On why God does not perform obvious miracles anymore and why God is not fair

like i said, ull see them, but in the future

this was me, publius i accidentaly was still loged in as my mom.! srry!

[edit on 11-10-2008 by Grandma]

to keep it short, you can see those miracles now, if you just look.

sorry miriam, but i know better.

Originally posted by Grandma
i also wondered along those lines, but like the examples you posted, i have also witnessed a personal miracle, in my mother, but that only helps me.

Which is why I dare say that it isn't the miracles that matter, but what we do with the experience. What is the true miracle; returning from the dead or using that experience to propel us to greater understanding of ourselves and others?

Personally, I prefer the later if only because while the experience can be shared to inspire emotion, the emotion can be shared to simply inspire.

I'm afraid many of you will not like my answer, but it does seem to fit all of the facts.
There is no god.
What you read in the bible is the work of man in his age old quest to control the masses. You must admit that it works pretty well. In order to find the truth we must die. Hmmm
Zues was not real, Mithra was fake, and so are all the others. If I told you the Easter Bunny was just a children,s story, I would get no argument, would I. the reason "god is so hard to understand is that his book was written by ghost writers who made stuff up as they went aling, whatever would generate to compliance they were looking for. Religion of all kinds, christian, jewish, muslim etc are all equally false. All examples of the same scam.
God does not perform miracles now because he never performed any..ever.
the reason children die by the thousands of starvation? No god
The reason bad things happen to good people? No god
Those that believe in the devil, please if god existed and he was all powerful, the devil would be toast in a second.
My advice is not to look for Jesus to help you he won't, help yourself nobody else will.
Now go give somebody a hug, just because!

Originally posted by doctorex
People think God is not fair because they are using there own scale of what fair is. If God lays out a guide on how to live a joyful, fruitful existence, and nations fail to adhere to it, they can't then turn around and say their predicament is not fair. Even trials are a blessing if you have understanding, and some are merely a witness to others, which is what this entire age is, a witness for all eternity on what happens when we turn from God. As for miracles, they are performed daily, they just aren't recognized.

no it is not fair. they have been raissed that way, and a young adult is going to almost ALWAYS adhere to the religion they were raised in. if some one from China came to you and told you that Faulon Gong was the true religion, and you and your parents were wrong, AND told you to fail to converst (no matter how pure your heart) you will still not get to paradise. if they are telling someone it's this way, this is the truth, you still would not believe them, because you have faith that the religion you grew up around is the correct one, you would not convert. Now i know some small percentage does, but i also read that a higher number of people are converting to Islam. So no it is not fair, millions will not reach paradise because they have faith intheir parents and the convictions that have been taught to them by their parents. tell me how that is fair...yes they were given a choice, but there was really never a choice. it's like an oboma supporter telling a republican that Oboma is the right candidate, and that if the mccain supporter diesn't change his mind, great tragedies will happen to them and the country. It doesn't matter if the oboma supporter is correct (i think he would be 55% better BTW) or if he isn't correct point is the mccain supporter would not just take the other persons word for it. now i do believe that if the holy spirit was to make it more fair by helping their heart be open to accept Christ, i could see that making it fair, but how can you expect someone to change their mind when the country they live in is NOT A NATION UNDER GOD, matter of fact a nation the generally has never had many christians at all, it's not that 19 year olds fault that his parents raised him to not trust Christianity, he may have a very pure heart, but he was never around much teachings and even if he was to be exposed often, i still think he will side with his neighbors,friends,and family, not some strange white guy that knows nothing about them explain to me how that is a fair chance? explain how it is just for that man to not reach heaven if he dies in a car accident at 19 years old still a non believer, or still believing what his mother raised him to believe. he may have the purest heart in the world, but he goes to hell? explain how that is fair?

"I'm inhibiting what now? Seriously, you posted a statement that you basically put the existence of god as a premise. I put forward an argument rejecting that premise, and now you tell me not to pollute your thread?"
-venit
i never said i doubted God Venit, i said i had doubts about the biblical version of how he operates. the premise was why does god not do these GRAND SCALE miracles, and why it is not fair the a man doesn't go to heaven because he believed and had faith in what his parents taught him, so no, i leave no room for discussing him being real or not...i know he is real, and i don't wish to discuss that aspect at all.
now from TravelerintheDArk:
/////"I know it may sound like too easy an answer, but perhaps the miracles never happened in the first place. It's difficult to rely on the writings of men to fully justify the truth of the occurrences. However, there was recently a woman that was dead for 17 1/2 hours before spontaneously reviving"

