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On why God does not perform obvious miracles anymore and why God is not fair

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posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 09:09 PM
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this thread is related to issues i have with God and the Bible, it is not meant to be "God bashing" or anything close, i do believe in God in my heart, i just do not like the way he is portrayed in the bible, and i am creating this with the hope that someone can bring up things that help me better understand these things. possibly even make me feel better about them, because i must be missing something.
First: why doesn't God perform the obvious miracles like he did in the bible? by obvious i mean the seas parting, a burning bush, a man arising from the dead. No doubt someone will try and say something like this:
"God performs miracles everyday, he has answered my prayers before, i have seen someone that was dying suddenly become okay and well." this may be true. But i ask you, where are the big miracles that would be undeniable? in this day and age, with science and what have you making it harder to have faith in a book that has some very fundamental flaws (i.e. the earth being around 6,000 years old etc.) why, when we need it more than ever before, does God not perform these huge feats that could not be explained away? In this age of doubt, when we need God to show himself more than ever, why does he stay silent? Is he in some type of slumber because we have not pleased him in so long? Or is he simply a God that does not intervine, only create and watch. It makes no sense to me that the God in the old testament did so many wonderous things that made people believe, when back then it would not have required so much to make people believe in the first place? Back then a simple magic trick could have convinced someone you were Godly, but God went all out and parted Seas, made mens nets spill over with fish in the new testament, let his Son heal the lepars, but we see none of that now.
Also: the idea of coming to Christ being the ONLY way to get to Paradise, Heaven, is not reasonable at all. There are people who are pure of heart who do not believe nii him, yet they deserve as much as anyone else to be rewarded when they pass, but Christians will tell you that it IS fair because the bible states that everyone will have a chance to know god before they die, and it was that persons choice to NOT believe. this is true, it was thie choice, but was there ever really a choice? let me explain; imagine this:
a person comes to you from another country, likely someone of another skin color, and tells you that Christ is not the way to paradise, and that you must instead, worship the moon to get to heaven. they tell you that this is the only way to be rewarded, and this is your fair chance to come to him, how many of you would believe them? Really? i wouldn't either. see they were not offering proof at all, only telling you that what your parents taught you, and what all your friends and neighbors believe, is wrong, and you must have blind faith that the moon is the true God. Well no one would, at least not many would, i can't say none, i'm sure somebody would. this is exactly what we would ask of someone else however. They have been raised all their life to worship snakes, or a cow, or whatever, then comes this missionary telling them that they must give up all previous beliefs they have bveen taught by LOVED ones, a stranger knows what's best, who would believe that? And i know what some of you are already getting ready to say: the holy ghost would help convince them of the truth, it would be the equalizer that levels the field in that situation. The holy ghost would enter their heart and help convert them if their heart is open. To that i can only say this: If you can show me anything, any numbers suggesting a significant difference in numbers of people in the east who DO convert to Christianity, compared to numbers of people in the WEST converting to ISLAM, then you would have a point. But i'm willing to bet the numbers are about the same. so the holy spirit arguement is not valid, there is no great change in the number of people it touches converting. i cannot get behind a God who would not let a man into his kingdom because that man was not born with the same opprotunities to love him than another man, even though he is pure of heart, he cannot enter because his parents and his grandparents raised him a different way, and he never came to Christ when a stranger showed up on the doorstep with a couple of bibles. it's absurd. like i said , i do believe in God, but not one who picks and chooses based on the culture they are raised in. no, God would give anyone a chance if they had love for their fellow man, but nothing in the bible says this is enough, it says that man must believe in Christ. can someone help me understand this better? it seems all wrong.
I have posed both of these questions to preachers and ministers, and never gotten a respons that made sense, when confronted with this, they gave generic answers like "the holy spirit would fix this" or "that is what Christ was for" when this does not satisfy the question at all.

[edit on 9-10-2008 by Enigma Publius]




posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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The simplest answer is often the correct one and here is why god doesn't perform miracles: he/she/it doesn't exist. No proof, nothing.



