Bodies strapped to seats on AA77, Pentagon?

Originally posted by Griff

Something's off with this picture.

Think about this for a second.

SPreston's claim is that there was a 16 ft hole, and she was sitting 40 ft from THAT, and so she was inside the wingspan..... etc.

BUT...... she never says that the hole was 16 ft. This is SPreston's claim, and one that he MUST stick to in order for his delusional fantasy to have any legs.

BUT, if you accept that the plane DIDN'T make a 16 ft hole, but rather a 90+/- ft hole, and she was sitting 40 ft from there...... then she was sitting OUTSIDE the plane's wingspan, and so wouldn't have been hit by debris OR jet fuel. And thus making her statement true and believeable.

So which is more likely?

1-That your friend(s) are correct when they say they saw a plane hit the Pentagon... and the woman outlined by SPreston was sitting outside the wingspan of the plane. And was very lucky!!!!!

or

2- she was sitting within 40 ft of a hole that an alleged massive bomb that was placed 20 ft away in a trailer, yet still had the punch to go through 18" of newly reinforced masonry..... and yet survived the massive overpressure and masonry shrapnel from this alleged device?

Originally posted by tezzajw

You're predicting actions that I have not yet made, Seymour. Why?

Because, like I said, you do this already on other topics.

Why would I believe you would act differently now?

Thank you for trying to get this away from a personal attack and back on thread. The claim of bodies in seats is crucial because the pieces and parts were cleaned up so quickly.....As I have said, I have investigated aircraft accidents.......Had the Jet A in the fuel tanks exploded, there would have been body parts everywhere, as well of serial number identifiable aircraft parts, particularly seats. If there were bodies in seats, where is the proof? (and, please, no more alleged witness statements.......Show me evidence, not witness statements that can be coerced.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Yet, even after admitting that you can not support the claim that there were bodies found strapped to airline seats,

And right there's the proof of what I just posted about your behavior.

You were shown quotes from a couple of first responders that they saw this. This is the "support" of that claim.

Yet you hand wave it away.

There were other photos of bodies that were used in court, and accepted as evidence by both sides. You were shown this also. This qualifies as proof.

Will you now admit, that at the very least, there were DNA id'ed bodies of passengers from 77 found INSIDE the Pentagon? This was also accepted in court..... I have a complete list of who and where they were found, but it is in an 18MB Flash file, so I don't know to upload it anywhere to pass it along.

Or will you handwave this away also?

Originally posted by habu71

The claim of bodies in seats is crucial

Why?

Bodies from 77 were forensically id'ed, presented as evidence ina jury trial, and accepted as true by both sides. Even the ACLU and the whiney lawyers at Bush hating papers like the NYT didn't question its validity.

What crucial difference will it make FOR the CT argument?

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
And right there's the proof of what I just posted about your behavior.
You were shown quotes from a couple of first responders that they saw this. This is the "support" of that claim.
Yet you hand wave it away.

You're prepared to accept, at face value, that some rescue workers saw bodies strapped to airline seats. If this claim is true, then there SHOULD BE a verifiable paper-trail that proves it. Coroner's reports, other documents, etc. These bodies SHOULD have been handled properly, as fitting a crime scene investigation.

I'm not hand-waving away their statements, I would like their statements to be PROVEN.

Some believers reject rescue workers who state that they heard explosions at the WTC complex. Why should some rescue workers be 'believed' while others should not be 'believed'? The same standards of proof should be consistent for all claims - including that bodies were found strapped to airline seats.

There were other photos of bodies that were used in court, and accepted as evidence by both sides. You were shown this also. This qualifies as proof.

Seymour, at what point does logical reasoning fail you? NO ONE disputes that there were bodies at the Pentagon. NO ONE disputes that photos of bodies were shown in court.

Where did any of those photos show bodies that WERE STRAPPED TO AIRLINE SEATS?

Will you now admit, that at the very least, there were DNA id'ed bodies of passengers from 77 found INSIDE the Pentagon?

I don't know how the human DNA was found at the scene of the Pentagon. I don't know how the human DNA was identified as being passengers of Flight AA77 when the alleged plane that struck the Pentagon has not been identified as Flight AA77.

reply to post by Seymour Butz


DNA ID'ed by who? Military forensics? FBI forensics?......where are the dna samples? Under the guise of national security, anything can be forced.

Have there been any witnesses (non USG or non military) that saw the collection of body parts? In normal aircraft accident investigations, this is a long and laborious process, very carefully documented. If someone has a link to what "normally" would be produced, which is a map and photographs of where the bodies (of the aircraft passengers, not the workers in the Pentagon), I would seriously like to review it.

reply to post by tezzajw


A valid point......videotaped or written or sworn testimony is not proof, it is corroborating to physical evidence.

