What turns the police from friend to enemy?

But, Kwapp, you persist in following this discussion by continuously explaining yourself. LOL...

If you are truly one of the "good ones" and not one of the Controlling Obnoxious Pri**s that so many of us run into 90% of the time, then there would be no need to vindicate yourself, would there???

Shouldn't really matter as long as you know the truth, now should it???

I've gotten a few breaks from the "good" ones...it's the gung-ho hang em high ones that I believe joe public has the problem with.

~Holly

edit to add: You asked if it was only officers that verbally assaulted me????

Not without getting a piece of my mind...these guys would have arrested me...that is just what they were pushing for.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Holly N.R.A.]

reply to post by sayzaar


The police are definately NOT cowards. And they definately DO put their lives on the line for US when we need them to.

There is a personality trait on the MMPI called, "danger-seeking". Both police and crooks share this trait, which is why people often say police and crooks are cut from the same mold.

I have met 2 outstanding policemen in my life. I guess the others I've come in contact with have written me speeding tickets (for which I've thanked them) or arrested me, which was my own fault or lack of judgement at the time ... or, simply bad luck.

I was just thinking today, that if we're attacked would the police be told to attack us too, or would they rebel and defend us.

I think many would rebel because they believe in justice, as the archangel Michael slaying the devil ... for what that's worth.

Basically, anyone who puts his life on the line every day for excitement, i wouldn't consider a particularly 'stable' personality. AND don't the police have the highest suicide rate, because they must fight the Code of Honor and they must fight being corrupted and when they mature, as you and I, they find out it's lonely at the top.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Kwapp

Who is "us" though, "us" that should be protected? Should everyone be protected by police? Just the good people? Or the criminals too?


Surely criminals do not fit into that category of "us" that police should be protecting and serving. So how do we define criminals? Aren't criminals people who break the law?

"us" are the citizens who work and pay for your job. So yes, criminals do fit into that category.

Just goes to show how ridiculous your arguments are.

So if we protected, everyone including criminals, what would we be protecting them from?

Sounds like a paradox to me.

?

I've gotten a few breaks from the "good" ones...it's the gung-ho hang em high ones that I believe joe public has the problem with.

So the "bad cops" or "pricks" as you put it are the officers who actually do their job and don't let you off for breaking the law?

That's pretty messed up, Holly.

Originally posted by counterterrorist


The police are definately NOT cowards. And they definately DO put their lives on the line for US when we need them to.

I have met 2 outstanding policemen in my life. I guess the others I've come in contact with have written me speeding tickets (for which I've thanked them) or arrested me, which was my own fault or lack of judgement at the time ... or, simply bad luck.

Counterterrorist you are a very smart man and very mature. You also show great character by actually owning up to your actions and admit that the only person to blame for being arrested/ticketed is yourself.

People these days are sooo lazy and just like to pass blame on to others. Be glad you aren't one of those people.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

I was just thinking today, that if we're attacked would the police be told to attack us too, or would they rebel and defend us. I think many would rebel because they believe in justice, as the archangel Michael slaying the devil ... for what that's worth.

Who would we be attacked by?


No, the police aren't going to obey orders and start killing innocent people. Being a cop is a job, remember. We can quit at any time. It's not like we are in the military and go to prison for deserting or disobeying orders, LOL.

Originally posted by counterterrorist


AND don't the police have the highest suicide rate, because they must fight the Code of Honor and they must fight being corrupted and when they mature, as you and I, they find out it's lonely at the top.

I don't think police have the highest suicide rate, but it's definitely higher than your standard person who works a normal job.


The reason isn't because we are fighting the "code of honor" or "fight being corrupted" as you suggest. It's because our job is simply one of the most difficult and stressful jobs out there.


All day long we are dealing with people who hate us. It's like working in customer service for walmart, just 10x as bad since people will actually attack you and shoot you. It's not fun.

We deal with the part of society that average people never see. The truly bad, filthy, and disgusting "humans" that you didn't even know existed. Your average Joe wakes up at 7 and works 9-5 then comes home to his family and goes to sleep and rinses and repeats. He never sees the truly low sect of society. We do. And we do every day.



And the hours... 12 hour rotating shifts, not including mandatory overtime such as daily court appearances and other such stuff. Try that. You have no time at all for family life, and the majority of officers are single and never have kids. It's a very sad and lonely life.

