State Verifies Obama's Birth Certificate

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posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 02:09 AM
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Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by MAINTAL
 


That's right. That is how it works in America. You take a person to court, then it is up to you to prove your claims. You say Obama is not a natural born citizen, then it is up to you to prove it. And Obama is not under any obligation to help you. In fact the Fifth Amendment protects his right to refrain from assisting you. So deal with it!

And all of your name calling is a tiresome today as it was two weeks ago.


Then don't bitch when we are suspicious of someone claiming his adminestration will be transparent and not keep secrets like the Bush admin has when this guy won't even substantiate where he was born!

His NOT proving it says all i need to know and that is he has something to hide. With you and everyone saying "why hasn't McCain and the Republicans made a stink about this whe the fact is they HAVE but what is more compelling is why wouldn't Obama put a big foot in our mouths if he is so damn innocent and honest BY SHOWING IT ONCE AND FOR ALL.

Obama has refused to offer his official papers as a state legislator in Illinois, and has been unable to produce correspondence, such as letters from lobbyists and other correspondence from his days in the Illinois state senate. There are also no appointment calendars available of his official activities. “It could have been thrown out,” Obama said while on the campaign trail during the Democratic primary. “I haven’t been in the state Senate now for quite some time.”



Obama has not released his client list as an attorney or his billing records. Obama has maintained that he only performed a few hours of legal work for a nonprofit organization with ties to Tony Rezko, the Chicago businessman convicted of fraud in June. But he has not released billing records that would prove this assertion. Since then it has now been proven he has been a friend of the Chicago Mobster for over 17 years and had taken hundreds of thousands of dollars from the syrian born terrorist financier and racketeer



Obama won’t release his college records from Occidental College where he studied for two years before transferring to Columbia.



Obama’s campaign refuses to give Columbia University, where he earned an undergraduate degree in political science, permission to release his transcripts.


Obama’s college dissertation has simply disappeared from Columbia Universities archives. In July, in response to a flurry of requests to review Obama’s senior thesis at the Ivy League school, reportedly titled “Soviet Nuclear Disarmament,” Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt told NBC News “We do not have a copy of the course paper you requested and neither does Columbia University.”



The senator has not agreed to the release of his application to the Illinois state bar, which would clear up intermittent allegations that his application to the bar may have been inaccurate.



Obama was required to list his clients during his years in the Illinois senate. “Obama listed every client of the firm,” making it impossible to discern which clients he represented. This is more stonewalling

Obama has never released records from his time at Harvard Law School.

Obama also has not disclosed the names of small donors giving $200 or less to his campaign. An exception to the finance-reporting laws exempts the campaign from reporting those who donate less than $200, but that law never envisioned the more than $300 million that has been raised by Obama in small amounts, something so inconceivable but a clever way to hide who his contributors really are. The DNC has never released his BC and the latest announcement that he has a COLB on record there in Honolulu doesn't prove a damn thing when the same records do NOT say he was born in honolulu but just that they have something recorded there. When Obama was in court over this just the other day he he was in Honolulu and could have easily shuts us all up with a Judge saying YES he has proven he is a natural born citizen of the united states but again like most everything else this shyster sneaky snob hides from us or lies about, he refused to show it.

The Republican National Committee has released its small donors, as well as McCain’s, on a public database. You want to be silly then yeah Vote for the guy you don't know a damn thing about because I can ask YOU to prove he is who he says he is and you know what,, YOU' COULD NOT DO IT PERIOD so why should I or anyone else care about what you think of this guy when you don't know anything about him you don't even know why you support him then either




posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 02:13 AM
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Would you release all those records for public review?

If I give you a link, will u upload your birth cert, school transcripts, and all the information you are demanding of Obama?

Can i have experts analyze it and distribute it on the internet?

Let me know, i'll give you a link and you can upload it to my website.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 07:23 AM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


You're welcome to your suspicions. And you bitch more nonsense than any current member of ATS. How's that? So carry on.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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A little bit off topic, but you would think Palin would have had plenty of time to fudge her medical records by now and release them. Oh, I guess it was a miracle from God that her tubiligation from 6 years ago reversed itself.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by MAINTAL
 


You're welcome to your suspicions. And you bitch more nonsense than any current member of ATS. How's that? So carry on.


