On why God does not perform obvious miracles anymore and why God is not fair

Originally posted by Venit
reply to post by d60944

 

Intriguing, yet not proof of the existence of God. Children lie for various reasons, the decomposition rates of corpses vary due to the burial conditions. Not inconceveable that the Catholic Church decided to increase the fervour around the apparition of fatima to increase conversion, the increase of anti-communist message that later surrounded the event leads toward this theory. As for the sun, i'm not sure. Despite the report in the article, surely mass hysteria or optical illusion is more plausible than the sun zigzagging across the sky, with no gravitational affects here on earth.

The miracle is the miracle of the sun, plain and simple. This is the only independently variefiable fact from Fatima, verified by tens of thousands. The rest could well be lies, conincidental nondecomposition, fervour, spin, etc.

Regarding this central fact, as CS Lewis goes to immense pains to point out in his own book about the philosophical question of miracles, you are absolutely correct but only if you presume in advance that miracles are absolutely impossible. If you take an objective stance then the question is more accurately what is more likely? (a) Mass delusion, even amongst people who visited for the purposes of discrediting, even amongst the media, and tens of thousands of witnesses; (b) optical illusion; (c) a miracle - which means something impossible - eg. if the sun really had moved and really had caused immense gravitational effects then this would be more like normal science (although unusual in the extreme! - but at least measurable empirically). A miraculous feature would be total impossiblity to describe the event in terms of scientific laws.

It's also worth pointing out that even if the event was natural, or was some kind of opitcal illusion (option (b)), it was still a one-off, and the event had still been predicted to the day, place and moment several months in advance by some peasant kids. That in itself demands far more of mere chance. The answer is only "oh, it must be just chance" only if you have first ruled out absolutely the possibility of a miracle. The argument is not objective because it works from the basis that what it sets out to prove is correct (i.e. that there is no god), and the fact that a miracle is really the only tenable proof towards god's existence makes this approach disingenuous, to put it mildly:

"God does not exist. The only proof that would cause me to change my mind is if there were miracles."
"Here is a miracle. Change your mind."
"Ah, yes but you see God does not exist so this cannot be a miracle."

If miracles are possible and god could exist, then the question is whether the event was more likely to be a miracle, or whether still the probability of ludicrous chance still outweighs it. Personally I don't favour chance's chances in this one :-)

But then again I don't actually know how likely a miracle is, even if god does exist.

Hmm. But you see there's no necessary causal connection between a miracle and God's existence. A miracle could very well happen, though stupendously improbable, yet that is no reason to ascribe that to a creator or Abrahamic god. It could be chance.

reply to post by Venit


If you have not read Humes "On Miracles" You might find it enjoyable.

He is arguing against miracles, not for them, so this is not an attempt on my part to convince you of anything.

It is a rather short piece as philosophical works go, and it is infused with a fair degree of humor.

Originally posted by Venit
Hmm. But you see there's no necessary causal connection between a miracle and God's existence. A miracle could very well happen, though stupendously improbable, yet that is no reason to ascribe that to a creator or Abrahamic god. It could be chance.

But this is to state the same circular argument again in many senses. The question (unless you insist on the unproven axiom that there is de facto no god [by whatever definition you choose like Abrahamic / creator / etc.]) must still be - keeping objective opinion open - is the event more likely to be a stupendous chance or a work of such a god. The question is really one of how probable it is that there is a god compared to how probable the stupendous chance is. I don't know how to answer that, but at least to me it is the right question.

This has nothing to do with proofs of god's existence as such, because also when something is "chance" then there is no such thing, correctly speaking, as the proof that it is chance. There is no logical, philosophical or mathematical proof that a given piece of data is the product of random generation. (Such a proof cannot exist without causing a paradox).

Whether it is chance or whether there is a god seems to me to be unanswerable questions, matters of faith indeed. Both of them. You choose.

To me, I find the idea of a god simpler and more reasonable than the idea of extraordinary chances like Fatima (the more you unpick the event the more staggering comes the chances if it is pure chance). The odds are just stacked impossibly high - for me - one way.

