What turns the police from friend to enemy?

I would have included this post in my previous one, but I'd hit the "post reply" button before I was ready...

You really do need to know about the very laws that you'd be sworn to uphold as a Police Officer. Here's an example:
If you were to bust into their house & arrest them, then you'd be committing an offense against their Rights. Simply because the Statutory Laws are written to apply to government officials acting in the line of official duty & people who engage in commercial interests...In this case, if those people you arrest are actually government officials or engaged in commercial business, then you'd be acting within your duty.

Another example:
Yes, it's a Right to Travel, but it's a privilege to drive...The "privilege" comes from engaging in commercial activities! The speed-limit signs, traffic signals & literally all other traffic regulations are posted for official & commercial activities only! No matter how old those laws are, the real wrong committed here is that they're being applied outside of their legal jurisdiction. Look at the actual definitions of those two terms (travel & driving) when you look at the laws as written. You'll find that driving is a term restricted to commercial and government-official actions.

Originally posted by SweetRevenge
...I notice if they break the law even slightly they think you'll turn on them, no matter how many times I tell them 'out of sight, out of mind'.

In essence, this is not far from the truth of Common Law...As long as someone is not harming another (a victimless "crime"), damaging public or private property, or other violating the equal Rights of other people in any way, then it is not a crime & should be left alone. In short, enforcing the Bill of Rights among citizens is the primary job of the police...All other Statutes, Regulations, Codes, Ordinances, etc. are legally enforceable only on government officials and/or people engaged in commercial interests. This really is the way all of those laws are written...It's just that the law enforcement agencies have been under pressure to illegally include private citizens under laws that are inapplicable to citizens.

Originally posted by Kwapp
Perhaps, and what about suicide laws? While committing suicide you usually don't hurt anyone but yourself as well, but it's still illegal. Perhaps the state doesn't want you harming anyone - including yourself.

Technically, suicide is not illegal...Attempted suicide is. How can you prosecute someone who's dead?
Besides, to be honest with the Common Law, neither state or federal legislation has any write or legal authority to bring charges against anyone who's only crime is against himself...Common Law deals with how people interact with each other, not restricting how you treat yourself.

The reason that they don't want you harming yourself & such "laws" are enforced is because the state & federal governments operate as a commercial business entity (literally under control of the Federal Reserve Bank, a privately-owned "loan-making" machine) & they do have a financial stake in your life...At the first thread-link I posted, you can see how they have financial interest in you through your registered Birth Certificate. In short, every Birth Certificate that's registered (instead of recorded as a live birth) with the state or federal authorities generates a certain amount of credit between the government & the Federal Reserve Bank...They're not interested in you, per say, just how much you're worth to them in your credit rating.

Originally posted by Monteriano
A lot of it depends on the situation and your actions. If you watch this video, it will show you how easily cops can change their actions. It is a great video by the way.
www.youtube.com...

This much is true...But it's not just cops that are under such pressure. Pretty much anyone can buckle under consistent "peer-group pressure" under certain circumstances. A look at this study at Stanford University reports that they had to cut off the study early because the behavorial changes noted in all of the subjects became too extreme & was judged as too dangerous to continue.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by badmedia

 

The majority of police live in the same fun house of smoke and mirrors the rest of us also have to navigate.

This much is true...Except that anyone who enters any kind of Office of Public Trust, they are (in effect) voluntarily restricting their normal authority as a Sovereign Citizen in order to carry out their official duties to the Constitution itself...It's just that the government in general has thrown aside their Constitutionally-imposed limitations & that's the source of "social pressure" between the normal citizen & most Officials. Voluntarily taking that Oath of Office is not a position of increased power...It's really a lawfully-imposed limitation on an individual's Sovereign Power to perform the Duties of that Office!

Originally posted by Witness2008
Unfortunatley law enforcement personnel lack training then combine that with the militarization of many large departments. We citizens are at the bottom of the trickle down affect of an ever growing police state.

This is where the Police Officers (& the government in general) falls short in good training...Does the Police Academy actually train & educate the recruits in Constitutional Law, even though they're all required to swear an Oath of Office to it before putting on that badge? No, most Academies train only to uphold Statutory Law on citizens for which those "laws" don't even apply! If you want the "bad attitude people" to get out of law enforcement, you need to change the way they're trained!

[edit on 21-10-2008 by MidnightDStroyer]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by MidnightDStroyer]

I'll bite.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl

Let me give you a first hand story about Professional Courtesy.....

My bro in law (the cop) and wife split up 2 yrs ago. He drinks like a fish. She thinks she's done with it. She moves out. They continue to see one another. One night, she won't take his calls, he decides to go see her. He heads out for her place, drunk as a skunk, with a loaded 45 on the seat beside him. He gets pulled over by local law enforcement for "erratic driving" Did I mention his oxy-contin problem? What happens next????