Why do we take so much abuse and live such sad lives for minimal pay? Because we truly want to make a difference and help our community and make the world a better place. No, kids, no one ever becomes a police officer to abuse their "power", and if they do they are in for a rude awakening to what it's really like and don't last long on the force.

Some people have this notion that all we do is drive around all day in our cars listening to music while eating donuts, and pulling over people who are speeding. No, lol, that's not what it's like kiddies.


[edit on 23-10-2008 by Kwapp]

Originally posted by Kwapp
So if we protected, everyone including criminals, what would we be protecting them from?

Sounds like a paradox to me.

Because it's not up to you to decide who the criminals are and aren't. You only identify suspects and possible crimes. That is what they have judges for. You'd think a cop would understand the terms innocent until proven guilty.

So you think if someone is speeding, they don't no longer deserve protection?

This is pathetic I'm even having to mention this if you actually are a cop.

Originally posted by badmedia
That is what they have judges for. You'd think a cop would understand the terms innocent until proven guilty.

That's a common misconception.

It is the court, and only the courts, that work under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty." Clearly, law enforcement is not under that restraint. The act of arresting and booking a person is performed under the assumption that the person being arrested is guilty of a crime.

Peoples perceptions on the police change quickly.
You might be mad as hell for a copper pulling you over for speeding, or getting up you for J-walking.
But in the end, If you were getting chased by a gang, or had someone in your house.
Who you gonna call... cause I doubt it'd be ghost busters.


I am studying to become a Police officer myself, and my studies are almost complete.
I'm not a bad person, I will be lawful, respectful and sometimes lenient.

You get some A-hole cops, you get some good ones.

Some are government ass-kissing robots.
Some are humans.

Originally posted by Kwapp

?

I've gotten a few breaks from the "good" ones...it's the gung-ho hang em high ones that I believe joe public has the problem with.

So the "bad cops" or "pricks" as you put it are the officers who actually do their job and don't let you off for breaking the law?

That's pretty messed up, Holly.

LOL...

actually, it's not messed up, because you pulled a blind man...you read what you wanted it to mean, not what it was in reference to...and of course commented on the part of the original post that you could put a "twist" on.

The "gung -ho, hang 'em high" cops I refer to are NOT the ones doing their job...they are the ones that get away with anything they choose to impose on the public and come out smelling like roses. There are many that do despite your saying "all" cops are reprimanded...they fall thru the cracks just like a lot of other's in this society.

As was said earlier that there is a fine line between a cop and a criminal...and many cops make dam* good criminals....that is why they hide it so well...not just patrol officers...but sometimes those in the upper echelon are pulling the strings.(These guys have political connections, like nobody's business)

If anyone needs to look outside the box, it's you, my friend...just because you work for "authority" does not mean you need to give up questioning it...does it???

~Holly



[edit on 23-10-2008 by Holly N.R.A.]

reply to post by Holly N.R.A.

actually, it's not messed up, because you pulled a blind man...you read what you wanted it to mean, not what it was in reference to...and of course commented on the part of the original post that you could put a "twist" on.

THANK YOU HOLLY!!!!!

It seems to me, that all he has responded to positively, have been the posters writing "Cops are awesome! Do whatever they say. They are the LAWDAWGZ!"

Any criticism is blown off as exaggeration or ignored. This BOZO em
bodies the OP subject.

Nice to know I'm not the only one....................

Originally posted by MrPenny

Originally posted by badmedia
That is what they have judges for. You'd think a cop would understand the terms innocent until proven guilty.

That's a common misconception.

It is the court, and only the courts, that work under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty." Clearly, law enforcement is not under that restraint. The act of arresting and booking a person is performed under the assumption that the person being arrested is guilty of a crime.

Did you read the post I was responding to? Where he says he isn't supposed to protect the "criminals"?

Police arrest suspects, not criminals. The cop arrests someone the believe could be guilty of a crime, and they have probable cause to believe that. You even said it yourself - assumption that the person is guilty.

In other words, if he thinks that anyone he pulls over or has to deal with is a criminal, then it's not his job to protect them. That is just silly. That is the police state attitude, and it is the attitude of the bad cops who treat anyone they come in contact with as a criminal.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Kwapp
So if we protected, everyone including criminals, what would we be protecting them from?

Sounds like a paradox to me.

