New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

[Actually, I've been meaning to ask, you're a mother of a 20 year old, now going by what my mother is like, I have no idea why you frequent these forums. You're obviously not the typical]

I also have a 32 year old son and I have 4 grandkids

I am young (48) and no I am not typical .Maybe I never grew up lol ..
My youngest son says I am his homey mother lol .
Because I listen to him ...I dont shove anything down his throat .(I have talked with him about everything and I did my best to be an example (a good one) but never forced him to go to church or any such thing) .I do give him advice both motherly and Christian advice (at least the best I can ) .I try and let him make up his own mind about things ..But I am also mother when I need to be .
I mean he is old enough now to live his own life and make his own choices.

He is making all the wrong choices right now and is as confused about things as you are .I dont give up on him and I wont ever .In fact he is at the age now where only life can teach him.His bad decisions are truly hurting him and messing up his life ..But one can hope and pray that he learns from it and changes it before he makes mistakes that he cant fix (Like Jail or something ) .
It breaks my heart to see anyone at that age going through what they are because I DIDNT FORGET those years in my life .So I understand where yall are coming from .But at the same time I also understand where you may be going to (as in making huge mistakes that will affect the rest of your life) ....I was very lucky (or should I say God was with me alot) I did alot of things that could have been drastic for my future here ..but somehow I managed to get out of the messes (with Gods help) messes that I created ...
And I believe had I continued down that road I was on ..I would not have been so lucky and things would have gotten worse and I may not have even been alive right now to even tell my story.


Oh PS.I came here because I want to know whats really going on in our world (Like worldy events and scientific info etc ) and this forum has lots of info to sift through and there are alot of people I learn from in here .Even if they are not Christian I believe they have some of the truth about some things that I dont know about .(especially worldly events)
I sift through it all and take out what I want and toss the rest if I dont think it sounds right .I am also a curious one and this place fascinates me so many different peoples with so many different opinions .



[edit on 9-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

Ah, So u de su neh.

My mum is 54 has 1 son apart form me and no grand kids. My half brother (different dad) Jonathan, is 23 and I'm 19. Actually when mum was with my brothers father he was so abusive that she ended up running away with little Jonathan before he turned 1. Eventually she married my dad and had me. My dad was never a good father (although he was never abusive, even when he was drunk) and she eventually divorced him.

My mum cares not what is happening in this world because unconsciencely she doesn't want to get involved. Wilfully ignorant I believe the term is.

But for me, knowing and taking responsibility, like every citizen should, is a matter of principal.

So now that we know a little about eachother ..I am very glad to meet you Wolf .
I am sorry you have been through so much too,just dont let it all get to you Everything I went through I just had to toughen up get over it and move on and of course forgive in order to do that ...I do pray you find your way whatever way that may be.

Bah, it's not getting to me. Mum and dad divorced when I was 7 and even before then dad was never around so I never really knew him. 5 years ago I went to work at his computer shop and then learnt for myself that he was an ass and because of all his debt to various people (upwards of $NZ 100k), I was probably going to get sucked into that aswell- and I did, so he fled to Australia this year and I'm not concerned. They say you shouldn't be surprised that a rooster will crow. He crowed and I'm not upset.

I've shed a lot of my baggage over the last year and am looking to the future.


It's interesting how you get used to baggage and the weight that comes with it. When you get rid of it, you feel unusual for a while as you adjust to the freedom.

Check out my new thread. www.abovetopsecret.com...

to the original poster:

I would love to start a correspondance with you on u2u, as there are too many attacks by ego's on here.

Basically Im a Christian Mystic having experienced God, divine realities, enlightenment and so on. I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, yogi's, mormons, hindu's, college professors and so on.

I've been through what you've been through and I talk/debate with others who are where you are.

Basically it comes down to experiencing God directly for yourself. The Bible is 1. literal, 2. Symbolic, 3. Mystical 4. Observational (authors wrote down what they observed) and also 5. Metaphysical.

But there are practices, techniques, meditations, and energies emanating from the Bible and everything I just posted.

What Jesus does directly to you (yes he did and still does exist) is to give you a direct experience of Ego death. Right now is scary because your ego is grasping onto old forms and ways. That's why you had all those battles with pastors and Christians, because your soul is ready to undergo the direct transformation of Spiritual rebirth ....i.e. the death of your ego and Birth of the Holy Spirit within you.

The church, fundamentalism, literalism, services on Sundays, reading the Bible ....all that stuff is dead as long as you think you are your ego and it hasnt died yet. As you go on more and more along the path, the old you will pass away and the new you will see Divine reality everywhere and within all things including services on sundays, friends, enemies, the Bible, and so.