The coppers drive him, gun and all to his destination! 2 cops in the car. One is his chauffeur, the other DRIVES HIS VEHICLE TO THE SEPARATED WIFES HOUSE. WTF is up with that?????

If the story is true (and not exagerated which I assume it is), then probably because the cops are buddies.

If you see someone you don't know committing a crime, are you going to cal the police on them? Probably. If you see your best friend or mother committing same crime? Probably not. I don't see why you assume cops are any different. We are humans too, lol.


Now, if I pull over my best friend, father, mother, etc and they are drunk driving - no, they are not going to be arrested. I will give them a ride home to make sure they are safe and are not a danger to anyone else.

Seems like the cops in your story did the same thing. It's not like they let your brother continue driving drunk - they drove for him, that way he was no longer a danger to himself and others.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl
AND why, oh why, can't you guys be around someone who is smokin pot, not goin anywhere, not drivin' , just stayin home eatin' oreos?????

You tend to pick up habits from other people, it's human nature. It won't exactly make me look good in my boss's eyes if my wife is a drug addict and I live with her, will it? Also probably wouldn't look too good for me either if I walked into work one day smelling like marijuana.

With that said, no, if I'm at a party and some drugs are being used, no I'm not going to haul them off to jail or call the police on them. "Out of sight, out of mind." But yes, I will try to avoid those people and keep them out of my life. They have made their choice, I have made mine.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl
I'd like to think better of law enforcement, but MAN dude! Please help me out here!!!!!

You are making a mountain out of an anthill.

I was just on a forum and a cop (says so all over his account like he's so special) just randomly attacked my post just to be a jerk. It wasn't the best post ever but it didn't warrant an insult. Do jerks like to be cops or does having that power turn people nasty towards the cowering populace? Chicken or egg...

a thin line separates cops from criminals. they both are not college educated. they both want to satisfy their egos by superseding the law. they both feed into the same system. i see no difference.

Originally posted by CapsFan8
I was just on a forum and a cop (says so all over his account like he's so special) just randomly attacked my post just to be a jerk. It wasn't the best post ever but it didn't warrant an insult. Do jerks like to be cops or does having that power turn people nasty towards the cowering populace? Chicken or egg...

Ya, with more than 1.2 million law enforcement officers in the USA, that one jerk must represent them all.

That's not stupid at all, you are so right. Sigh, I remember yesterday a Burger King worker shortchanged me. Damn burger king workers. They are ALL criminals and jerks. Burger king should be outlawed. Curse burger king for their nazi police state!

Originally posted by Kwapp

Originally posted by CapsFan8
I was just on a forum and a cop (says so all over his account like he's so special) just randomly attacked my post just to be a jerk. It wasn't the best post ever but it didn't warrant an insult. Do jerks like to be cops or does having that power turn people nasty towards the cowering populace? Chicken or egg...

Ya, with more than 1.2 million law enforcement officers in the USA, that one jerk must represent them all.

That's not stupid at all, you are so right. Sigh, I remember yesterday a Burger King worker shortchanged me. Damn burger king workers. They are ALL criminals and jerks. Burger king should be outlawed. Curse burger king for their nazi police state!

You've been a jerk this entire thread. Constantly twisting the things people say, and taking things to the extreme in the opposite direction. Even posting straight out lies, like the link you posted saying drug laws started in 1600's, when you didn't even read your own link that showed the first drug law was in 1845, and was for alcohol and was repealed in 1847, and it was only 1 single state. So I guess it's 2 out of 1.2 million.

reply to post by Kwapp


I am completely insulted by your presumption!
If the story is true (and not exagerated which I assume it is), then probably because the cops are buddies. Yes, they were buddies and no, I wasn't exaggerating at ALL!


Now, if I pull over my best friend, father, mother, etc and they are drunk driving - no, they are not going to be arrested. I will give them a ride home to make sure they are safe and are not a danger to anyone

My point here is that INSTEAD of returning him to his OWN home,(which would have been a great example of professional courtesy and would have made sure he "wasn't a danger to anyone") they delivered his drunk self, the loaded weapon AND his vehicle to his estranged WIFE'S place. ( NOW it's aiding and abetting)

If you see someone you don't know committing a crime, are you going to cal the police on them? Probably. If you see your best friend or mother committing same crime? Probably not. I don't see why you assume cops are any different. We are humans too, lol.

Ummmm, the big difference that you didn't mention is that you have "sworn to uphold the law" AND by doing something like this "on the clock", why, that seems like you're choosing to shirk your duty.