/////i also wondered along those lines Traveler, but like the examples you posted, i have also witnessed a personal miracle, in my mother, but that only helps me, and my faith. that is the reason i believe in God now, 4 months ago i was a non believer. i would say that your explanation makes the most sense so far, but having witnessed a miracle that 3 people can confim seeing same thing, i just don't find it hard to believe it wasn't a miracle.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/////from illusions: "would say that the God in Christianity is the same God at the root of all religions, even those that are polytheistic. In the polytheistic religions there is a "originator" a singular Divinity that then "begets" other Gods. God has always been fair. It is people who are not fair. It is people that try to take the God of everything that is, every human, every blade of grass, and selfishly claim him only for themselves and those they like."
////I agree illusions with the first part, the god of the bile is alo ra and so on and so forth, are you saying i needn't believe in the bible, whear it says that one must believe in Christ being the one and only son of God to achieve everlasting life? because i could buy that, that makes sense.
//////more from illusions: "In regards to why miracles no longer occur to make people believe, I would say miracles rarely occur because there are so few who DO believe in God. Miracles do not occur to make people have faith, miracles are the natural outcome of a truly faithful person listening to and acting as instructed by God. Notice in every one of your scenarios that God does not cause the miracle without someone present who is listening to Gods own voice. People today believe in the writings, the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, etc. They do not seek God on their own as Jesus did, as Moses did, as Abraham did, or even Mohammad did.
Jesus was not only reading scripture. Moses was not only reading scripture. Nor was Noah when he built the Ark. Each one of these miracles involved an active listener to the voice of God. If you want to see a miracle, you need to listen to the voice of God, not read the words of men. God creates miracles through those who not only believe in the words of men, but who believe not only that God exists, but that God is a living presence that can and will still speak to you. If you have ears to listen, and faith in what you hear."
/////but there must have been someone in the last 1000 years who DID listen to his voice and only his voice, must have been some situation where one of those grand miracles of old would happen again, surely!

////From simplynoone:They saw the miracles ..they still chose their idols ..
Wouldnt we do the same if he did that in our time ?
I believe we would ..
Well alot of us did do just that ..since we first heard and believed ..
Personally I do not think it would matter much even if God did yell from heaven and say hey meet me at the mountain yonder way and I will talk with you ..I wonder how many would even show up ...most would dismiss God speaking as some trick and just blow it off anyway .
They do that now ..they say ..that was not a miracle that was just coincidence and chance happenings ..or they say ..God isnt talking that is all in your head ...etc ..
////i already believe as well,i have witnessed a miracle, but why was my mother chosen to live while others die? i was termed MIRACLE BABY in USA today, the 2nd ever successful reverse vasectomy baby that was health, but my older brother had to die in order for my parents to desire another boy, and get my father un-fixed. so really, i can't let myself believe in these miracles unless i believe God gives them to some, while others not worthy are not. i can't put faith in a God that chooses who lives or dies, so i can't believe that. and again, would it be fair to you if Islam was actually correct, but you never converted because you feel strongly about your faith? u must understand the very low likeleyhood that someone will come to christ after being raised a different way. how is it fair that a jew would not go to paradise because they didn; belive in christ, it's what they were taught to believe, and at a very young/impressionable, easy to manipulate age no less. so no, there is not really a choice at all, if they think hades is waithing for those who believe in christ, that's a scary thought, and they will stick with waht they know.
///more from simply:I will ponder your questions though and truly pray that you get your answers ..and I pray that God puts that doubting thomas spirit to rest in you once and for all ...
PS ...just so you know ..I think they are really good questions and I have even asked some of them myself over the years ...
I would like to know why God didnt just lock the devil up before he could even reek havoc on the earth ..but I have since learned that the Devil also has his purpose and it will all be towards and for the Glory of GOD in the end.So I quit asking that question ....
Everything has its purpose and I have seen that for sure even in my own life.
thank you for the prayer... that honestly means a lot to me, but i cannot have total faith until i find an anwere that makes total sense about these topics. but you are starred, and illusions and Venit are as well, because input is what i need.

/////from leovirgo: "I think you have witnessed a miracle yourself, about our mother. TO me, a miracle, is as simply as God showing himself to someone through their spirit. God showed our mother Theeself (not literally God) but showed her a place that was not of this world, to me, that is a miracle.