Because it's not up to you to decide who the criminals are and aren't. You only identify suspects and possible crimes. That is what they have judges for. You'd think a cop would understand the terms innocent until proven guilty.

So you think if someone is speeding, they don't no longer deserve protection?

This is pathetic I'm even having to mention this if you actually are a cop.

Obviously you not only have no understanding of the basics of the US justice system, but the outside world as well outside of ATS.com.

I'm not even going to debate you further, I can see it's a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Kwapp

Originally posted by WhamBamTYM
I think we all have a sort of low-level understanding that the police should protect us and uphold the law.

Who is "us" though, "us" that should be protected? Should everyone be protected by police? Just the good people? Or the criminals too?


Surely criminals do not fit into that category of "us" that police should be protecting and serving. So how do we define criminals? Aren't criminals people who break the law?


And cops only arrest and fine people who break the law. So doesn't that mean that police, are indeed, doing just what they should be doing?

Like hell they do, they absolutely go after the innocent that they have bad vibes about, and nothing else. Their intuition is so developed that we don't really need judges or law anymore. In fact, we don't even need fact! They are above the law, and they darn well do what they want, with the full blessing of the corrupt courts.


Sorry for going off on a philosophical rant here, but am I not right?

NO, NO, NO! You are stinking absolutely wrong!

Originally posted by WhamBamTYM
They should not be revenue-generators. When I see a citizen pulled over by an officer I just know that he's being issued a ticket for an absurd amount of money for some trivial "offense".

Maybe, maybe not. I'd say about 65% of the cars I pull over are for traffic violations, but still a good chunk of them (obviously 35%) are for other things, usually more serious crimes.

I'd say 65% of your job is tax collection. There are some idiots pretending to drive, and ignoring basic law, but admit it, you can pull anyone over that you want, and give a lame law written just so you can pull them over. I know, my stinkin brother was a tax-collector/gangster.

Now, the thing is, sometimes pulling someone over for a traffic violation also reveals other things, like stolen merchandise in their car, drugs, or even arrest warrants for very serious offenses. So you have to figure those in too.

Now you are talking about doing your job. Accidentally.

Originally posted by WhamBamTYM
This erodes my respect for police officers.

Think outside the box, rather than in.

Yes, think outside the box. Police officers are not law enforcement, they are public suppression, at public expense.

Why not instead have no respect for people who speed and allow themselves to get pulled over in the first place?

Oh, yes, I have no respect for those other lawless individuals, also. But because you are lawless in a different manner does not make me respect you and not him. If I actually believed that there are any law abiding cops, I would respect that individual. And if you are in fact, I am amazed, I never thought I would run across you! The lone exception to the rule. But the very fact you do not admit to the massive corruption and lawlessness of the legal system, is an indication you are at least an accomplice to their lawlessness. So don't be surprised that I don't waste any respect on you.


After all, if they stayed under the speed limit and didn't break any other obvious traffic laws (like going through a red light or stop sign which is much more dangerous to others than speeding), then the cops wouldn't BE ABLE to be "revenue generators".

Wrong. They, and you, do exactly that. I am very careful to follow traffic law, and still get pulled over and written up, falsely. I used to try and fight it, but the judges are just as corrupt. Quit pretending to be a good guy.


Of course, it's easy to just blame the police. But in the end, they are just doing their job. The people who force the police to pull them over aren't doing their job, their job is not speeding and being a danger and breaking laws.

If you were merely doing your job, and enforcing the law, I would actually respect you. I respect honest, and 'good' cops. I have a great respect for the law in this country. I do not respect or honor dirty cops. I have never met a good cop. And I have met a lot. My formerly good brother was a cop, and told me stories about clean weapons being carried to 'find' on a clean suspect, and lots of other current dirt. I have had nothing but nightmare experiences while obeying the law, and attempting to do the right thing. That is irrelevant to 'law enforcement'. Cut the Kwapp.





[edit on 22-10-2008 by Kwapp]

Originally posted by Kwapp
Obviously you not only have no understanding of the basics of the US justice system, but the outside world as well outside of ATS.com.

I'm not even going to debate you further, I can see it's a waste of my time.

lol, you weren't debating in the first place. You've done nothing more than take everything anyone says out of context this entire thread.

What makes someone a criminal? Answer the question. Do criminals have no rights to be protected? So if someone is caught speeding, does that mean it's no longer your job to protect them?