Looks like a big case of rationalize and justify to me. One set of rules for us, another set of rules for you and yours.


You are making a mountain out of an anthill.

And you are firmly entrenched in double standard world.



[edit on 22-10-2008 by ThatDGgirl]

What people need to understand is that we have an adversarial justice system. The job of a Police Officer is to make a legal case against someone. Truth and innocence is decided at trial, not upon being charged with a crime. Sadly, in some cases, that even means innocent people. It's a fact of the legal system and sometimes I get a little sick and tired of starry eyed admin of justice students who don't realize that, - or haven't been taught that yet. And it's why there are innocent people who've been exonerated through DNA evidence who've been on death row.

Even if you contact the police yourself to file a report, there is the chance you could be investigated, even if totally innocent. I'm sure the Officers and Attorneys on here will affirm that. Basically, you'll save yourself grief if you don't invite "the man" into your life to begin with.

The way our legal system works is that any one of us could be "criminals" technically. Don't think so? Read on.

Got any unused prescriptions in your medicine cabinet? Misdemeanor. Ever transported fruit across State lines while on a road trip in the US? Possible gross misdemeanor. Smokey and the Bandit was about a "beer run" because it was illegal (a felony) to bring in beer from out of State in some southern States in the 70's. Anybody have a brew while BBQ'ing this last weekend? Anybody go over 55 on the freeway today? Anybody fail to signal within 25 feet?

We could all be "criminals" depending on the situation. And we have an adversarial justice system, law enforcement, prosecution and defense for this very reason.

- This is why the founding fathers in the United States drafted the 4th and 5th amendments to Constitution. It is there to protect US citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures and people acting against themselves in an adversarial legal situation.

The Police are not there to be your friend, they are not there to "stop crime" they are there to make a case against someone that a prosecuting attorney can use in court. That simple. That is their role in the Justice system. Whether that case holds up in Court is up to you knowing your rights, your Attorney and the DA that prosecutes you. In fact, the Police have no duty to protect you, innocent people, or your community and no less than the US Supreme Court has upheld this in court cases ever since 1856.

That said, the Police are there to serve an important and incredibly vital point in maintaining societies stability. They are also working class folks who get into the job for what it is, like teachers, to contribute to society, not to make money.

However, an equal amount get into the job for the wrong reasons. And even good minded people can have their ideals and ethics tainted by inter-departmental politics and too much power. Coupled with the militarization of todays Police forces. This taints the law and legal precedings. It's wrong

The biggest fundamental factor in society is this; accountability. Both for citizens and for citizens who are Police Officers. Todays modern Police culture has created an "us and them" atmosphere, where anyone without Government ink on their paycheck is presumed a ward of the State and to be treated like a peon, literally. And this is an ethical and moral problem.

What I think needs to happen, is more respect for citizens who don't have Government ink on their paychecks and more respect for the Police as well and the job they do. Because in both cases, it entails respect for something a lot bigger than any of us; respect for the law and civilized society. Any civilized society is based on rule of law and civilized behavior.

So, give the Police a break. They aren't your enemy. But know your rights and flex your rights. Because while they aren't your enemy, they are most definitely not your friend. And aspiring criminal justice students would be wise to realize this, because any decent attorney would make mincemeat out of their first case if they don't

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl


I am completely insulted by your presumption!

You should be.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl

My point here is that INSTEAD of returning him to his OWN home,(which would have been a great example of professional courtesy and would have made sure he "wasn't a danger to anyone") they delivered his drunk self, the loaded weapon AND his vehicle to his estranged WIFE'S place. ( NOW it's aiding and abetting)

Yeah, because cops are god and we know EVERYTHING about every single person in the world. I even know what you ate today and what clothes you are wearing, and what sites you are browsing now and what song you are listening to on the radio!

*queues twilight zone music*


I'm sure when the officers asked your drunk brother where they should leave him, and he answered "my wifes house is closest", I'm sure they knew every intimate detail of his relationship like you do!!


Us cops are all knowing and all seeing!!

LOL.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl

Ummmm, the big difference that you didn't mention is that you have "sworn to uphold the law" AND by doing something like this "on the clock", why, that seems like you're choosing to shirk your duty.

Looks like a big case of rationalize and justify to me. One set of rules for us, another set of rules for you and yours.

It's called using your discretion.

Originally posted by badmedia

You've been a jerk this entire thread. Constantly twisting the things people say, and taking things to the extreme in the opposite direction.

So have you.

Originally posted by badmedia
Even posting straight out lies, like the link you posted saying drug laws started in 1600's, when you didn't even read your own link that showed the first drug law was in 1845, and was for alcohol and was repealed in 1847, and it was only 1 single state.