So let me get this straight, we have a guy that wants to work for US, Did you get that? Yeah the President works FOR US! Not the other way around, so if he wants to work for us, then I have a right to know who the hell he is, where he was born, what his grades were like, what his arrest jacket says if he has one, who his last employer was, who his clientelle was, etc.

Now THIS job just happens to require he be a natural born citizen and to date all we have seen,, no excuse me, ALL WE HAVE HEARD, is news coming second hand, worded so ambiguous as to whether the Obama's birth certificate on file with the Department of Health was originally generated by a Hawaii doctor after giving birth to Obama in Hawaii, or generated in Kenya and subsequently registered by the Obama family in Hawaii. When asked to answer those specific questions, we get more stone walling and date, Obama and his campaign have refused to disclose the name of the doctor delivering the candidate or the precise hospital where he was born.

The main reason doubts persist regarding Obama's birth certificate is this question: If an original Hawaii-doctor-generated and Hawaii-hospital-released Obama birth certificate exists, why wouldn't the senator and his campaign simply order the document released and end the controversy?

That Obama has not ordered Hawaii officials to release the document leaves doubts as to whether an authentic Hawaii birth certificate exists for Obama.

This is just one of the great aggregation of many "secrets" about his backround we have a right to know about and should be given full disclosure. With what we have been through the last eight years with Bush's sneaky stylings and spurious acts of obstruction of justice to lies and deceptions, I would think times being what they are, we would make damn sure we don't put someone like that in that position for that job again. This should be no bigger a formality than when someone asks to see your drivers license before selling you a pack of smokes at the 7/11.

Obama has sealed almost all his public records when any other candidate in our history would not have done that. With all the talk and evidence surrounding this guy from hanging around a church that has a rabid racist for a minister to his many friends with despicable reputations, I would be re-miss in my responsibilty to make and informed decision on this candidate if I DIDN'T INSIST on his above board and honest gesture of full disclosure.

I am not asking for anything more than McCain has already volunteered to us without even having to ask much less subpoena him into furnishing for us.

I don't settle for anything less than what would confirm his birthplace unequivocally and that would be to have him substantiate his place of birth by releasing the actual document where it specifically states what country he was born in. I don't think we have a luxury for error anymore and I don't give a rats ass about you thinking I am bitching more than any other ATS member.

I happen to believe we deserve the best to run our country but the cream don't rise to the top in our Government but the politics sure do, and the last thing I want to see is another four years of a President who wants to know everything about me, my money my guns and my freedom and for me to entrust him with being a good steward of same when he won't meet me half way.

If this was anyone trying to get a Job where you work, being just as elusive, evasive, just as secretive, witholding information you need to hire them, YOU'D Tell him, don't call us we'll call you with Obama saying you can't do that because his Phone number is unlisted. You might even say well, what is it, with Obama saying it's a sealed record.

Ill tell you what would be sealed ,, and that would be his FATE.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


As usual, more mumbo jumbo. If you had read the court filings and the subsequent rulings of the McCain cases and Obama cases, you would have a different picture of what has actually happened.

For instance, you would know that Obama did not seal his documents. You would know that Hawai'i's law automatically protects birth and health records of its residents, and those that were born there. That no "sealing" is required. You would know that in addition to that protection a resident could enumerate exactly who is to have access, thereby prohibiting access to any person not listed.

As far as the law of Hawai'i is concerned, protecting a person's information is not a matter of hiding anything. It is a matter of protection.

So view the issue how you would like. Pretend that you are the employer of politicians. Pretend you have the ability to run background checks. Pretend you have the authority to demand disclosure. Pretend all those things, and whatever else, when it is clear that you are not enabled in any capacity except to post rubbish on the board of ATS.

Whatever.



posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by nj2day

Can i have experts analyze it and distribute it on the internet?

Let me know, i'll give you a link and you can upload it to my website.





Would you release all those records for public review?