You will feel and realize your own soul and there will no longer be fear of death. You will know for sure that your body is just a shell.

But all the intellectual wrestling with literalism and seeming contradictions, those are all traps from allowing you to go further. You just have to let go and "Be" or as Christians say (even though most dont understand this) is to let go and let God.

A Christian Mystic is a scientist of the soul, of the inner you, of God, of the SPiritual planes. When you experience these things then you will know they are all real because there are thousands upon thousands of us on this planet that have 1 foot on earth and the other in heavenly realms.

But to experience these things you have to desire them and seek them with all your might. Its like a store, you can either window shop as you walk by the store, or actually go into the store and experience the goods directly first hand. Right now your just a window shopper that's passing by a bunch of stores ....they will all be empty until you finally gather up the nerve to enter the one where God is waiting for you to experience him and his attributes.

Originally posted by dominicus
But all the intellectual wrestling with literalism and seeming contradictions, those are all traps from allowing you to go further.

Well that's what you label them. The intellectual will label the doors through perception to truth.... which will contrast your spiritual realms as delusions of conviction.

reply to post by dominicus


Man, I wish I give myself a cool title like you. I'd like to be something like an Acolyte of the Unknowable or a Cosmic Disciple. But if I did, I'd feel like a bit of a fraud.

reply to post by Good Wolf


MRS. I CAN TELL THAT YOU ARE VERY CONFUSED, AND REALLY IS NOT
YOUR FAULT, I ONCE WAS ALSO AND IT WASN'T MY FAULT,IT'S JUST THE
WORLD AND IMPERFECTION,ARE NATURAL FLAWS AND LIMITED CAPACIT
-IES,I ONCE ATTENDED TO THE J/W MEETINGS,MY MOTHER ALMOST FORCED US TO GO THEIR,LIKE THEY CALL IT "THE TRUTH", AND I SAY THIS BECAUSE THEY USE IT SO MUCH,THAT MANY OF THEIR FOLLOWERS
BLINDLY HAVE FALLEN FOR THESE LIES AND I WAS ONE OF THEM. CONS-TANTLY, ARE BODY AND NATURE, HAS US, IN AN UNCONTROLABLE WAR,
I'M RESUMING QUIKLY,NOT GOING TO FIT ALL (INFOR.) 2. I NEW THAT GOD EXISTED BUT WHO TO LOOK TO,CONTINUESLY CRAVING FOR GOD
MY INTERIOR PERSON WAS COLLAPSING BECAUSE I WANTED TO CREATE
MY OWN GOD,NOT RESISTING ANYMORE,GOD IF YOU EXIST,I RENDER MY
-SELF TO YOU,WHO ARE YOU REALLY? I WAS SLEEP IN BED AND SUDDEN- LY,I SEE MYSELF SCREEMING AND CRYING OUT REPENT AND TURN FROM SINS AND RECONCILIATE WITH GOD, THROUGH CHRIST JESUS,I DID MY PART AND REPENTED IN THE NAME OF( JESUSCHRIST) WHO I CAME TO THINK WAS A FAKE, BECAUSE SO MANY EXPLOIT OTHERS,USING THIS NAME,EVEN MAKE WAR,INSLAVE,ROB,MANIPULATE LARGE MASSES,BUT
I FELT THAT MY CHEST WAS BURNING AND WHAT I FELT WAS MORE REAL
THAN LIFE ITSELF,I LOOKED SUDDENLY BEHIND ME THE URGENCY WAS SO GREAT UNCONTROLABLE,UP IN THE HEAVEN, BURNING BRILLIANTLY AND WHAT (SEEMED) TO LOOK LIKE THE SUN,I WAS ABLE TO LOOK AT WITH OUT HURTING MY EYES,A LIGHT THAT WAS SO BRILLIANT,THAT I
TODAY, NOW! UNDERSTAND WHY THE DICIPLES SAID, DIDN'T ARE HEART
-H BURN WITHIN US. I HAVE DEDICATED,MYSELF,WIFE,KIDS,AND MUCH OF MY TIME,TELLING OTHERS, RECONCILIATE WITH GOD,THROUGH JESUSCHRIST HE IS THE SAVIOUR,BUT YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP YOURSEL-
F TO GOD NOT MEN,MEN WILL CONFUSE YOU TO EXPLOIT YOU,THEIR ARE SOME WHO STILL FEAR BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND ALMI-
GHTY,WHO WILL SOON CRUSH SATAN,WHO HAS THE WORLD UNDER CO-
FUSING, AND NO WONDER HIS SONS ARE JUST LIKE HIM ,DECIVING OTHERS ACTING TO BE SENT BY GOD AND ALL THEY PREACH FOR IS FOR
PROFIT AND GAIN,WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS,DON'T GIVE A CHANCE
TO THOSE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR HOPE, IN THIS CONFUSING WORLD,
NOBODY SHOULD PREACH, EXPECTING NOTHING IN RETURN,BECAUSE ONLY SALVATION CAN BE GIVING BY HIM,WHO RESIDES IN LIGHT UN- ACCESSIBLE TO ANY OR CAN BE SEEN BUT, HAS BEEN REAVELED BY THE
SAVIOUR WHO IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF THE FATHER,AND SINCE GOD LOVES THE SON SO MUCH, AS HIS OWN SELF HE FORGIVES US. I KNOW
THEIR ARE MANY WAYS BUT IN THIS CASE FOR GOD THE CHRIST IS THAT WAY,NO OTHER. IN CASE. [email protected]