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by Venit
 
i am not interested in that type of answer. everyone is entitled to an opinion, however if you made it clear in a thread of yours that was against the existance of God, if you made it clear that you had no interest in me coming on and saying "well he does exist though" i would respect that and i would not pollute your thread with statements you had no desire to discuss. it takes a lot of courage for a believer in God to admit they have doubts or questions about a certain aspect of it, please don't try to further inhibit that.



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 10:26 PM
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I'm inhibiting what now? Seriously, you posted a statement that you basically put the existence of god as a premise. I put forward an argument rejecting that premise, and now you tell me not to pollute your thread?

You said you had doubts about the existence of a deity, well now, it's better to discuss these without resorting to a veiled 'get out of my thread'.

Now let us discuss this in a reasonable manner.



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 10:39 PM
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This may not be the kind of answer you are looking for either, but it was an intriguing question.

I would say that the answer to your question about why God is not fair, is that it is because the Bible was written by people from one specific region almost 2000 years ago.

I would say that the God in Christianity is the same God at the root of all religions, even those that are polytheistic. In the polytheistic religions there is a "originator" a singular Divinity that then "begets" other Gods. God has always been fair. It is people who are not fair. It is people that try to take the God of everything that is, every human, every blade of grass, and selfishly claim him only for themselves and those they like.

It is people who insist that their writings about God are the only way, and that their stories about God are the correct ones. You have heard God in your heart telling you this cannot be true. Why would God create some people only to damn them to hell because they would never hear of Jesus?

One should never confuse, in my opinion, the words of people with the words of God. Worshiping a book, or a scroll, in my opinion, is no different from worshiping a Golden Calf. It is idolatry. God doesnt care what name you call him, I dont think, as long as you are speaking to the living God, and not some idol. If you really want to know the true answer to these questions set aside the words of people, the idols of faith, and ask God. Let God tell you.

In regards to why miracles no longer occur to make people believe, I would say miracles rarely occur because there are so few who DO believe in God. Miracles do not occur to make people have faith, miracles are the natural outcome of a truly faithful person listening to and acting as instructed by God. Notice in every one of your scenarios that God does not cause the miracle without someone present who is listening to Gods own voice. People today believe in the writings, the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, etc. They do not seek God on their own as Jesus did, as Moses did, as Abraham did, or even Mohammad did.

Jesus was not only reading scripture. Moses was not only reading scripture. Nor was Noah when he built the Ark. Each one of these miracles involved an active listener to the voice of God. If you want to see a miracle, you need to listen to the voice of God, not read the words of men. God creates miracles through those who not only believe in the words of men, but who believe not only that God exists, but that God is a living presence that can and will still speak to you. If you have ears to listen, and faith in what you hear.

It will not be a booming voice from the sky, it will be a knowing that fills you from the inside. God has never stopped speaking to us. It is only that it is a rare person who recognizes the voice of God and actually listens.

Just my two cents.



[edit on 9-10-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 10:52 PM
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If there is something that could be a God, than it is not the ones of any religion. Religion is, was meant to be, a mass control system, that has the purpose to divide, set fear und guilt and not allow you to feel good and free by your own Self.

I believe that we are higher spirits going through the experience of all that could possibly be and are doing that forever, cause there is no time as such. And where there is no time, there can also be no space between a God and me, which means, that I am God. I am the center of the universe. And this way everyone feels because everyone is.

Everything is illusion. Even if you die and you see Jesus or Buddha, its illusion. That is because you are God and as long as you dont remember, you are creating Gods.

My opinion.



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by Enigma Publius
 


I know it may sound like too easy an answer, but perhaps the miracles never happened in the first place. It's difficult to rely on the writings of men to fully justify the truth of the occurrences. However, there was recently a woman that was dead for 17 1/2 hours before spontaneously reviving


For more than 17 hours doctors failed to detect any brain activity, despite extensive attempts to revive her, including pioneering treatment to lower her body's temperature in a bid to stimulate the brain.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Video: www.youtube.com...

There was also recently a child dead five hours, placed in cold storage only to revive on its own. Unfortunately the child later died.


