Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Well could you explain Brother Annie Besant then?

Nothing to explain because Annie Besant was no brother to me, and never will be. She started a co-masonic irregular body which has never been recognized as freemasonry by any regular lodge in the world. Thanks for giving yet another example of a anti-mason talking point that people love to believe which represents nothing more than deliberate deception.

Also, has it occurred to you that just because Annie Besant liked theosophy, that it doesn't mean everything she did was as a theosophist? I mean, this is obvious to people who aren't trolling, but it IS possible for someone not to be completely 1 dimensional.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
There is a white and a black male masons, black ones being Prince Hall Freemasons,

You again betray how little you know about freemasonry. Black masons are in "white" masons lodges and white men are in Prince Hall lodges.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
but someone explain Annie Besant, the occultist and why she was called Bother Annie? I will give you a clue, look at Pharaoh Hatsheput. They gave her an honorary beard making her an honorary male as all Pharaohs had to be males to be the SON of the SUN. IHS Isis Horus Seth...

LOL. You really need to go do some research on "irregular" masonry - anyone can call themselves freemasons and it doesn't make it so. Your obsession with irregular freemasonry has nothing to do with legitimate masonry.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Now I have gone and named the Masonic gods in their Egyptian names as well as question the ignorance on the subject. Find out what Hillary Clinton is in the Masons for the Grand Prize.. LOL

"Masonic gods"? Yet again, you have completely failed. Their are no masonic gods, although if it makes you feel good you can make some up. And Hillary Clinton? Yeah, I'm sure shes a member of some irregular freemasonry lodge and somehow only you and a few anti-masons found out about it, LOL

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I won't even start on the Shriners nor their connection to Islam and therefore the Pontificus Maximus the Pope and Rome. All this information is freely available to anyone who seeks it out.

This is what is great about anti-masons. I don't really HAVE to debunk you, you debunk yourself. Here we have one telling us that Islam is actually related to Catholicism. Nothing more needs to be said, the validity of this one is obvious.

Please, continue to entertain us with your made up theories about freemasonry. If nothing else, it provides everyone with a good laugh.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
No actually it would take to long to explain it all and tie it together in a thread.

No, please do. I find it fascinating how people can believe such things.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
All Shriners are 32 degrees and above that take an oath on the Koran, all their symbology is Islamic from the sword, stars and crescent moon to the Fez that they wear. Which brings me back to serving two masters.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Any 3rd degree Master Mason could become a Shriner. Up until a few years ago, it was ANY Knight Templar or Master of the Royal Secret that could become a Shriner (more evidence that this obsession with 32nd degrees is potinless). I am not a shriner, but the good news is that the ritual is available very easily. They do not take an oath on the Koran, and the crescent in their fez has nothing to do with being an exclusive Islamic symbol.

Which brings me back to you not having any idea what your talking about.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
The Jesuit influence in Islam is easy enough to do research on,

Yes, it is easy to do the research and find out there is none and its just conspiracy fantasy.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal. So even if I spent 2 hours typing it all out, tying it all together it would still be my words.

So perhaps you could - heres a thought - provide actual legitimate sources for all this? Ah but of course you won't because all your sources go back to conspiracy theory and you don't have facts for any of it.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I find that those who research on their own are more likely to be open to what they find in that research.

This is code for: Because I know I'm wrong and don't want to provide evidence.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I will give you a jumping off point for your research, find out which so called Christian denominations have churches in Islamic countries, the answer may surprise you.

This isn't go fish. Provide the sources.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
No actually it would take to long to explain it all and tie it together in a thread. All Shriners are 32 degrees and above that take an oath on the Koran,

That's horse manure in it's purest form.

Have you ever attended a Shriners initiation? Have you actually WITNESSED this? Or are you (like all the others of your ilk) relying on third-party half-baked information?


One need only be a 3rd Degree (Master Mason) to be a Shriner. It's been that way for several years.

Oh, and back when one DID need to be a 32nd Degree Mason...a 3rd Degree Mason could (and still can) become a 32nd Degree Mason in a matter of a few hours. All one needs to do is petition membership in the Scottish Rite. Additionally, at that time, one didn't HAVE to be a 32nd Degree Mason either. He could be a Knight Templar instead. This requirement was also dropped several years ago.