In response to Good Wolf:

Well that's what you label them. The intellectual will label the doors through perception to truth.... which will contrast your spiritual realms as delusions of conviction.

Delusions of conviction for me are impossible. You wanna know why??? Because what I've experienced is more real, seen by others, experienced by others who went seeking, and everything correlates the way it does in science.

So just like a scientists experiment has to be corroborated by others before it is fact, same goes for everything I claim and have experienced, which is solidified by thousands if not hundreds of thousands of others.

Not only that, what I experience is more real than any delusion, emotion, thought, mood, feeling, physical sense, logical, rational and so on. Yeah all those things I just mentioned are experiences, but the one of God is beyond all those, more real, deeper, profound, that it makes everything else seem like a waste of time.

But I object, because I also consider myself an intellectual Spiritual scientist of the soul, and as of result have labeled all doors to the perception of truth. But you want know what the ultimate conclusion is???

All labels are traps. Stick to one and you can get stuck in possibly for the rest of your life. God is beyond all labels, all thoughts, all notions, words, ideas. None of these are God, they simply point to way for the occasional window shopper to walk in the store and see for themselves.

You are currently operating on logic and rational reason. But when you experience the Spiritual realities of Enlightenment that's given by Jesus, you operate beyond those limited constructs and in you will be born higher faculties able to perceive all things in God and God in all things.

But until then, if you wish to remain in intellectual/logical/reason/rational thinking and approaches, its all running in circles. There is modes beyond this if you wish to approach them.

By the way, besides zeitgeist, which Ive seen a few times myself, the beginning or first part of the movie is actually flawed in dozens and dozens of facts. Second, the 3rd part of the zeitgeist film where they talk about the comming 1 world Gov and microchips, is predicted in the Bible. So on 1 end they are attacking Christianity and on the other end they are supporting it, not even realizing it.

Yes I agree organized religion is a prison to the seekers of wisdom. But true Mystical directly experienced Christianity will free you from your ego, from the society, from nationalism, and from this world.

You just have to read between the lines and seek with all your heart/desire to see if this is real ...then you will see, and more importantly know for yourself.

Everything else besides direct experience is speculation.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


yeah but your name resembles an author. Any plans to write???

Originally posted by dominicus
So just like a scientists experiment has to be corroborated by others before it is fact, same goes for everything I claim and have experienced, which is solidified by thousands if not hundreds of thousands of others.

Not only that, what I experience is more real than any delusion, emotion, thought, mood, feeling, physical sense, logical, rational and so on. Yeah all those things I just mentioned are experiences, but the one of God is beyond all those, more real, deeper, profound, that it makes everything else seem like a waste of time.

Unfortunately any creator or God you claim to know, is supernatural, meaning it is not apart of perceptible reality. Therefore it is undetectable by any testable means, and can only be assumed to exist for subjective emotional reasons, or as a result of cultural indoctrination, rather than because of any measurable evidence or logical rationale. In other words, there’s no way to say if its really there. Worst of all, there’s also no way to distinguish anyone’s gods or ghosts from the imaginary beings some primitive folks just made up either. This doesn’t mean no god exists. But it does mean that science can’t say anything about them. Because even if gods are real, they still don't appear to be, and apparently don't want to –since all the holy books demand they be believed on faith alone.

You are currently operating on logic and rational reason. But when you experience the Spiritual realities of Enlightenment that's given by Jesus, you operate beyond those limited constructs and in you will be born higher faculties able to perceive all things in God and God in all things.

Because we live the physical realm, logic and rationale are the only things that serve, and anything outside of that realm is 'un-proses-able' by meager human minds.

This is where 'God' put us and gave us logic to perceive that reality.