As I said, it is your job to protect the citizens, that includes anyone who at the moment may be breaking a law. It is up to the judge to decide the punishment, and what loss of rights they will have. Not your job.

You don't decide who is the criminal, you try to identify people who are breaking a law, or could be. There is a difference, and it's rather pathetic a supposed cop doesn't know or understand that.




[edit on 24-10-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia


What makes someone a criminal? Answer the question.

Well Sally, I think that's probably someone who is... you know... breaking the law.

Originally posted by badmedia
Do criminals have no rights to be protected? So if someone is caught speeding, does that mean it's no longer your job to protect them?

Protected from what? Answer me that question.

Originally posted by badmedia
As I said, it is your job to protect the citizens, that includes anyone who at the moment may be breaking a law. It is up to the judge to decide the punishment, and what loss of rights they will have. Not your job.

Correct that it is not my job. I just write the summons for them to appear in court where the court handles it.

Obviously here you are just a troll who probably is 13 years old and has never driven, or you would know that when you actually get a speeding ticket you can plead guilty and pay the fine or not guilty by checking a box on it and then go to court. A ticket/summons isn't a judgement... It's a SUMMONS. To appear in court. Where you will get your judgement.

Originally posted by badmedia
You don't decide who is the criminal, you try to identify people who are breaking a law, or could be.

www.merriam-webster.com...



Main Entry:
criminal
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1626

1 : one who has committed a crime

2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime


bad troll is bad.






[edit on 24-10-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Gregarious

Like hell they do, they absolutely go after the innocent that they have bad vibes about, and nothing else. Their intuition is so developed that we don't really need judges or law anymore. In fact, we don't even need fact! They are above the law, and they darn well do what they want, with the full blessing of the corrupt courts.

Ahh, there's Gregarious, the master expert on law enforcement and police, who gets his information from NYPD Blue.

Originally posted by Gregarious
Now you are talking about doing your job. Accidentally.

So how else can that be done, unless we randomly conduct searches on people for the stolen merchandise and drugs, which I'm sure you would also complain about?

Originally posted by Gregarious
Wrong. They, and you, do exactly that. I am very careful to follow traffic law, and still get pulled over and written up, falsely. I used to try and fight it, but the judges are just as corrupt. Quit pretending to be a good guy.

I'm sure you do. That's what everyone says. I mean, who's going to actually admit they broke the law, even if they really did and they know it? It's counter-productive for that person.

"Why yes, I did break the law, I'm sorry officer, here's my hands, please cuff me and take me to jail!"

LOL.

Originally posted by Kwapp
Well Sally, I think that's probably someone who is... you know... breaking the law.

So is anyone who has ever speeded then a criminal? If they run a stop sign, are they are criminal? As I said before, you protect the citizens, and citizens can and are the criminals. You suspect them of committing a crime. You take the evidence your suspicion is based on in front of a judge(or jury), who then decides if that person is a criminal or not. At all times they are citizens and get and deserve their full rights. You do not decide who the criminals are. You must treat everyone, even people you suspect of crimes with respect. There is nothing you can say that will change this fact, you can only show that you do not follow the law yourself if you do not follow those principles.

Protected from what? Answer me that question.

Protect them from abuse. No matter if that is from other inmates, or insuring their rights are respected to the best of your ability. Again, this is not debatable, it's the law. The only thing you can once again do is prove you are a bad cop who doesn't follow the law.

Correct that it is not my job. I just write the summons for them to appear in court where the court handles it.

So at what point are you deciding someone is a criminal? Again you don't.

Obviously here you are just a troll who probably is 13 years old and has never driven, or you would know that when you actually get a speeding ticket you can plead guilty and pay the fine or not guilty by checking a box on it and then go to court. A ticket/summons isn't a judgement... It's a SUMMONS. To appear in court. Where you will get your judgement.

Reverse those numbers and you'll have my age, and I have never in my life gotten a speeding ticket. I'm not the kind of person who gets in a hurry for anyone, and when I was young 3/4's of the cops were my uncles, and the rest knew me, so I got my rear beaten at home if I got caught speeding. I know many cops, and often stop to talk to them. I've been driving since I was 13.

But have you ever noticed that you have to keep assuming and making things up about me? Do you think that might be because you don't have a clue.

1 : one who has committed a crime

2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime

bad troll is bad.

