Originally posted by undo
i think you're going to find that every time you respond to a naysayer with words like "whack-o", "ignorant fundamentalist", "religious nut", "silly conspiracy theorist" or what have you, that you will in essence, accumulate more and more people who look suspiciously at masonry. the reason being is that, these ideas they are presenting are a part of their "religiously held belief" that might not be printed in any book but they still believe them, religiously, the same as an atheist, religiously holds to the idea that there's no architect. you have to assume as a human being, that others who also have a soul, will also have an opinion, and no matter how much you may disagree with it, calling them the things that some tend to call them, just insults them and does nothing to remove the suspicion. instead, it heightens it.

[edit on 26-10-2008 by undo]

No one is doing this though. However, the type of people who believe this stuff and are most likely to have those labels applied are those who will never change their beliefs no matter the amount of evidence provided. In those cases - its not about whats true, but its about what people want to believe is true.

How do the Athiests feel about your club discriminating against them ?
Do they give you a hard time at this board about this ?
Have you ever had one that wanted to join and was told they couldnt ..if so how did they react ? And couldnt they sue your club for that ?

oops. double post.

[edit on 26-10-2008 by undo]

are most likely to have those labels applied are those who will never change their beliefs no matter the amount of evidence provided.

this is a judgement call based on human psychology and unless you know the future, you're going to have to also assume, also based on human psychology, that you will for certain make enemies by calling those who disagree with you now, derogatory names. in essence, you took a potential convert and kicked them squarely in the region of their ego (a very dangerous place to tread i've noticed). you just need to take one more step to see that is exactly the reaction you can expect from someone who is already suspicious. what's that old saying... more flies with honey than vinegar?


[edit on 26-10-2008 by undo]

I still have to go look up what Obtuse means ..is that a bad thing ?
Seriously I think some of you need to calm down and stop thinking everyone is just trying to catch you in a lie or something ..I do believe that whatever is going on ...most of you possibly dont even have a clue about it ....
My motives are just to get a feel of things from your side of things and your views on it .... ..and see just exactly what you do know about what you have taken an oath to be so involved in ...I would not even sign up as a member in any of the churches I went to ...I took no oaths to anyone but the Lord ...................
What is wrong with asking some questions ? And why do you get so defensive ?I ask everyone questions on here ...(Maybe I am just stupid)

I still see it as like a church in many ways (Other than maybe you dont sing or pray ) ..... and just because you dont see it that way does not mean I am being OBTUSE (whatever that means) ?
By the way I am not Catholic we didnt do church anything like they do .
I was in holy roller churches (Assembly of God) way different than Catholic or Baptist even ..it was strange sometimes actually ..seemed more like a party than church ..although at least it wasnt boreing ....I have fallen asleep sometimes in a Baptist ..especially these in Texas ..all Southern Baptist .....

Originally posted by undo
i disagree that no one is doing it. there's an example, right here in this thread. i've been on newsgroups where masons were defending themselves and the names some of them called the naysayers wasn't always pretty.

Where has it happened in this thread? The only thing I see happening here is people being called anti-masons - which is not an insult, just a description of someone who is against freemasonry.

When people are called Satan worshippers, members of a cult, accused of ritual rape and murder, it should be as absolutely no surprise that someone is going to lose their cool eventually. People can only be insulted so much without any evidence for the insults before they begin to get angry.

Originally posted by undo
as a general rule, they just tried to point to the facts as they saw them, however, there were some real derogatory names applied to some of the "fundies" or "conspiracy theorists". i realize every "group" does this, and that you can't control what someone else may say. i'm just explaining to those who use and entertain the use of derogatory labels for their naysayers, that you aren't going to endear anyone with that particular kind of defense. it'll just get worse.

Um, since when is being called a conspiracy theorist - or a fundamentalist - derogatory? What else do you call someone who believes that freemasons are involved in some diabolical conspiracy but can offer no evidence, or someone that thinks that all Freemasons are going to hell even when evidence suggests otherwise?

As I said, the people who resort to these tactics are not going to change their mind because someone treats them with kid gloves.