PS Lewis's own work is largely his own response to Hume.

wow, i really didn't think i would be getting this many responses, being the large part of ATS members are non believers, or so it seems when i read other posts. we have addressed the miracle issue very thouroughly I think, and i am leaning towards some of the larger miracles i mentioned actually did not happen, because i cannot see why God would just stop doing things on that grand scale, yet i do believe in God, that is not shakeable, i just don't know him. as for the idea of fairness, i have not really received any answers that truly address the problem that most people are not raised in situations to give them a prior notion to Christ, and i find it very unfair and unlikable that so many may be left out because of this. my heart craves a sensible solution to this. But thank you to all that have posted, believers and non believers, you have all been quite nice, staying away from rude comments that do not help, i am happy for that.

Originally posted by Enigma Publius
as for the idea of fairness, i have not really received any answers that truly address the problem that most people are not raised in situations to give them a prior notion to Christ, and i find it very unfair and unlikable that so many may be left out because of this. my heart craves a sensible solution to this.

Sensible solutions abound in Christianity on this topic. As C.S. Lewis is on my mind....:

“Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him… But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord I am no son of Thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord is it rue, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said. It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites.

I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?

I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all of my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me though wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek."

C. S. Lewis, "The Last Battle", The Chronicles of Narnia

This is the same theology as expounded in Matt.35:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

This should go partway to giving an orthodox response to your questions about any worry of "unfairness" in dealing with those who have not heard Gospel direct...

Cheers.

for your consideration I AM THAT AM the self existent person more appropriate than GOD word. As for the miracles all the hidden things shall be revealed all that is knowable shall be known.When that occurs what seemed to be a miracle becomes a truth proclaimed which is part of why we are.The fact that we can even consider these things should disprove unbelief. In him was no trickery.

reply to post by d60944


thank you for that. big fan of Lewis.

Maybe he doesn't do miracles because you touch yourself at night. On a serious note, god doesn't exist, nor is there any intrinsic value in anything. And if you are telling us that by saying god doesn't exist that means we are polluting your thread then you are just closed minded!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAWR I R MAD!!!!!!!!!!! Nah...basically dude/dudette you asked for thoughts. We give thoughts. If you don't like our thoughts then I suggest leaving?

Here's an idea, just kinda throwing this out there..

For talkings sake, we'll say "God" did create the world, and everything in it, including the human race.

When "He" created us, who's to say "He" required that we think of "Him" ?
I'd like to think that if "God" created us, "He" wouldn't require that we think of "Him", only that we think.

Of course, there are plenty of ways for someone to find holes in this arguement, but as i said, it's just an idea.

If the above was true, why would "God" produce miracles for us, if in effect, "He" left us to our own devices.

Yrael.

All you have to do to see a miracle is open your eyes. What about all the lives that are changed by prayer.
The sun comes up each day doesn't it? The earth is provided with the rain it needs, the trees still bloom in spring. Babies are born healthy every day of the world. Why are you asking such a question? Sad that you do not see miracles, they are all around you.

Thought I would give this one a bump up so that it can join the crowd with the others.

Quite obviously, the matter has been solved, else why would there be additional posts on why God doesn't do that whole miracle thing.

Did we decided yet if iti is because God doesn't exist or is it that he does and they're not praying hard enough?

I assume this thread came to a conclusion so could someone enlighten me?

Originally posted by MrDudle
Maybe he doesn't do miracles because you touch yourself at night. On a serious note, god doesn't exist, nor is there any intrinsic value in anything. And if you are telling us that by saying god doesn't exist that means we are polluting your thread then you are just closed minded!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RAWR I R MAD!!!!!!!!!!! Nah...basically dude/dudette you asked for thoughts. We give thoughts. If you don't like our thoughts then I suggest leaving?

Oh. Sorry. I should have read a little farther into the posting. God does not perform miracles for the OP because he/she touches themselves at night. Thank you, I hadn't realized that this was the reason.

Can you pass this on to the other threads?

Wait! I'll do it for you.