Please try to keep up if you're going to relate . . . uhm . . . "facts"

There is NO oath taken on the Q'uran. NEVER has been. We raise our right hands and say "I promise...."

The Shrine is a "fun" group that bases it's ritual on nonsense and conjecture. Goodfellowship is the purpose and supporting Crippled & Burned Childrens' Hospitals is the cause.

There is now worship. There is no "master"

Get your facts straight, please.

Edit to add:

I will have to admit how amused I always am by the ATS members like you who seem to know SO much about Freemasonry, yet have never darkened the door of a Lodge. That's truly laughable, you know?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by senrak]

Originally posted by theindependentjournal

...find out which so called Christian denominations have churches in Islamic countries, the answer may surprise you.

Say it's not so!

There are Christian churches in Islamic countries? When did this happen?

(And we note gratuitious use of the "so-called" before Christian, meaning the writer doesn't think they're REALLY and TRULY Christian, but that they're just SAYING they follow Jesus but are ... apparently ... just hanging out in Islamic countries ... pretending to be Christians, which ... um, we know is fun and popular and profitable, right?)

But seriously -- as for denominations operating in Islamic (or any primarily non-Christian county) it's probably because they are following that annoying little thing in orthodox Christian theology called "The Great Commission" and noted in Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV):

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And, lo, I am with you alway.... even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I even quoted it from the "authorized" version of which the OP is so (um ...) fond.

Cheers,
Sandalfon

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Co-Masonry, for example, is not recognized because it admits women.

Excellent informational tie back to the earlier question by theindependentjournal, who asked about Annie Besant, a woman who was fascinated by Freemasonry.

After studies and travels (and various other religious and spiritual adventures) Besant eventually established Lodges of Le Droit Humain (co-masonry) in the UK. While co-masonry was based on Masonic principles, it isn't Freemasonry then or now. (Freemasonry is defined as those entities actually under a regional or national Grand Lodge of the F. & A. M.)

Cheers,
Sandalfon

My local Valley is having a Scottish Rite conference this weekend. For $180 I can go over Friday afternoon at 4pm, do a couple of degrees, dinner, a couple more and then come back Saturday and by Saturday afternoon be a 32nd Scottish Rite mason.

So much for the big secret.

If I had $180 I would be the king of the world by Sunday!

Originally posted by emsed1
My local Valley is having a Scottish Rite conference this weekend. For $180 I can go over Friday afternoon at 4pm, do a couple of degrees, dinner, a couple more and then come back Saturday and by Saturday afternoon be a 32nd Scottish Rite mason.

So much for the big secret.

If I had $180 I would be the king of the world by Sunday!

And then you get access to the secret underground reptilian Illuminati layer, where we teach the 32nd degrees how to make scrumptious pancakes.

And it just takes 48 hours to get there

By the way, sadly that probably doesn't include the price of the black hat. Those are like $80 more. But you DO get a lovely, HUGE patent from the Scottish Rite that makes you look uber-important.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason

... where we teach the 32nd degrees how to make scrumptious pancakes.

I just did a Google search on the phrase 'masonic pancakes' and it came back with 217,000 hits. Most read something like this: "We're pleased to announce that this Saturday, _____ Masonic Lodge # ___ of (town) will host a (adjective -- usually delicious, delectable, or scrumptous) pancake breakfast at (place) to raise money for children with (ailment or condition)."

Clearly it's their ability to make (and then SELL) large quantities of pancakes, consistently, and perhaps with a variety of syrups and soft butter, accompanied occasionally (at the better lodges) by breakfast meats such as bacon and sausage ...

... that allow the Masons to dominate the corridors of power, or -- better yet -- to make people THINK they dominate the corridors of power. ("Perception is reality," goes the media phrase.)

Aprons. Pancakes. Aprons. Pancakes.

(Finally, it begins to make sense.)

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Sandalfon]

Originally posted by Sandalfon

Originally posted by LowLevelMason

... where we teach the 32nd degrees how to make scrumptious pancakes.