A baby girl born prematurely Monday as a result of induced labour at a northern Israeli hospital 'came back to life' after being pronounced dead by doctors and spending five hours in the cooler at the hospital's cryogenic laboratory.

www.israelnews.net...

Whether or not these are miracles is up to the individual to decide. Such is the same with the bible.

As for accepting Jesus as the only means to get to heaven, I wouldn't want to have to answer for holding such a belief, thereby condemning people who's only sin could be categorized as ignorance of a man.



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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Illusions made some great points (Dont agree with everything you said but)
What he said about why miracles dont happen much anymore ..sounds sort of similar to what I would have said .


You know I got to thinking more about the bible and the whole world needs to hear about Jesus first ..
Has it ever occured to anyone of you that that BOOK was written in the ME ...and the apostles made their rounds ALL OVER the regions before they died even .,and even after they died many more spread out all over the world from there ......It took a few thousand years to even get here to us ....we were actually just about the last ones to have heard about him ...so the ME peoples all got to hear about CHRIST FIRST ...
And they did exactly as the Jews did ..and even the Christians at Corinth and several other Churchs and religions ..they all went back to their old gods and their old religions (they went back to Egypt spiritually speaking ) ....that was their CHOICE to go and serve the Gods that they were SHOWN and told many times in two thousand years that they were not gods at all .....its hard to teach old dogs new tricks isnt it ? ...
They saw the miracles ..they still chose their idols ..
Wouldnt we do the same if he did that in our time ?
I believe we would ..
Well alot of us did do just that ..since we first heard and believed ..

Personally I do not think it would matter much even if God did yell from heaven and say hey meet me at the mountain yonder way and I will talk with you ..I wonder how many would even show up ...most would dismiss God speaking as some trick and just blow it off anyway .
They do that now ..they say ..that was not a miracle that was just coincidence and chance happenings ..or they say ..God isnt talking that is all in your head ...etc ..


Sorry Enigma I really do not know how to answer any of your questions .
I personally never really cared if he showed me a miracle or not ..because I just KNOW HE EXISTS and have been through so much that there is no need for me to ask him for signs ....and I believe there are many miracles today and that he has shown me many ..I know thats what you didnt want to hear ..lol ..sorry thats really all I have to offer right now ...I will ponder your questions though and truly pray that you get your answers ..and I pray that God puts that doubting thomas spirit to rest in you once and for all ...



PS ...just so you know ..I think they are really good questions and I have even asked some of them myself over the years ...
I would like to know why God didnt just lock the devil up before he could even reek havoc on the earth ..but I have since learned that the Devil also has his purpose and it will all be towards and for the Glory of GOD in the end.So I quit asking that question ....
Everything has its purpose and I have seen that for sure even in my own life.


[edit on 9-10-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Oct, 9 2008 @ 11:52 PM
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Sorry ..I have a few more things to add .

The word says that if we believe ..greater things than Jesus did ..we would do .
I think the reason we dont see that happen much is because of so much UNBELIEF .



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 12:07 AM
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My dear brother,

I think you have witnessed a miracle yourself, about our mother. TO me, a miracle, is as simply as God showing himself to someone through their spirit. God showed our mother Theeself (not literally God) but showed her a place that was not of this world, to me, that is a miracle.

You and I have had endless talks about 'energy' of something. We have seen positive energy and negative energy. YOu know they are there, we didnt make them up in our minds. What you are having trouble with, now that you are opening your heart more to the spiritual side of things, is understanding Biblical ties to the spiritual itself. Use your intuition. The intuition is only helpful if you ground yourself that your life is not for you and you alone, its for the works of God. You dont have to go around living like a monk, you just need to let all opportunities humble you, no matter how hard the experience is. So many times people blame Satan or evil forces for the wrongs in this world. The wrongs that people do need to be excepted as the peoples own wrongs. Our adversary, is our ego, and boy can it get us into some trouble as well as darken our soul so much, God can not dwell there.