If I want your VOTE I would think so but for "some" people, just being charming is good enough for them



If I give you a link, will u upload your birth cert, school transcripts, and all the information you are demanding of Obama?


All that would prove is that I am willing to prove who I am and in the end Obama will not have shed anymore light on who he is, what country he was born in etc. But I guess having my almamatter verify that I do infact have a record, is good enough for "some" people out there.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Areal51


So view the issue how you would like. Pretend that you are the employer of politicians. Pretend you have the ability to run background checks. Pretend you have the authority to demand disclosure. Pretend all those things, and whatever else, when it is clear that you are not enabled in any capacity except to post rubbish on the board of ATS.

Whatever.




Pretend that you are the employer of politicians.


Well at least until the Obama Regime converts our Government from one of the people by the people for the people to one called an Obama Nation where we are all like the collective nation or the borg.

As of right now, yeah guy, THEY work for US and if you don't get that then it is YOU who lives in an imaginary world where the Constitution doesn't exist and never did.



Pretend you have the ability to run background checks


Hey guy, I know Jobs that won't hire you unless you submit to drug tests and polygrapgh tests etc. some won't hire you if your credit is bad. All someone has to do to impress you is say the word "Change" you can believe in and you just take his word for it or you really DON'T think you have a right to know the truth much less prove it.




it is clear that you are not enabled in any capacity except to post rubbish on the board of ATS.


Ya know what rubbish is? Rubbish is someone who criticizes everything I say yet hasn't given me any reasons I should vote for Obama and it is because you are no differen't than I am, at least in that regard as you really don't know JACK about that guy. You just follow him out of blind allegiance because what you know about Obama you could fit on a postage stamp

[edit on 4-11-2008 by MAINTAL]



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


Who are you? I'm not in the business of convincing you to do anything. Make up your own damn mind.

You write these big wordy posts and back them up with nothing. Why? Because you just spouting off your knee-jerk opinions, but you want the appearance of depth. There's nothing deep about anything that you post. And your latest response is typical. You avoid the meat of what I said, which is that you don't know jack about the case, yet you come on board preaching to everybody as if you are an authority on it.
 

You want the power that you condemn. You who want to convince. All this talk about politicians working for us... That is the dream right there! They promise to work for us, but usually end up working for themselves. Politicians are not employed by us. Politicians are employed by city, state, and federal governments. Does your signature appear on the paychecks of government employees? No! Quit dreaming that it does.

If you actually owned a security company that ran background checks on government employees, you would actually have more influence on employee behavior than you do now. Why? Because you, along with the pharmaceutical companies, would lobby Congress not to legalize certain drugs. You would lobby Congress for more stringent drug testing. You'd create scales of reliability and trustworthiness that the personal and professional background checks of potential employees would have to pass. You'd create ideal psychological profiles that some employees for some agencies would have to measure up against for some types of jobs. Because of that, you would in fact have people working on your behalf in government. Those that get hired would be representative of your company. Their performance would reflect on your company. And the politicians would pass more laws and authorize more contracts on your behalf. That's if your work was actually worth a damn.
 

And your entire rant is based on what? Hatred for Obama supporters. And your reasoning? A typical example:

"You just follow him out of blind allegiance because what you know about Obama you could fit on a postage stamp ".

How convenient is that? Everything that you would know about why someone other than yourself would vote for Obama happens to actually fit on a postage stamp!

But the point is that you don't know anything about this case, and you should just admit that to yourself. I am critical of what you said, because I've actually followed the case in detail. And so I can recognize that you are indeed piling up trash on behalf of yourself, and others who would be caught transfixed in your headlights. Sorry, I am not one of those persons. And you should just admit that you're spreading lies and filth that the lawyer pursuing Obama, and the lawyer's supporters in the blogosphere wants you to spread and believe.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:18 AM
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This whole issue is getting tiresome. Greater powers are certainly at play here. Is it a mere coincidence that Obama's paper trail has disappeared, dried up or been locked down. I don't care who you support for president, this just stinks.