Originally posted by undo
this is a judgement call based on human psychology and unless you know the future, you're going to have to also assume, also based on human psychology, that you will for certain make enemies by calling those who disagree with you now, derogatory names.

No, this is truth. Some people will never change their minds, regardless of the quantity or quality of evidence. To deny this is simply to deny the facts - how exactly would you describe people who still believe the earth is flat?

People who make "enemies" with people when they are attached to a label that fits their behavior are individuals who make enemies for any reason, and I don't really care to be honest.

Originally posted by undo
in essence, you took a potential convert and kicked them squarely in the region of their ego (a very dangerous place to tread i've noticed). you just need to take one more step to see that is exactly the reaction you can expect from someone who is already suspicious. what's that old saying... more flies with honey than vinegar?

Exactly whom and what are you talking about? People who are castigating all masons and telling them they are all going to hell - or those who are doing the same types of shenanigans - are not potential converts, they are people with an agenda and are not interested in a discussion.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
How do the Athiests feel about your club discriminating against them ?

I suppose the same way Muslims feel about not being able to take communion in your church while praising the name of Allah - they don't really care. Why would an atheist, who does not believe in God, care about not being able to join a club where ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF GOD IS A CORNERSTONE OF THE CLUB'S PHILOSOPHY?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Do they give you a hard time at this board about this ?
Have you ever had one that wanted to join and was told they couldnt ..if so how did they react ? And couldnt they sue your club for that ?

Why in the world would anyone be able to sue because they aren't admitted to a private organization? That makes no sense - you don't have a right to be able to join all private organizations. Will you sue whenever the Board of Microsoft refuses to let you be a board member?

I have never meet an atheist who cared much about freemasonry at all once they learned that reverence for deity was a main part of masonic philosophy. Those that did joined other clubs that are more suited to their tastes, like irregular masonic bodies that let in atheists

Originally posted by Simplynoone
..I do believe that whatever is going on ...most of you possibly dont even have a clue about it ....

Which begs the question of - if no one IN the organization knows about whatever evil diabolical scheme you think is going on, how is it that YOU know about it?

Further, as any research of the organizational structure of Freemasonry shows, its absolutely incapable of executing any diabolical plot you might believe is going on. Its too decentralized and no lodge has authority over any other except grand lodges which have 1 state jurisdictions in the US.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
My motives are just to get a feel of things from your side of things and your views on it .... ..and see just exactly what you do know about what you have taken an oath to be so involved

Yet again, this gives the impression that you somehow know what is "really" going on, even though your not a member and have given no indication or evidence for this.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
...I would not even sign up as a member in any of the churches I went to ...I took no oaths to anyone but the Lord ...................

Then lets hope you never get married, join the military, enter into any sort of loan or credit card agreement, or otherwise enter into a contract of any type at any time. All those are oaths themselves are work in the same manner as an oath.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
What is wrong with asking some questions ? And why do you get so defensive ?I ask everyone questions on here ...(Maybe I am just stupid)

No one is getting defensive, your creating things in your own head. Your simply ignoring the answers you don't like, and then continue to assert things that - upon any preliminary examination of the facts - simply aren't true. Its very manipulative and irritating, but no one is getting defensive over it.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I still see it as like a church in many ways (Other than maybe you dont sing or pray ) ..... and just because you dont see it that way does not mean I am being OBTUSE (whatever that means) ?

Thats fine, but the facts don't support what you want to see. Freemasonry offers no worship, answers no questions for which religion concerns itself with, and does not teach lessons on any religion. It is not a church in any way, and never will be.

Some people will never change their minds

remember the word "Some" and just apply it liberally to all and sundry. problem solved. i don't mean that people who are labelled conspiracy theorists or fundamentalits, are derogatory titles. i mean adding little nuances to it like, "whack-o", "nut" and so on. if there are christian fundmentalist masons, i'm sure they don't appreciate seeing their brothers and sisters in christ being called nuts, any more than seeing their brothers in masonry being called rapists. imagine the quandary they are in, as christians! ya ain't on the boat by yourself, ya know. two wrongs never make a right, and assuming that all will be this way or that way, is just falling for the same problem you seem to recognize as wrong to begin with. how does this resolve the problem?

a person i have some measure of respect for told me that you fight fire with fire. i vehemently disagree with that. vehemently. if you call me an idiot, i'm not going to reciprocate that, because it serves no purpose. it doesn't resolve anything, only exacerbate the original problem. will you stop believing i'm an idiot if i call you a similar derogatory name or assume you will never stop calling me an idiot, ever? what are we, a bunch of darth vaders that we have to be beat to death to realize that two wrongs never make a right? that is the message of star wars.