The Bible-people want to except it as entirely by the works of God and place God in this mind set that this is all that he is, whatever the Bible says. We know our mother believes this, you know that I dont. Instead of worrying yourself with what things are true and false, just know that God wants us to live a certain way, that way is to live for others more then ourselves. Be humble, bring peace, serve love.

How can a correct story of the first man and woman get past down without distortion? I find it impossible. I find this illogical. Corse we dont have to agree, for everyones path might be different for particular reasons since we all seem to have different lessons to learn. Your spirit is obviously opening up, this is a precious time for you. Place it in Gods hands, dont worry about the miracles ect....religions, to me, actually limits our souls growth. If the spirit needs to show us something, our mind must be open. I think you are right where you are supposed to be, growing in spirit.

When I broke away from the traditional belief, it was so hard, because I had no book to guide me per say. But the spirit began showing me incredible dreams and guiding me about living humbly. The book didnt do this for me, it was my open heart who was seeking not for selfish reasons. Worry about God, if God wants you to worry about Christ, Thee will show you this.

I believe that taking Christ into our hearts, means to enter Christs mind and his actions. Take into your mind what Christ did, he offered his flesh for us to learn. This is such a humble action, he lived for others. When you ponder on what Christ went through, you will see that the cross he carried was ever so heavy, ever so hard. But the confidence shows, that he was sure he was going to be with his Father. My knees want to buckle every time I think about how he truly lived for us. Was he a sacrifice, I dont know...my opinion was he was an offering. This, I believe, is the purpose. We offer our flesh life for the works of God. A sacrifice is something that is needed, a must, its forceful thinking. To me, God is not forceful, he is patient and mercy. He will keep giving you opportunities to grow in your spirit, he will wait....not force you...to come our of your own will.

Much love,
Sis



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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People think God is not fair because they are using there own scale of what fair is. If God lays out a guide on how to live a joyful, fruitful existence, and nations fail to adhere to it, they can't then turn around and say their predicament is not fair. Even trials are a blessing if you have understanding, and some are merely a witness to others, which is what this entire age is, a witness for all eternity on what happens when we turn from God. As for miracles, they are performed daily, they just aren't recognized.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by Enigma Publius
 





it takes a lot of courage for a believer in God to admit they have doubts or questions about a certain aspect of it


Courage...you meant common sense right?

As for the miracle angle...the one miracle I experienced was yesterday; the 405 freeway had NO bumper-to-bumper traffic...hell, I got home in half the time!





posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by Enigma Publius
First: why doesn't God perform the obvious miracles like he did in the bible? by obvious i mean the seas parting, a burning bush, a man arising from the dead.


if by miracle you mean divine intervention, then one must ask what the criteria is for god to intervene.

satan´s tests to jesus shed some light on this. in one of the tests, satan told jesus to throw himself off the wall of the temple because surely god would send angels to rescue him. obviously with us, this doesnt happen. if i throw myself off a wall, i cannot expect saving.

the key difference between jesus and me is that im imperfect, jesus was perfect. perfection means to meet god´s standard. jesus didnt sin. the books of romans points out that the penalty for sin is death. since jesus never sinned, he actually deserves to live.

if jesus actually deserves to live according to god´s justice, then god would protect him.

so then this raises the question. why did jesus die, and why do sometimes imperfect people get saved (like daniel with the lions)?

the answer is god´s will. jesus said that he was sent to do not his will but of the one that sent him (God). it was god´s will that jesus died which had to do with the ransom and is a whole other discussion. the point is, that jesus died because god had to let him die, even though he deserved (keyword: deserved) god´s intervention.

imperfect humans receive divine intervention when it furfills god´s will. jesus´ healing enable jesus to establish that he was in fact the messiah and was sent from god. it would be hard if not impossible to do that without miraculous works. the apostles needed miracles to help establish the congregation. again, it would have been hard if not impossible without.

even the parting of the red sea was in harmony with god´s purpose to save the isrealites and eventually get them to the promise land.