This is a man who has already written his memoirs but who has yet to really accomplish anything is his young career. Have you ever visited a Presidential Library? Practically everything is available to view or read. I would expect that a detailed archive on Obama has already been created given his sudden rise to success. If he wins today, his eventual library will be quite empty if no records can be found during his formative years. It seems as if his history was already written/created for him.

IF he wins today everything will magically appear.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:40 AM
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After reviewing all the posts and related links, why do I get the impression that the people who are demanding Hawaii's Department of Health to break the law would be the same ones to jump over Obama that he pressured them to break the law if they did so?

The laws of Hawaii are there for a reason - they were put in place by the people reciding in the state of Hawaii, directly or indirectly. So, this "request" of the people of Hawaii - you are basically saying they are all wrong, you are right, and they don't have the rights needed to make laws you feel should be ignored.

I don't care who supports or doesn't support Obama, but I do have problems with an individual saying that a group of people should have their rights taken away from them. Luckily, the courts agree with me on this.



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by Areal51

Who are you? I'm not in the business of convincing you to do anything. Make up your own damn mind.


You just proved my point area51, and you are like every Obamanoid I have ever seen that argues to defend the marxist senator from Illinois only to fight off allegations made but damn when it comes time to JUSTIFY their OWN damn reasons they are supporting him,, we see the typical temper tantrum tirade you just displayed saying "I'm not in the business of convincing you. Make up your own damn mind"


This of course is not entirely true, as what you are doing is attempting to keep ME from convincing others, having no alternative to offer as reasons FOR supporting Obama other than the spell you are under or the infatuation you have with his studly good looks, clever witt and repartee.

Makes for a better understanding as to what motivates you but last I checked,, he is a Married Man.



You write these big wordy posts and back them up with nothing.


Big Words are a problem for you? Perhaps Ill choose words having only two syllables from now on, I certainly don't want t be accused of having a made you feel inferior with or without your consent. Oh and when you say back "them" up with nothing?? Could you please be more specific, I am at a loss to understand which post you are talking about where Obama himself didn't prove my point.



Why? Because you just spouting off your knee-jerk opinions, but you want the appearance of depth.


Oh I wouldn't say that,, I mean Obamanoids like yourself have a tendency to resort to the same tactics you are using here because your post is nothing more then a critique of mine but one based on your opinion as to what "depth" really is. After getting this far in your post I would say your the type of guy that thinks if beauty is only skin deep then you want beautiful skin damn it!



There's nothing deep about anything that you post.


Like I said, I am talking to Obamanoids like yourself, if I went any deeper you wouldn't know what I was talking about because I'd have to use even bigger words then those you are already having a problem with now.



And your latest response is typical.


lol umm yeah,, most of mine are typical of how I am, the way I am in spite of how YOU are. Or maybe I should say "what" you are.



You avoid the meat of what I said, which is that you don't know jack about the case,


Well that's assuming I saw any "meat" in your post, I may have glanced over that part by mistake trying to avoid all the ad-homs and insults words to the effect I am nothing compared to your staggering intellect.

The difference is I don't care to read your combative hostility centerd diatribe much less feel like I need to explain something so academic as my advice you should try to be more "at cause" than at "effect" and then maybe YOUR posts would be a shining example as an alternative to my typical ones rather than looking like they come from the mind of a child with a temper.


yet you come on board preaching to everybody as if you are an authority on it.


Oh how can that POSSIBLY BE when YOU ARE! Right?

That is besides being the "authority on worthwhile posts" and how to use more depth without the superfluous "big words"



You want the power that you condemn. You who want to convince. All this talk about politicians working for us... That is the dream right there! They promise to work for us, but usually end up working for themselves. Politicians are not employed by us. Politicians are employed by city, state, and federal governments. Does your signature appear on the paychecks of government employees? No! Quit dreaming that it does.


No,, I never said I signed their check nor did I say they are "employed" by us. I said they work for US and they do but now I know why you don't think I prove anything because the thought of my being right and your NEED to be right being in jeopardy, is so devastatingly distasteful to you, that you have even gone as far as saying YOU know more then the founding fathers who wrote that FACT into our Constitution, why they are called "OUR" not the federal state and local governments, but OUR "ELECTED" represenatives. When they don't satisfy our expectations we fire them by not putting them back in office for another term like what happend to many Republicans back in 2006.



