), tracked the migration of Noah's descendants, Gog, Magog, Meshech and Tubal (Gen.10:2), to the northern regions of what today are parts of southern Russia and/or the former Soviet Union. Many Orthodox Jews in Israel today believe Russia is Ezekiel's Gog and Magog, that this war is imminent, and that the Messiah, interestingly, will come to deliver them from their invaders. Note: Since Ezekiel 40 and following reveals a "temple" with very precise measurements, this might be the blueprint of the controversial "Third Temple" which many Jews long for, and which they might be inspired and enabled to build after Ezekiel's war, when they no longer have to bother about Islamic opposition. However, building might start sooner, which will further incite war with the Arabs.

THIS IS NOT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON
There are no references in Ezekiel 38-39 to the conflict between Jesus Christ and "antichrist" (the false Christ), a battle that will end with antichrist's defeat at the notorious battle of Armageddon (Rev.16:16).

ESCALATION OF EZEKIEL'S WAR
Again, Ezekiel's war occurs near the beginning of the final seven-year tribulation period and will bring about much devastation to the planet as part of a time generally known as the "beginning of sorrows," which will only intensify until the second coming of Christ. While Israel's victory in this war will encourage believing Jews and Gentiles who know from the Bible that God has actually won the day and glorified himself (38:23) as He did in ancient times against Pharaoh, the world (including Israel's allies) will be severely traumatized by this escalating war (39:6), which probably will involve nuclear weapons. This point cannot be overstated, because Ezekiel's war and the events following it will instill such fear and insecurity in humanity as to pave the way for the coming of"antichrist" and a universal system of government (the real "new world order") that will offer the delusion of "peace and safety," despite worse troubles to come. ]
www.apocalypsesoon.org...


I believe it is this coming war will be the war that causes deception ...
Many believe like you ...and will think that the whole trib has already happened so when this war occurs they will think they are about to be in the thousand year reign of Christ ..only with the ANTI in charge ..instead of Christ .


Remember satans whole duty is to DECEIVE ...even the elect if he can ..


Think about this ...the coming Utopian world that those of this world are trying to bring about right now ....they are going to get all to believe it is the thousand year reign of Christ ..you watch and see .........








[edit on 14-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

So Doc what will you do when you really do see an actual temple built ?
The Jews have been saying for years and years and years that there will be another Temple built ..Their torah predicts it (according to them) even ....

I am not gonna argue with you about it ..because there is no point ...
I guess this is something we will have to wait and see ..

reply to post by Simplynoone


The Jews desperately want to build a temple. Every year they go up to the temple mount with the first stone (I forget when). They are prevented every year from laying down that first stone by armed guards.

While it is true that they want to build a temple, I don't think they will succeed, it is possible they will do it, but the bible is not emphatic on this point.

It is clear from the bible that sacrifices will resume at some point, and for that they need a ceremonially consecrated alter. They will succeed with that.

They have the red bulls available, as well as all the temple wardrobes and utilities.

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib_2
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

The Jews desperately want to build a temple. Every year they go up to the temple mount with the first stone (I forget when). They are prevented every year from laying down that first stone by armed guards.

While it is true that they want to build a temple, I don't think they will succeed, it is possible they will do it, but the bible is not emphatic on this point.

It is clear from the bible that sacrifices will resume at some point, and for that they need a ceremonially consecrated alter. They will succeed with that.

They have the red bulls available, as well as all the temple wardrobes and utilities.

yes ..like I said it could just be an altar or a tent of some sort ..
Or a place like this .
Hurva Synagogue to be Rebuilt
www.israelnationalnews.com...



Here is some neat stuff found in the news concerning the old temples.
First-Ever: First-Temple Building Remains Found Near Temple Mt.
www.israelnationalnews.com...

Quarry for Temple Mount's Giant Rocks - Found
Divine Regards
Rabbi Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem told Arutz-7 that the discovery of the quarry was both historically dramatic and spiritually exhilarating: "Precisely now, when the Moslems are trying to erase all vestiges of the presence of our Holy Temple, and when even among our own leaders there is a trend towards giving it away and viewing it as an unnecessary burden - precisely now, with this discovery, G-d is sending the Jewish People a kiss, as if to say, 'Don't worry, I haven't forgotten you; there are those who want to give it [the Temple Mount] away or take it away from you, but I still have big plans for both you and for the Holy Temple - and the Temple will yet become the focal point of the world once again."
www.israelnationalnews.com...

Another Second Temple quarry uncovered
www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull

They may even come up with an alternate site
The THIRD TEMPLE Entrance
In Alignment With The East Gate
www.excel.net...


Will be interesting to see what happens anyway ...


Here is another theory about the temple ..*it is interesting ..not sure what to think of it though ...
www.thehope.org...

[edit on 14-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

Regarding the two main prophecies

1) Abomination of Desolation

2) End Time Apostasy

The mistake is in stating both are one and the same thing. They are two different end time events, not one event. The Desolation and Apostasy are not one and the same. Combining them leads to a morass of prophetic understandings.

Yes, the Temple = Church is some NT passages.
Thessalonians and Revelation do talk about an end time apostasy within the Church. This has happened, this is a part of history now.

Combining this passage with the Desolation prophecy which is a separate event that will happen physically leads to a wretched understanding of the TIMING of end time events. This will lead any who follow this time line into Great Tribulation, because they will have all the timing wrong.

Apostasy of Church - fulfilled in the 90's. This is history. The Laodicean Age is here.

Abomination of Desolation - this is future, the daily sacrifice will be restarted, and this is the pre-cursor for the Desolation event, which involves armies coming in, surrounding Jerusalem, desolating Jerusalem, halting sacrifice and desolating / desecrating alter.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Very interesting stuff. It is possible the site used will not be right on top of the temple mount (unless a natural earthquake topples it which could be one scenario), but somewhere nearby.