You and I have had endless talks about 'energy' of something. We have seen positive energy and negative energy. YOu know they are there, we didnt make them up in our minds. What you are having trouble with, now that you are opening your heart more to the spiritual side of things, is understanding Biblical ties to the spiritual itself. Use your intuition. The intuition is only helpful if you ground yourself that your life is not for you and you alone, its for the works of God. You dont have to go around living like a monk, you just need to let all opportunities humble you, no matter how hard the experience is. So many times people blame Satan or evil forces for the wrongs in this world. The wrongs that people do need to be excepted as the peoples own wrongs. Our adversary, is our ego, and boy can it get us into some trouble as well as darken our soul so much, God can not dwell there.
The Bible-people want to except it as entirely by the works of God and place God in this mind set that this is all that he is, whatever the Bible says. We know our mother believes this, you know that I dont. Instead of worrying yourself with what things are true and false, just know that God wants us to live a certain way, that way is to live for others more then ourselves. Be humble, bring peace, serve love.
//////yes mom seems to be a miracle by all accounts, but then again, for me to believe that, that she was givena choice to come back to us or stay with jesus and go through the gates, then i would have to believe that she got that miracle, whiles others are dying and not getting the same choice. i can't believe God intervines with such matters, to do so tells how cruel he must be to have let our brother die with so much ahead of him, while mother lives with most of her life already lived. i thought you agrres with me that God doesn't change outcomes, only gives us opprotunities for greatness, not making it happen!

/////from doctorexeople think God is not fair because they are using there own scale of what fair is. If God lays out a guide on how to live a joyful, fruitful existence, and nations fail to adhere to it, they can't then turn around and say their predicament is not fair. Even trials are a blessing if you have understanding, and some are merely a witness to others, which is what this entire age is, a witness for all eternity on what happens when we turn from God. As for miracles, they are performed daily, they just aren't recognized.
//////i'm not using my own scal i am bebing objective. someone raised in america or canada or mexico by the majority are raised christian to begin with, therefor it's not much a stretch for them to believe, yet i am asking about countries that are not predominately christian, they have a sever disadvantage to believing, they are raised different! why can't somone see that? i will never convert to islam, or hindu, because i have faith in christ and god, and i was raised that way. even with overwhelming evidence otherwise, i still would not convert...and neither do those people in the East! the deck is stacked against them from the beginning, and i find it sad.
//////drevill says: "which god are you on about then?
you say you dont follow the God of the bible, but you question why the miracles in the bible do not happen?
they do, just look. "
first, i think i said i had problems with parts of the bible, the examples shown are not as grand as seas parting, or burning bushes.

The reason why you don't see those so-called miracles anymore is because we don't need them anymore. Back in the days of the Bible people needed to see those kind of "big miracles" .

Remember people in those days minds were dull, in comparison to todays standards, so they neeeded to see the miracles. We have grown much as a species since those days and now, this time around, we don't require the convincing they needed to believe.

As for Christs so-called return, you won't see that. Well, not the way some think. But then Christ wasn't like the Bible would have you believe anyway. He was only a man. Though he was far more enlightened than your average human, in those days.

But then, perhaps, God has already returned and your all missing the boat! But this time around the people won't be led to believe through grand miracles that "shock and awe", but through the inspiration of the divine essence's return, as she's walking in the flesh upon the Earth.

Though most of us will never meet her, she'll walk among us looking for those who display the god like qualities that she looks for in her disciples.

Search your heart, for there will you find the answers you seek my brothers and sisters. But first clear it of all the negative elements that would block same. May great blessings from the divine mother bless you all.

My outlook on this may be a little different. In my studies i have found that people from ALL religions report miracles, and some have been studied in scientific settings....and not been disproved. To my mind, the reasoning here is that Miracles are not an extension of a seperate divinity, and I dont particularly believe in a divinity that is seperate from us. I would say that these "miracles" of which you speak more often are the result of us contacting the divinity within ourselves. On some level i think we all have within us the divine spark that jesus or buddha shared, and perhaps that can effect reality around us in some ways, and it is "faith" in whichever system or deity, that allows the human mind the focus to access this divinity. The reason it is so rarely seen nowadays is that most of humanity has such a base in science that it sees such things as faith to be nothing more than superstition. And then theres the fundamentalists who perhaps would label the persuits of sharpening and focusing such faith (hours of meditation study and introspection) as tools of the devil. These things have perhaps led us away from our own divinity, and left the world largely bereft of miracles...in the western hemisphere. In the east, it is not at all uncommon for yogis like yogananda parahamsa or sathya sai baba to regularly perform healings or produce matter from the air, sacred ash and what not. My old roommate nicholas knoth told me of a trip he took to south america where he witnessed a curendera (medicine man) cut cataracts from a blind womans eyes with a rusty razor blade and remove tumors by reaching into a mans arm with his bare hand and pulling it out. Then theres John Chang, the taoist immortal who was on the documentary "ring of fire" as well as 60 minutes, who lives in indonesia where he is an energy healer who developed his ability to channel his "chi" into others to heal them of ailments, and was even filmed on 60 minutes channeling his chi through his hands to set newspaper on fire, and these abilities he gained through many hours of meditation and practice. I would hypothesize that we all have a small bit of influence on the world around us, and in the past when people believed more in such things, reality was a bit more flexible perhaps due to the flexibility in peoples beliefs, but now with our ideology of science rigidly imposed upon it, it takes great practice and focus for one person to bend reality around us against the great weight of belief that all the others impose upon it. Just one of those things i think about.