Uh noes, I got one thing wrong. END OF TEH WORLD!

You have gotten lots of things wrong in this thread as well and spouted it off as fact until others corrected you. Should I point that out as well and whine about it like a toddler?

Originally posted by badmedia
So I guess it's 2 out of 1.2 million.

More like 6.2 billion out of 6.2 billion. Of course, people like you only complain when cops do it. Envy is a wonderfully magnificent creature.



[edit on 22-10-2008 by Kwapp]

reply to post by Kwapp


UNBELIEVABLE!

You are pleased that you insulted me??!! I told you the straight up truth and see where it got me?

And you absolutely cannot admit that the lawdawgs in this particular case made a bad judgement call? They were his BUDDIES! OF COURSE they knew he was separated from her!

People like you are the biggest reason that law enforcement has such a bad rap. You are a poor representative for cops everywhere.

Originally posted by Kwapp
So have you.

Uh noes, I got one thing wrong. END OF TEH WORLD!

You have gotten lots of things wrong in this thread as well and spouted it off as fact until others corrected you. Should I point that out as well and whine about it like a toddler?

Yes, point it out. The only thing even close to being mentioned is someone trying to push off a speeding ticket law(which isn't even a social crime) when I questioned your "99% of the laws have been here for 175+ years". Of which, you have yet to back up, and when you did try, you posted bogus information that I did just point out.

I would love for you to do so.

More like 6.2 billion out of 6.2 billion. Of course, people like you only complain when cops do it. Envy is a wonderfully magnificent creature.
[edit on 22-10-2008 by Kwapp]

And once again you completely ignore and LIE about what people have said. As I pointed out, my uncle - who is actually a decent cop is the person who told me about social crimes, and he complains that he has to enforce them. I grew up with many cops in my family. I know all about the quotas and such. And once again, he is a the chief of police for my hometown city.

Originally posted by ThatDGgirl
reply to post by Kwapp

 

UNBELIEVABLE!

You are pleased that you insulted me??!! I told you the straight up truth and see where it got me?

And you absolutely cannot admit that the lawdawgs in this particular case made a bad judgement call? They were his BUDDIES! OF COURSE they knew he was separated from her!

People like you are the biggest reason that law enforcement has such a bad rap. You are a poor representative for cops everywhere.

I'm thinking he is just a troll, and is purposely trying to be the bad guy to get under peoples skin. I just have a hard time believing anyone could act the way he is in this thread and be serious.

Originally posted by badmedia

I'm thinking he is just a troll, and is purposely trying to be the bad guy to get under peoples skin. I just have a hard time believing anyone could act the way he is in this thread and be serious.


Well, he has singlehandedly proved the OP's point. And he's ALSO proving the fact that if your IQ is too high, the copshop doesn't want you.

Hi all, first reply.

Been surfing and lurking ATS for several years, but this was a topic I wanted to comment on.

I'm the author of the afore(or after mentioned) comment and it's a lengthy one. But this was a really interesting thread I thought deserved commenting on and even joining up to participate in because of the weight of the issues involved.

I am a patriot. I strongly support my Government. But I'd like to make sure we have rule of law in this country.

Anyway, hi, and I'm not sure what'll get posted first, my anonymous comment or this, so hello in advance to everybody.

reply to post by badmedia


Maybe Kwapp is some type of law enforcement, most likely a security guard. Kwapp is unable to grasp the points of the debate in this thread and rushes to defend the indefensible.

If kwapp is some type of law enforcement kwapp would be a good example of what most citizens are forced to deal with every day. I have seen some truley inept police with a grudge against his fellow citizens and the power to exercise that grudge.

The real dangers come from the courts that back up and excuse the ineptitude. I worked with many inmates who found themselves in the unwelcome company of uneducated, fearful and angry police...their first introduction to a system that would strip them of every freedom. The whole system is corrupt from the police to the judges.

reply to post by JackSparrow


It's always good to see a new member..Welcome. Can't wait to see your contribution.

Originally posted by badmedia
when I questioned your "99% of the laws have been here for 175+ years". Of which, you have yet to back up, and when you did try, you posted bogus information that I did just point out.

Since when are drug laws 99% of laws? I never posted "bogus information" (in the way you are saying I did). You accuse me of doing things and twisting people's words around, while at the same time doing it yourself.

"Do as I say, not as I do."

Or if you're a cop, don't do it at all!


Might do you some good to get out of mom's basement for some fresh air once and a while, and actually interact with real police officers, and not forming your views on them based on what you watch on TV or the internet.







[edit on 22-10-2008 by Kwapp]

reply to post by 38181


I thought about becoming an MP for a while, but I want to see how things play out for our military the next year or so. Thanks for the advice though!