VADER: FIGHT!
LUKE: NO!
VADER: YES!
LUKE: NO!
VADER: OKAY, OFF WITH YOUR HAND!
LUKE: SHEESH!
VADER: FIGHT!
LUKE: NO!
VADER: I'M YOUR DAD!
LUKE: NO0000OOoooo!
VADER: YES, SO FIGHT!
LUKE: NO, NO NO!
VADER: OKAY, WHERE'S YOUR SISTER?! OFF WITH HER HAND!
LUKE: FINE! (BEATS HIS OWN DAD TO DEATH)
VADER: THANKS.



that's not reality. it doesn't work that way. you beat someone to death, they ain't gonna like ya.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by undo]

Josh I am not saying your all in the dark or being kept in the dark ..
I believe yall just really dont care and have already blown it all off as stupid ...you prefer just thinking it is just a good ole boys club ...and would not know even if something was going on ...for that reason ..no researching it ..no questioning it ..nadda ..just going and hanging out ..and giving to the poor ..
It sounds nice ......Like the United Way was all good and kind too and helping lots of people all over the world .....they were robbing everyone blind ...remember that ? Wasnt all good on the inside of that charity was it ..and not many knew about it ..not even those who worked for them ..(how embbaresing that must have been for them when they found out)
(sorry about my spelling )

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
LowLevel ...if it is not about God really as you say it isnt ...

And this is exactly what I am talking about. After I JUST GOT DONE explaining that belief in God in freemasonry is critical in masonic philosophy, you completely ignore what I typed and go about believing what you want to believe instead of what I've just typed.

Furthermore, I have no doubt now that your next reply is going to say something along the lines of "Well if it is about God then why is it not a Church" even AFTER I just got done giving multiple examples of where God is involved in public life that have no relation to religion or church. You have, of course, also ignored that and will no doubt ignore it once you ask the same question again.

No, Atheists are not going to have a desire to join a organization where belief in God is central to the organizations philosophy. Furthermore, if they choose to want to do it anyways, there are numerous other groups that say they are freemasonry which admit atheist, including the Grand Orient of France.

Originally posted by Simplynoone ...all they have to do is like alot of people do and just say sure I believe in God ...no problem.....I know Christians who say they do and DONT really believe ..They just want to be a part of something or they just want to feel special ..or whatever ..I am not sure why they lie ..but they do ..I know lots of Christians like that actually ..

And what exactly is your point here? Sure, people can feel free to lie and say they believe in a Supreme Being to join freemasonry. No one has ever said this couldn't happen. If people want to lie, so be it - its their loss, as they won't find anything of value in the organization.

Josh I am not saying your all in the dark or being kept in the dark .. I believe yall just really dont care and have already blown it all off as stupid ...you prefer just thinking it is just a good ole boys club ...and would not know even if something was going on ...for that reason ..no researching it ..no questioning it ..nadda ..just going and hanging out ..and giving to the poor ..

I know this is directed at Josh, but I must chime in here - this is absurd. How in the world do you know that freemasons never research any of this? I'll have you know I researched the fraternity for YEARS before I decided to join, delving into every conspiracy theory I could find. And I am not alone - I would say a majority of masons do this.

However, because we found nothing and there is no proof for any of the allegations thrown around, you assume that we did no research. Did it ever occur to you that we did all the research, and that you just happen to be wrong? No that can't be it of course, really there is just something nefarious going on that only you and other anti-masons know about.

No one has said Freemasonry is a "good old boys club" - its quite the opposite. The membership criteria is quite wide, with probably over 1 to 2 billion people meeting the membership criteria (over 18, male, not enslaved, and no criminal record) and it caters to those who have a wide philosophical interest. It is, however, a club devoted to esoteric philosophical inquiries and to doing good works on occasion.