If you actually owned a security company that ran background checks on government employees, you would actually have more influence on employee behavior than you do now. Why? Because you, along with the pharmaceutical companies, would lobby Congress not to legalize certain drugs. You would lobby Congress for more stringent drug testing. You'd create scales of reliability and trustworthiness that the personal and professional background checks of potential employees would have to pass. You'd create ideal psychological profiles that some employees for some agencies would have to measure up against for some types of jobs. Because of that, you would in fact have people working on your behalf in government. Those that get hired would be representative of your company. Their performance would reflect on your company. And the politicians would pass more laws and authorize more contracts on your behalf. That's if your work was actually worth a damn.


Was that the Oxford study or the loyola study?

I like all that stuff ya said about Backround checks to make sure the right people get in the right position and is one of the reasons when "Certain" people are attempting to get a Job that my tax dollars pay his salary and he isn't going to comply with backround checks birth certificates things like that,, then I got to ask myself, why hire them.


But the point is that you don't know anything about this case, and you should just admit that to yourself.


I admit it, I don't know that much about the case. (apparently)

Now getting back to what I DO know,, and that is what I DON'T KNOW and I don't know where Barack Obama was originally born. So my NEEDING to know about this case is simple because it only requires one easy to accomplish, easy to understand, simple action, which would make all that complex stuff you know so much more about, a lot easier and that would be PRODUCING THE BC LIKE EVERYONE ELSE INCLUDING JOHN MCCAIN HAS DONE. So if you know so much more than I do when all I really need to know can only be proven by asking you one simple question.

Does Barack Obama's Vault Birth Certificate say unequivocally, that he was born in Honolulu or Kenya, or just what DOES it say? Has anyone ever seen a picture of that part of it that actually saw it for themselves and not heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else, that it does? Hell at this point I'd even settle for that, but we have never even got that as an answer because the person who again said a BC is on record there could NOT answer the question what country was he Born in. So if anyone is spreading lies,, it is you because I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW WHERE HE WAS BORN! and NEITHER DID THE DOH ELSE THEY WOULD HAVE SAID YES HE WAS BORN IN THIS VERY HOSPITAL!









[edit on 4-11-2008 by MAINTAL]



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


You start off nearly every post and pepper nearly every line with "Obamanoid".

Whatever.

When you finally graduate 6th grade, let the world know by forming a real argument, rather than a snotty-nosed quarrel. If you'd read the case and were being reasonable, you'd lay to rest your trifling commentary. At least you would have something reasonable to say, even if you were not convinced of Obama's credentials.

At any rate, it is clear that you cannot survive without "Obamanoids". Without them you lose your identity. Like Berg, you seem to be a would-be hero in search of a villain -- or a villain in search of a hero.

Whatever.

Regardless, denying ignorance is a personal endeavor. Therefore, the fact remains that you must make up your own damn mind. There, I said it twice!


If my reporting on what has actually happened in this case prevents someone from falling for your BS, or the general BS that makes up most of the available information on this case, that is fine by me. But I have not toiled alone to bring about a conservative perspective of this mess. There are others who, regardless of their political persuasion, understand that the ton of crap thrown against the wall in an effort to nail Obama is just that. It's crap. And it's only good for fertilizing yet more crap.

So -- I am sorry to disappoint you, but I am not a member of your church or choir. Preach elsewhere.




[edit on 4-11-2008 by Areal51]



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Areal51
 


Look guy, I could give a rats ass what grade you think I'm in, your opinion I use the word Obamanoid more than you think I should, my lack of depth, my rants, baseless posts, BS posts, my need for a villain, my lack of education, my inadequate details of the case, my typical worthless way I post, my insane idea that our elected officials work for us and how stupid I am for thinking such an absolutley asinine Idea, that I should be banned by the mods, my total lack of proof about EVERYTHING I say,

OR that you think I come in here as if i think I'm an authority and HOW DARE someone who lives in a free country come to a conspiracy forum like this one and have a conspirational opinon that is contrary to yours!

