Massive financial bailout fails in the House

reply to post by lynn112


That kind of spike is either good news, or disgusting speculation which is DANGEROUS. It means that tomorrow is going to be a panic driven speculative market.

Might be the usual Plunge Protection team in action, even if it is, their short-term miracles wont last. Or another useless injection.

Let's see...,

Price-fixing
Derivatives
Junk paper

Are people seriously thinking we need to continue this nonsense?

Paradigm shifts are always catastrophic in the eyes of the comfortable status quo proponents.

Yes, we will suffer a great deal; but you know, it hurts to pull a fish hook out of you. Would you rather have it stay in?

reply to post by grimreaper797

everything's relative. if there is a collapse, they enter a 3% recession while the US faces into 20% (wild guess obviously, all figures look realistic right now). if the recession lasts a decade then who comes out with a stronger economy? besides, if there was a recession the chinese and the russian people have a lower level of expectation and are slower to react severely. they could better wear it than the US. in the long term, crashing the US may seem less than repulsive.

reply to post by grimreaper797


You fail to realize that if the FED didn't flood the the market with that 630 billion dollars, and this bill failed, true capitalism would have sorted it out. We would have had buying power in our dollar, which means a boost in our local economy. But, they knew the bill wasn't going to pass, so they released 630 million dollars into the market to put pressure on the American people to submit to the demands of special interest groups. We would be in for a rough ride, but at least that rough ride starts now without any manipulation from our government or the Federal Reserve and it's issuance of taxed money!

reply to post by Maxmars


This isn't a fish hook. This is a knife sticking out of you. You remove it and you will die of blood loss. This is the situation we face. Many people don't understand how close we are to a banking collapse.

Originally posted by wutone

Originally posted by mybigunit
The system needs to crash. We need to get rid of the FED and start following the constitution. Lets ditch the 16th Amendment also.

As painful as this sounds, I 100% agree.

The American economic system is now all about money. It is all about new investment schemes and obtaining credit. There is no innovation. There are hardly any new goods which are being developed. Why is it that hedge fund managers make more than engineers and inventors? Why is it that corporations that produce anything are moving overseas while corporations that give us credit cards are still running strong in the highest taxed areas?

Correct we buy and sell paper all day. There is no production...there is no innovation and now this is where we find ourselves. Mark my words jobs will start to come back. I think the right people have woken up.

Let the hole thing burn wall street banks the total system. ITs based on a lie and the only way to fix the problem is to start over. I know it sound extreme but if we prop up this sick sad system It will only be worst later on

reply to post by pieman


Thats not how it works. They don't experience a slight recession if the credit market freezes. We are ALL dependent on credit in this age, and on eachother. You cant look at history because we are in a new system of economics. This isn't 1929, not even close.

reply to post by mybigunit


Actually let me correct this, is not money per say is about revolving credit.

Our nation is not a wealth builder anymore so we can not back our currency with anything but credit.

IOUs, and borrowing from our friends the Asian bankers.

BTW I saw briefly in the news the protest going on in front of the Markets in NY.

reply to post by grimreaper797


What I meant was what would happen to my debt balance? Would it dissappear with the company? Or would it roll over to a new company/card? I understand credt cards will probably be useless very soon.

Also why don't they just give the $700B to the taxpayers, to use to pay off a fair share of the debt? That makes a lot more sense to my completely non-economical mind

[edit on 29-9-2008 by XTexan]

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


That would be very short term. In a couple months, banks like citigroup, having just acquired wachovia, will go under. More banks will go defensive or just collapse, credit will freeze, and as a result, small business will fail on a massive scale.

Democrat Response

Here is the Democratic response from Barney Frank....

GOD BLESS THE USA!

And thank GOD for the House Republicans.

My official voting template will be to vote FOR the ones that voted "no" and to vote against the ones that voted "yes". THIS IS AMERICA, NOT CHINA. NOT THE USSR. NOT FRANCE.

This gives me some hope that America still exists in some form.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
reply to post by pieman

 

They cannot afford to have the US fall. It is really that simple. The amount of money invested in the success of our country is disgusting. Its hard to understand, but other countries lose if they call in our debt. They don't really gain if they call in because our country would be crushed, and as a result, they would get hurt badly from the move that they made. It is self-defeating.

Also, oil is down because we are expecting a HUGE economic downturn where people won't be able to afford to spend. Oil going down is a good sign that investors expect our country to have a VERY rough future.

I agree with most of what you say, but at the same time you need to understand that this is going to happen if not now then at some point in the future. Of course these countries can't afford the U.S. to fails, that in it of itself should let you relaize that at this point the U.S. is become nothing more than a HUGE SUB-PRIME MORTGAGE for all this countries that decide to lend or invest to this country.

They are investing a dollar in us and by the time we paid them back they are going to get less than that, with the dollar so devalued they be lucky if they get .50 on the dollar for their investment. The economic downturn is coming regardless of this bill or some other version of it come to pass.

The same way the housing boom was unsustainable, this current form of capitalism here in the U.S. is also unsustainable, this is not about a market correction ia about an ENTIRE SYSTEM correction, and instead of a patch here and there, we should let the market and the system correct themselves and its already happening, is not pretty but is certainly needed.

[edit on 29-9-2008 by Bunch]

reply to post by marg6043


Yeah, that's exactly what the European Union did with their constitution when everyone voted 'No'. Thet redressed it, gave it a facejob and got people to fall for it and vote Yes on an almost identical constitution. When it came down to the real vote, Ireland said 'No'. What happened? Basically the EU said 'Wrong answer. Vote again.' Democracy at its finest.

reply to post by grimreaper797


So what's the difference? A few trillion dollars that we don't have to repay with higher taxes later on. The better of two evils.

reply to post by grimreaper797

the credit markets don't rely solely on the US banks, especially in china or russia. that was my point in the first place, if the US was in hoc to europe i'ld say you had a fair point, but i really have my doubts weather mostly communist china or only a little bit communist russia really are so entangled with US capital markets. the big growth in both countries is government driven and commodity based as i understand it.

I think if it passed the Dow would have gone up a couple hundred, but then start going down afterwards, maybe after a few days, especially after the next Business to collapse. But the markets would eventually continue downward. I'm glad there's still some out there who aren't going to be bullied. Either way We The People would have paid, bill gets passed we foot the bill. If it doesn't pass our 401k's will plummet for a time.

I think they did the right thing. After the initial turmoil the markets will be stronger in time, unless another major dummy financial folds.

Bah, this was nothing.
Good thing Congress kept the money.
The market only dropped 11% which is nothing compared to the 20% of Black Monday or the Great Depression. This whole issue has been totally overblown out of proportion. Bad business practices get absorbed into the system, not paid for by outside interference which would lead to an even deeper hole.
To put it bluntly, the poor people who got the risky mortgages were never going to pay them no matter what. The bankers who issued them knew this from day one. A big pile of phoney capital propping up the system.