It sounds nice ......Like the United Way was all good and kind too and helping lots of people all over the world .....they were robbing everyone blind ...remember that ? Wasnt all good on the inside of that charity was it ..and not many knew about it ..not even those who worked for them ..(how embbaresing that must have been for them when they found out) (sorry about my spelling )

The United Way is a charity arm of the United Nations. Freemasonry is a club. Why do you continue to search to find invalid metaphors?

Freemasonry has open books. You want to find some evil scheme? Go search through them. You may find something if you searched through all the books of all the lodges in the world, because with so many lodges I'm sure someone is being corrupt somewhere. When you find it, come here and I will personally help you expose the lodge and bring it to the media's attention.

But it would be a rare finding, because freemasonry is an inefficient and structurally unsound way to do anything evil. There are far better avenues to do such things.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Dont you see why it does not make sense ..to tell us it is not about GOD .But yet IT IS because GOD is a must to even join up >>....and it is more about meetings and reading handbooks etc ...and men getting together ..(Which dont tell me most of you do not read the GNOSTIC BIBLE ...because I am pretty sure alot of you do ....and yes it is a bible and I have read it too ........and you read esoteric books too ...which is why Masons get the run down on whats going on etc ....

When does God actually get mentioned in any meetings ? Just in the pledge of alegiance to the flag ? And your oaths ?

I still do not see the difference ..Church meets with GOD as our COMMON belief (except in our case it is also Christ Jesus his son) to be able to fellowship with other like minded people ...that is what we do in our homes even with other Christians (us unchurched ones) ....we just read the bible (no singing) ...we do pray but not always outloud ...and we discuss home life we drink coffee lol ...have fellowship ...like yall do .... etc .
We even do charity ...

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Dont you see why it does not make sense ..to tell us it is not about GOD .But yet IT IS because GOD is a must to even join up >>....and it is more about meetings and reading handbooks etc ...and men getting together ..(Which dont tell me most of you do not read the GNOSTIC BIBLE ...because I am pretty sure alot of you do ....and yes it is a bible and I have read it too ........and you read esoteric books too ...which is why Masons get the run down on whats going on etc ....

When does God actually get mentioned in any meetings ? Just in the pledge of alegiance to the flag ? And your oaths ?

I still do not see the difference ..Church meets with GOD as our COMMON belief (except in our case it is also Christ Jesus his son) to be able to fellowship with other like minded people ...that is what we do in our homes even with other Christians (us unchurched ones) ....we just read the bible (no singing) ...we do pray but not always outloud ...and we discuss home life we drink coffee lol ...have fellowship ...like yall do .... etc .
We even do charity ...

You know, there is something to be said when your responses are so predictable not 10 minutes earlier I stated you would say this:

Furthermore, I have no doubt now that your next reply is going to say something along the lines of "Well if it is about God then why is it not a Church" even AFTER I just got done giving multiple examples of where God is involved in public life that have no relation to religion or church. You have, of course, also ignored that and will no doubt ignore it once you ask the same question again.

You are either being willfully ignorant and choosing to ignore answers you don't like, or your attempting to see if you can get someone angry at you for fun. Honestly I'm not sure.

Also, since you claim to be a Christian, I'd love to hear what church you go to where anyone who believes in God can join you - do you have an ecumenical service where Muslims, Jews, Buddhists (depending on their type, one sect does believing in Buddha as divine), etc. all worship together? They all believe in God, after all.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

{You are either being willfully ignorant and choosing to ignore answers you don't like, or your attempting to see if you can get someone angry at you for fun. Honestly I'm not sure.}

Yes that must be the case ...I just love getting you guys all riled up since you rile up so easily and quickly and your all so nice with your responses ......Whatever ....

I already told you that I am ignorant ...so whats new there ? Willfully ..sure ok ...

And I guess I am obtuse as well
ob⋅tuse
   /əbˈtus, -ˈtyus/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhb-toos, -tyoos] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.

With an IQ of 70 what did you expect ...

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Simplynoone]