How DARE they try to post their "BS" without checking with AREA51 to ensure it is up to his level of Obsession with the so called case.

HOW DARE anyone use another word for Obama Supporters (Obamanoids) that would evoke images of brain washed Zombie's on a mission to defend his honor when their isn't an honorable thing about that guy other than the word honorable on his stationary.

HOW DARE someone not accept the same measure to judge Obama as YOU have even when their is compelling enough reasons for suspicion Obama is not a US natural Born Citizen

HOW DARE anyone not accept all this second hand information by other people who make arguments from authority as their logical fallacy.

How Dare anyone suggest the most common sense not to mention the most simple way to prove it as being the easiet and most credible way, by actually PRODUCING the Damn BC for us thereby proving YOU right unequivocally absolutley. ohh yeah,, can't be doing that now can we,, I mean something like that is what gives opening up pandoras box a whole new meaning .

Oh and by the way, no one is forcing Obama to break the law, (as if he would have a problem with that LOL ) All he had to do when he was just there was assign someone like that Judge access to it so that he can say yes he saw what we all are asking BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN and until Obama can buy a judge it isn't going to happen the simple common sense way. So the longer he waits, the more suspicious he looks.

How Dare anyone not take YOUR word for it that Obama is a US Natural Born Citizen! He is a CHRISTIAN! HA HA HA yeah riiight.

How Dare someone not take our word for it!

Hey Area51, if it's good enough to put into words, it's good enough to put in writing, HE IS HIDING SOMETHING! And YOU are protecting him.

Later this might be your way of aiding and abetting a criminal




posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


As usual a big wordy post that says absolutely nothing. (By the way, "big wordy" refers to the size of your posts that contains lots of words that end up bearing no meaning. It does not refer to the size of the words that you use.
But go ahead and use words like onomatopoeia and gobbledygook, if you like. Would still be nonsensical blabber.
)

You're a troll. Plain and simple. Now, I know that you take that as a compliment. So don't feign injury. If you cared a whit about this case you would have followed the links and information that I and others have provided. You would do so because your interest compelled you. Or, you would have brought to the table other reasonable perspectives for us to consider. Yet the only thing that your 11 year old mentality could muster was a plate of "Obamanoid". How fruitful.


So from the beginning you were looking to get a rise out of people. How dare we notice!
Not!



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by MAINTAL
 


As usual a big wordy post that says absolutely nothing. (By the way, "big wordy" refers to the size of your posts that contains lots of words that end up bearing no meaning. It does not refer to the size of the words that you use.
But go ahead and use words like onomatopoeia and gobbledygook, if you like. Would still be nonsensical blabber.
)

You're a troll. Plain and simple. Now, I know that you take that as a compliment. So don't feign injury. If you cared a whit about this case you would have followed the links and information that I and others have provided. You would do so because your interest compelled you. Or, you would have brought to the table other reasonable perspectives for us to consider. Yet the only thing that your 11 year old mentality could muster was a plate of "Obamanoid". How fruitful.


So from the beginning you were looking to get a rise out of people. How dare we notice!
Not!



Ok area51, this is your big chance. YOU prove to me that Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu using proof prima facie evidence by either the physical evidence or exhibit A the Vaulted BC OR an officer of the Courts notarized affidavit saying he saw the BC and it said he was born at such and such a time nineteen hundred sixty one in the great state of where ever or the Country of who knows where.

That is ALL I asked for and anything less is just more stone walling and more lies. I am not asking you to do anything more than what John McCain, George Bush, Bill Clinton and more have volunteered to do on their own volition.

Can you do that?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by MAINTAL
 


See the following:

I'm not Obama.


[edit on 5-11-2008 by Areal51]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:04 AM
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reply to post by Sublime620
 


British Columbia? Your kidding right? Although I have the highest respect for your avatar, I do not for the customs training in either of our countries or the amoebas in the State Department. Besides, do you think I would prove it to you over the web? That would be a felony Ron. I would never break the law. Cheers Ron.



[edit on 7-11-2008 by shai hulud]





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