I just did a Google search on the phrase 'masonic pancakes' and it came back with 217,000 hits. Most read something like this: "We're pleased to announce that this Saturday, _____ Masonic Lodge # ___ of (town) will host a (adjective -- usually delicious, delectable, or scrumptous) pancake breakfast at (place) to raise money for children with (ailment or condition)."

Clearly it's their ability to make (and then SELL) large quantities of pancakes, consistently, and perhaps with a variety of syrups and soft butter, accompanied occasionally (at the better lodges) by breakfast meats such as bacon and sausage ...

... that allow the Masons to dominate the corridors of power, or -- better yet -- to make people THINK they dominate the corridors of power. ("Perception is reality," goes the media phrase.)

Aprons. Pancakes. Aprons. Pancakes.

(Finally, it begins to make sense.)

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Sandalfon]

Alas! The Grand Masonic Secret is out!

We know where you live.... MUAHAHAHAHAHHA!! Haha... ha... cough cough...

I come from a long line of Mason's and all my family were christians,my fathers family left Europe because of religious percecution in the 20's

Originally posted by J.Smit
You are correct. Freemasonry does not offer salvation.

Nor would I ever wish it to offer such.

As for the second quote, i really hope you are not a "Christian."

Breathe easy, I am not. Diest is the best description.

If you were, you would know that you are not to share the worship of devils. Which is what is done when proclaiming all religions worship GAOTU under different names; and teaching religious tolerance.

Because the teaching of religious intolerance is so much more preferable.

A lodge could be a great place to disciple heathens.

You would not last two seconds employing a tact such as that so I beg to disagree with you.

But that would be religious intolerance, because you attempt to convince someone that his religion is wrong.

But I am fairly certain that would not compel you to desist since you feel somehow obligated to minister to all the heritical non-believers that do not subscribe to your fundamentalist viewpoint regarding religion.

And those who would rather be in the group than risking rejection for the name of Jesus, well, He said that He shall be ashamed before the Father, of all who are ashamed of Him before men.

And those who are ashamed of Him, are afraid of what people will say about or do to them. And those will be left outside the New Jerusalem and never enter into it.

And being that I do not believe any of what you stated I concurrently do not believe I need to worry about the results of my actions concerning such.

Originally posted by J.Smit
No, i am of the faith that we are not to demote our Father to just another name that is shared with Vishnu and Brahma and Allah.

How very fortunate we are then that Freemasonry is not your faith..or any faith, actually.

Originally posted by J.Smit
And if you were a true child of God, not GAOTU, you would know the truth in this. Sarcasm is not going to derail the route to hell for those who claim to be God's servants, yet keep on with serving the devils in the name of GAOTU.

You know, as a Christian, you seem to have very little knowledge about your own religion. I would bet you are the same type of person who wants "IN GOD WE TRUST" to appear on the dollar bill, right? Yet at the same time your being very hypocritical, because Freemasony's treatment of God is the same thing in practice: GAOTU is not a God, its simply a name for God - or is your god so weak that hes not the architect of the universe?

Thats fine if you worship a weak and pitiful God. I on the other hand worship a all powerful God, which the Bible tells me is indeed powerful enough to be the Architect of the Universe.

Whats probably most amusing is that you serve a false God, as your posts reflect nothing but anger, hatred, rage, and judgment - quite the opposite of the God of the Bible. Perhaps you should stop worshiping devils instead of accusing others of doing the same?

Someone's going to have to explain something to me.
I was brought up catholic, which is one of the more strict Christian divisions.
Now, this was only about ten or so years ago, so it's not like I had a nun rapping my knuckles (mostly because she had arthritis, and left teaching the class to a much younger fellow).
I still remember what he told the class:
"If you are in a room full of people of other religions, they should know you are Christian by your mannerisms, without you ever having to speak a word for yourself, and be able to bring to the faith without having to preach."


You do not need to preach God's word, or decide what he objects to. Or even decide what is his identity, that is up to him.
You live the word, do the best you can, and smile on your fellow man regardless of their faith, and help by actions, and not words, to make heaven on Earth.

Or, that was what I was taught. Seems that Jesus taught peace, tolerance, and acceptance.
Not hate, judgment, and ignorance.
COuld be wrong though, seems you can prove anything with the Bible these days.