i know there are alot of stories about people being ¨saved¨ in one way or another. but one has to ask several questions, in what way is the person being saved bringing glory to god? daniel being saved from the lions forced the king to acknowledge god. when paul was in prison, the earthquake that freed him helped the jailman to find the truth. miracles specifically glorify god. if the situation doesnt bring glory to god, then why do some get saved and some dont? is it not possible that its not a miracle but actually something we just simply dont understand? remember, apostles were killed too.

which brings us to the next part. why not today? this was touched upon in another thread.

today, we have the complete bible along with 6,000 years of the testimony of human rule. with this information, one does not need miracles to arrive at the truth of matters. if one does not need miracles, then why would god provide miracles?


in this day and age, with science and what have you making it harder to have faith in a book that has some very fundamental flaws (i.e. the earth being around 6,000 years old etc.)

this was gone over in depth in another thread, the days are not literal but rather denote a period of time.

the only ones that think the days a literal and christians who dont look deeper into their bible and atheists who like to use it to prove that the bible is trash.


why, when we need it more than ever before, does God not perform these huge feats that could not be explained away? In this age of doubt, when we need God to show himself more than ever, why does he stay silent?


2 reasons, one because its not needed. and second, because he said he would allow people to deceive themselves if they so chose to

2 thess 2:
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
[14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

this is a commonly mistranslated scripture so i included the context. basically god permits the delusion. people fool themselves and others. satan himself uses signs and lying wonders. god sits back and permits it. why? because ¨him, whose coming is after¨ or jesus will destroy the delusion with his coming. so basically what you are asking for IS coming. and you can be prepared for it because of the ¨gospel¨ or accounts of jesus, the whole bible even.


Or is he simply a God that does not intervine, only create and watch.


certainly not. god abhores injustice. his tolerance of it is only because it just for him to wait. remember, the preaching has to be finished before the end of the world.

1 tim 2: 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Also: the idea of coming to Christ being the ONLY way to get to Paradise, Heaven, is not reasonable at all.


i dont have the energy to go over this right at the moment but i will later, i promise



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by Enigma Publius
 


which god are you on about then?

you say you dont follow the God of the bible, but you question why the miracles in the bible do not happen?

they do, just look. The question is always going to be do you accept them as such


20-day-old baby was found alive floating on a mattress in her parents' damaged restaurant in northern Malaysia after the region was slammed by tidal waves, it was reported today(Dec 28).


source



He said, "And I just stretched my hands…." He showed us how he put his arms toward the wave. "And I said, 'Based on the strength of the Scriptures, where it says that when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall raise up a standard against it." Sanders said he was speaking to the wave when he said, "I command you [wave] in the name of Jesus, stop!'"


source

how many people are resuscitated?

The jews were persecuted almost to extinction but they prayed for rest and got a land of their own. a people displaced from a country of their own for hundreds of years, only to return.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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Yes yes, very nice. But those 'miracles' could just be luck, pure statistical anomalies? They happened, but the survival of an infant is no evidence for the existence of a creator god, much less the existence of a deity with the attributes commonly ascribed.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:24 AM
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whatever

the word Could stands out there.

can you show me otherwise?



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:43 AM
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haha the word could stands out? because a statistical anomaly is less likely than God? Oh please..



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:45 AM
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Ah, sorry, i forgot to add this: Surely the burden of proof lies with you to prove a supernatural explanation, not with me.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by Venit
Yes yes, very nice. But those 'miracles' could just be luck, pure statistical anomalies? They happened, but the survival of an infant is no evidence for the existence of a creator god, much less the existence of a deity with the attributes commonly ascribed.


What is the difference between a miracle and a statistical anomaly? I question the existence of statistical anomalies simply based on the truth that numbers are an infinite system making every possibility possible no matter what the odds. So how can anything be 'anomalous' in the truest sense of the word? Simply because we don't observe the event enough?

All of this is in the eye of the beholder. From my eye these events are an indication that we don't know everything there is to know. That to me is the essence of god. Believing that nothing can happen 'out of the ordinary' simply because I can't observe enough of the universe to judge what is ordinary and what is extraordinary.



posted on Oct, 11 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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i mea mracles witnessed by millions or thousands of winesses, and HUGE miracles, not a personal one!




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