Originally posted by pureevil81
to keep it short, you can see those miracles now, if you just look.

sorry miriam, but i know better.

i agree, there are miracles and amazing works

2 thess 2:
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

satan is a liar and a deceiver. i dont doubt your miracles, i doubt their source.

Im quite sure the only true "satan" or "deceiver" is the judge and victim which live in the mind of all unfreed and unenlightened people. It is the voice of our own ego and fear that lives within our mind telling us sad lies of seperation and need. Fortunately we have such wise people as don miguell ruiz, rinpoche, and many others to help us free ourselves from our hatred and fear.

Ummmm. There are still the "great miracles".... How often do you require them to happen? Eg:

en.wikipedia.org... (the event itself, rather than the rather less-relevant issue of purported healings there since)

en.wikipedia.org...
(generla info: en.wikipedia.org...)

Debate the theological ramifications or supernatural sources if you will, but don't gloss over their existence.

Cheers.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by d60944]

reply to post by d60944


There are very few accepted, official miracles at lourdes, recognised by the catholic church. Six, if i recall correctly. Now how many people have visited Lourdes? Quite a lot. Perhaps hundreds of thousands. 6 people 'miraculously cured' out of hundreds of thousands of people going there. This is called statistical insignificant.

Let's give another example of the fallacy of miracles. Let's say a baby survived a disaster. 400,000 other people died. Yet that baby is saved, would you say that was a miracle? Do those other 400k people have to die in order for a 'miraculous event' and why exactly was one life a miracle when so many others were dead. Wake up, God doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Venit
reply to post by d60944

 

There are very few accepted, official miracles at lourdes, recognised by the catholic church. Six, if i recall correctly. Now how many people have visited Lourdes? Quite a lot. Perhaps hundreds of thousands. 6 people 'miraculously cured' out of hundreds of thousands of people going there. This is called statistical insignificant.

If you would like to re-read my post and note what I put in brackets then you will see I made no claim for the healings since then. I was talking about the supernatural event at the founding of the site.

Or if you prefer something more recent, more widely reported and witnessed, try the second and third links.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by d60944]

The best reply to this is something I once read at the RonPaulForums.

God is a non-interventionist.

reply to post by miriam0566


sure miriam, we could go round and round, but what would be the point?

im sure satan is working miracles now in the name of the lord, yeah thats it. im sure your right. [sarcasm/]

reply to post by d60944


Apologies. Read the first link, it sounds to me more like a little girl who wanted to get into the order.

Originally posted by Venit
reply to post by d60944

 

Apologies. Read the first link, it sounds to me more like a little girl who wanted to get into the order.

No worries, and what is your take on the events at Fatima (2nd and 3rd links)?

Originally posted by Enigma Publius

/////but there must have been someone in the last 1000 years who DID listen to his voice and only his voice, must have been some situation where one of those grand miracles of old would happen again, surely!

I think there are still people who listen to the voice of the Divine, and always have been. And, I think miracles do occur today and have all along.

The OP stated that you did not want to consider personal miracles, but only miracles on the grand scale,

originally posted by Enigma Publius

First: why doesn't God perform the obvious miracles like he did in the bible? by obvious i mean the seas parting, a burning bush, a man arising from the dead. No doubt someone will try and say something like this:
"God performs miracles everyday, he has answered my prayers before, i have seen someone that was dying suddenly become okay and well." this may be true. But i ask you, where are the big miracles that would be undeniable?

I think most of the people who truly hear and listen to the voice of God lead simple, quiet, rather humble lives. I think they are unpretentious, and unassuming, and they and their miracles are not spectacular enough for most people to notice or care about.

I would bet that there are those who see miracles on a fairly regular basis, because they recognize the miraculous in the small things, as well as in the grand.

I dont think God, or whatever one cares to call the Divine, feels the need to "make people believe," and I do not believe God has ever made miracles happen for that reason. I dont think he favors believers over non-believers, though I am aware many do. What Almighty God could be so needy for our poor little affections and religious mumblings that he would spite those who had lost (or never had in the first place) faith? I think God speaks to saint and sinner alike, all the time, and loves and accepts us all equally, but only those a certain way inclined can actually recognize the voice of God, and act accordingly.




[edit on 15-10-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by d60944


Intriguing, yet not proof of the existence of God. Children lie for various reasons, the decomposition rates of corpses vary due to the burial conditions. Not inconceveable that the Catholic Church decided to increase the fervour around the apparition of fatima to increase conversion, the increase of anti-communist message that later surrounded the event leads toward this theory. As for the sun, i'm not sure. Despite the report in the article, surely mass hysteria or optical illusion is more plausible than the sun zigzagging across the sky, with no gravitational affects here on earth.