Originally posted by habu71
In normal aircraft accident investigations,

That's the problem right there, habu71. It was everything but a 'normal' aircraft accident investigation.

The mainstream media were telling us who-dun-it and why they did it, before any investigation had even begun!

Its funny how people claim how its impossible for bodies to survive such an impact, or stresses like that, yet how we forget what happened when Columbia broke up on re-entry. They found body parts, torsos, helmets, even the crew patches from the astronauts. And they managed to survive Mach 25 speeds, and temps of thousands of degrees on re-entry 30+ miles up. How is that?
And all that occurred because a little 1 pound piece of Styrofoam put a hole in the leading edge of the wing! A little piece of Styrofoam managed to destroy a multimillion spacecraft!

reply to post by GenRadek


Off topic. A shuttle exploding in the atmosphere really has nothing to do with proving that bodies were found strapped to airline seats at the Pentagon.

Nice try at handwaving though...

Originally posted by tezzajw

Some believers reject rescue workers who state that they heard explosions at the WTC complex. Why should some rescue workers be 'believed' while others should not be 'believed'? The same standards of proof should be consistent for all claims - including that bodies were found strapped to airline seats.

I don't know how the human DNA was found at the scene of the Pentagon.

1- So let's use that same standard then. WTC witnesses say they heard explosions. This doesn't prove explosives though, merely that there were explosions. Now, at the pentagon, witnesses saw bodies strapped in airplane seats. This doesn't prove the id of them though, merely that there were bodies strapped in airplane seats. Same standard?

2- You should do some research then about how the dna was collected and id'ed. Links have been posted before.

Like I said, I have the Flash file that gives a diagram of where the samples were found, but it's an 18MB file, so there's no chance of me uploading it here. Any suggestions?

Originally posted by habu71

DNA ID'ed by who? Military forensics? FBI forensics?......where are the dna samples? Under the guise of national security, anything can be forced.

This has got to be the dumbest post ever.

So who do you think is gonna collect and id dna evidence? Some random, untrained Joe off the street? Is this how you did it during one of your alleged crash investigations.

Using this delusional level of suspicion, NO evidence will ever convince you unless you did it yourself..... after spending a few years learning how to do it first.

reply to post by Seymour Butz


A flash (.flv) file would indicate video...is it a video of documents or a video of the collection? It's like those who post wiki links.....Wiki can be edited by anyone...as youtube videos and photos can be photoshopped .....

maybe you can post it to Flickr? (seriously, not sure)

And btw, I have only been on ATS since August, there is not way I can review everything posted here....that's why I usually ask for links....

reply to post by habu71



Everything you just said went over my head.

I'm NOT tech savvy

reply to post by tezzajw


BUt the bodies were recovered from far worse stresses. Why are you ignoring this fact?
Is it not possible that bodies could have still been strapped to a seat a the Penagon? Two people confirmed it, why ignore this?

reply to post by GenRadek


I gave 2 possibilities above.

But these guys don't understand comparisons and/or similies.

Plus, Tezza doesn't understand what hand waving is....

Originally posted by GenRadek
Is it not possible that bodies could have still been strapped to a seat a the Penagon?

Where is the PROOF that bodies were found strapped to airline seats at the Pentagon. It's pointless to speclate about the shuttle blowing up in this thread. I recommend, that you find the Space Science forum and discuss it there.

Two people confirmed it, why ignore this?

More than two people confirmed that the alleged plane flew North of Citgo, why ignore this? A flight path North of Citgo directly contradicts the official story.

reply to post by Seymour Butz
[mor

I will ignore the tone.......In a normal aircraft accident, bodies are removed to a secure location, tissue samples and dna (if available) is taken and the governing agency does the analysis. The NTSB would normally be the governing agency, except the FBI (at the time, correctly) took over because of the suspicion of national security "issues'.

My problem is that (since I haven't found any source), considering the issues, the dna was not shared with another agency or independent testing source for comparison, the results have been only identifeid as the results, not percentage of match and method identified. Dna cannot be matched without a source to compare it. Usually, the method of collection of source (hairbrush, home samples) becomes public record.

Again. I welcome a link to any actual documents that prove the dna links.

And, btw, there is no reason to be insulting here......

reply to post by GenRadek


Two people made statements, they might have been actual observations, but even the USG would normally photograph such an horrific scene. I have a problem with the fact that little if any has been released. What we have seen is not typical of a major aircraft accident.