Moocow, I am doing well. I'm sorry I missed a few grenades. How's this:

Greed doesn't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Politicians don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Guns don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Drug traffickers don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

How's that? I can keep going.

It was Jesus, not Stalin, that killed 20 million Russians during the Cold War.

It was also Jesus that decided all girl babies in China had no value and forced sterilizations on women.

In his spare time, he created the chemical weapon program used by the Japanese against the Chinese during WWII, and passed it along to Saddam Hussein.

Castro and Che were closet Catholics and that's the real reason they were killing people in Cuba and South America.

Idi Amin was an evagelical Christian, so was Pol Pot...they were just pretending to be atheists to throw people off the scent.

Let's not forget that Jesus also created nuclear weaponry over a glass of wine.


Yes, these threads are always so productive. Do you feel better? I certainly do. I'll be posting this on the other threads as well since, well, there are so many of them.

So yeah, I'm on this vastly different thread about miracles not happening than the thread about amputees not getting their arm regenerated through prayer, and wondering why no one is posting about this vastly different subject matter.

Maybe I should have a prayer vigil and see if anyone shows up?

reply to post by A Fortiori


Hmmm well not sure who you want to talk to...but I am what showed up....something you want to talk about?

Im the OP's sister, I guess you are wondering if the OP concluded an answer to this thread? Well I should not speak for him...but I will say his views are not mainstream views of what god would be, I dont think his answer caused him to change his nature of being spiritual though.

reply to post by Enigma Publius


1. He does. He does most in regions of the world where folks take the Bible and God at His Word in simple confident faith because they have no other hope and no 'developed world' conditioning that God doesn't do such things any more . . . such as in China, Indonesia, etc.

2. Billy Graham's organization investigated Mel Tari's book about such miracles in Indonesia and concluded it was essentially accurate.

3. God is gearing up to perform routinely more dramatic miracles than even in Old Testament times and than 2,000 years ago. These END TIMES WILL SEE children and others as agents of God facilitating God's dramatic solutions to human need far surpass even Biblical events.

4. At some point in these END TIMES--I don't know when--EVERY person coming to certain agents of God--extremely humble, initially no-name persons--every person will be healed regardless of their problem. Limbs will grow. Eyes will be replaced. Teeth will appear.

5. In these darkening times, darkness and evil are flooding the land. However, at some point, God will overtly rachet up the contending drama by not any longer allowing the enemy to get most of the air time and press.

*rolls eyes and pats nearest Christian on the head condescendingly*

Ahh, yes. You dear little idiots. Haven't we explained this already in ten million threads? God doesn't exist and you should listen to us because we're highly successful people with BMWs in the driveway of our Swiss Chalet and PhDs behind our names. None of us eek out miserable day jobs and/or live with our parents still. We have it all together not like you dumb, violent rednecks who still believe in a God!

Why don't you go bomb an abortion clinic and fondle someone? I mean, that's what all you stupid Christians do. We atheists and pagans get to feel superior because our ideology *cough Marxism cough* was never responsible for killing 20 to 60 million people, and no pagans *cough Rome cough Sumeria cough Philistine cough Egypt cough Vikings cough ancient China cough Aztecs cough Maya* ever killed anyone and supplanted their gods and holidays with ours. We know this because we know that all important history started in eleven hundred of the common era. We know this because we're that much smarter than you dumb, violent hicks.

So please bow before our superior intellect, mature attitudes, and perfect grammar. Let us do your thinking for you because we are all intellectual giants with great jobs and respect from our community. Remember, people don't kill people, religion kills people.

Are we done yet? Seriously. Are we done? Have not these same arguments been exhausted on ten million of these threads?

Are you still there because I have the undoubtable answer to your question
a reply to: Enigma Publius

a reply to: Enigma Publius

think Matthew 7: 17-23 is very clear:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'"

So it doesn't matter if you an atheist or not, if you have good morals then you will enter. The Christians who pretend to follow Gold (Lord, Lord) but in reality don't, will not enter the kingdom, according to scripture.

As for Miracles, that are done by people that are one with God. Today too many are more interested in iphones instead of their inner self. Our selfish materialistic nature drives us away from God.