As we have already established, you just get suspects, you do not define who is the criminal, the judge does. If you would like that job, then go to law school and learn something.

Originally posted by Kwapp

Originally posted by Gregarious

Like hell they do, they absolutely go after the innocent that they have bad vibes about, and nothing else. Their intuition is so developed that we don't really need judges or law anymore. In fact, we don't even need fact! They are above the law, and they darn well do what they want, with the full blessing of the corrupt courts.

Ahh, there's Gregarious, the master expert on law enforcement and police, who gets his information from NYPD Blue

I think I may have worked on that show once, and I am more aware than most of how the truth is manipulated for various reasons to make a good story. No, my knowledge comes from alot of time reading in law libraries, and actually reading the Constitution, our laws, and our history.

Originally posted by Gregarious
Now you are talking about doing your job. Accidentally.

So how else can that be done, unless we randomly conduct searches on people for the stolen merchandise and drugs, which I'm sure you would also complain about?

So you are saying it is acceptible to pull over someone with only a hunch, and detain, search, and inconvenience? This is also known as unreasonable search...Now if you in fact have someone breaking a law, yes, then that is justified. But you know full good and well that the laws you use to pull over someone suspicious, are written solely for the reason to give them unreasonable search. Just your far superior instincts.

Originally posted by Gregarious
Wrong. They, and you, do exactly that. I am very careful to follow traffic law, and still get pulled over and written up, falsely. I used to try and fight it, but the judges are just as corrupt. Quit pretending to be a good guy.

I'm sure you do. That's what everyone says. I mean, who's going to actually admit they broke the law, even if they really did and they know it? It's counter-productive for that person.

"Why yes, I did break the law, I'm sorry officer, here's my hands, please cuff me and take me to jail!"

Funny you should say that. Did you read my story about how I did exactly that with 6 scum, oh excuse me, deputies, assaulting me under color of law? I WANTED them to arrest me, so I could show the world how corrupt they are, and how they were abusing the victims of the SD Firestorm.

LOL.

It is lawless, or bad, cops like you who could be used by myself to completely disreguard laws and regulations. But I won't allow you to influence me to break the law. I follow it, in SPITE of the 'law-enforcements' best efforts to demonize law. Just because there are lawbreakers, and they usually claim innocense, does not mean all people are automatically wrong, only in your warped police mind. Wake up.

Originally posted by sayzaar


I think alot of people who join the force do it for the power over others, but what about the genuine ones who do it to help others and generally help society.What is it that turns THEM against the people. Back in the days of Nazi germany and Stalinist Russia, to now, even in our time, police are turning against their own people.WHY?
I personaly believe that they are cowards! They believe that if they work FOR the beast, then the beast won't eat THEM!!
Of course they are indoctrinated and manipulated to some extent, but can they ALL be brainwashed to that extent, where they will brutalize, even kill there own citizens? I believe they are not that stupid. They must be either WILLING or FEARFUL ???

Well, Sayzaar, after all this kwapp, has your original question been answered? Seems to me that most start with a genuine desire to better society. And then, reality sets in. They are exposed to the lowest of the low on a regular/daily basis. And they change, due to said exposure. They become very cynical and dualistic..... US vs THEM.... and sadly WE (the rest of the public) get lumped in with THEM (the lowest of the low), because we aren't in the US group (lawdawgz). I think it's pretty simple. You got it all right from the horse's mouth. (that would be kwapp)

I don't think they're cowards, and I don't think it's ever even occurred to them that "the beast won't eat them". I think it's a case of mass disillusionment from which there is no return.

I just have to wonder, if it's such a miserable and unrewarding existance, why they do what they do? Maybe there's a large dose of masochism thrown into the mix.

The amount of envy here is just purely hilarious. Your arguments are not even making sense now and you have missed my blatantly obvious points several times, showing that you really have no social skills at all and probably really do live in mom's basement. Or maybe you just have trouble reading. Oh, but you read law books at the library and the constitution! That makes you a professional on how the law works these days, I guess. It's no wonder you have trouble with the police. Heh. But what was I trying to do debating with people on a conspiracy site any way?

The aliens are coming to get us!! And the police are all working for the aliens! Look out! AHH!

No wonder police officers also have to sometimes do anal probes.

*twirls finger in a counter-clockwise motion next to head*

But you're probably just a troll trying to get my goat. I'm done here.






[edit on 24-10-2008 by Kwapp]