By the way, besides zeitgeist, which Ive seen a few times myself, the beginning or first part of the movie is actually flawed in dozens and dozens of facts. Second, the 3rd part of the zeitgeist film where they talk about the comming 1 world Gov and microchips, is predicted in the Bible. So on 1 end they are attacking Christianity and on the other end they are supporting it, not even realizing it.

I know, I've researched it for myself. While that is a discussion for another thread, there is no real usable evidence that Jesus ever existed. And the bibles predictions of NWO are dubious because John seemed to be talking about the tyrant of the time. Taken out of context, people think it applies to day, visit the link in the OP

Everything else besides direct experience is speculation.

Even that is speculation. If I witness a flock of raptors run through my backyard, if I can't find evidence to corroborate the event, even I must admit that I may not have seen it at all. Great claims require great evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[edit on 9/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

[edit on 9/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf

Unfortunately any creator or God you claim to know, is supernatural, meaning it is not apart of perceptible reality.

The God that I claim to know is supernatural and is a part of perceptible reality, its just that most people haven't tuned into the proper channel to perceive this. Just like all the invisible things that exist that can't be seen unless ultra-violet light is used. Just like when an old prophet/psychic predicted that one day there will be horse-less carriages (i.e. cars) and was almost thrown in jail as a heretical sorcerer for suggesting such things ...and now here we are. Religion vs. truth and what I'm describing here is truth, seen between the lines of religion.

I'll tell you how God can be detected by testable means ....by doing exactly what I suggested, seeking with all your heart, desire, meditation, spiritual exercises, over-coming the ego, humbleness, and so on. A combination of these practiced sincerely and genuinely by anyone will lead one into experiencing the divine directly, which in turn makes one a Spiritual scientist testing these realities and experiences and then finding out for ones self that they are real, do exist, and line up exactly with what others have said or written about these things.

To say that, and I quote, God can only be assumed to "exist for subjective emotional reasons, or as a result of cultural indoctrination, rather than because of any measurable evidence or logical rationale."

Well, I went through exactly what you did and dropped out of churches, challenged preachers/pastors/theologians and got allot of them stuck and I saw through all the B.S. indoctrination and emotional subjectiveness based on live music, right words, and so forth. After going past all these things I found God ...and this is not emotional or subjective ....because people around me who knew me my whole life saw a 360 degree change in my personality and character ....so obviously something happened based on an experience that was objectively seen as changes in me.

Just like in science each finding is subjective and processes subjectively by other scientists who all come together and agree on the findings. Such is also the truth for spiritual scientists like myself who know God is 100% real and would be willing to bet everything one can possibly stake on the table that God exists and is truth.

But it does mean that science can’t say anything about them.

Of course not, scientists aren't looking for or studying God ....they would be scoffed at by the rest of the scientific community, research grants lost, and there goes the reputation. With such a biased community, well you know the rest. Anyway, science studies material and repeatable experiments, of which God is immaterial and unrepeatable. So if there arent instruments in existence yet to tune into a God frequency, then of course they wont find him.

Because even if gods are real, they still don't appear to be, and apparently don't want to –since all the holy books demand they be believed on faith alone.

Again don't appear to be because you are not properly tuned into the signal in which this reality exists and at the same time is all around us and in us.

Now faith is for babies on the spiritual path. Those that are first learning the ropes and practices. Its more of a faith in yourself, that if you undergo this journey to seek out God, then you will know God directly eventually. Once you experience and know then faith goes out the window because then you live by knowing instead of having blind faith. This is the proper way to look at it, just like when Neo had faith in himself that taking the red pill is the right choice and it was, even though the truth was scary to him, just like you undergoing ego death is eventually a scary thing at first ...then just like Neo you learn to operate in this new way of being called Spiritual Enlightenment.

And as far as all these mythical God's ....dont worry about that. Your Ego is just trying to grasp any little possible contradiction that it can intellectually wrestle with so as to avoid its inevitable ego death. There are many false Gods and 1 true God that you can experience and know for sure.

Because we live the physical realm, logic and rationale are the only things that serve, and anything outside of that realm is 'un-proses-able' by meager human minds. This is where 'God' put us and gave us logic to perceive that reality.

Just like the greatest minds, genuses, & philosophers of the history of this planet have all one day realized that you use logic and rationale to realize just how limited logic & rationale really are. Then many of them eventually get further to transcendence but could never communicate it because this has to be experienced to be understood and no other way.

I claim this transcendence which is outside of your "realm and un-process-able world" you speak of. Many operate with this faculty, but it is only by direct experience .....words themselves are simply jailed by each ones perspective of what each word has and its meaning.

Even that is speculation. If I witness a flock of raptors run through my backyard, if I can't find evidence to corroborate the event, even I must admit that I may not have seen it at all. Great claims require great evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Again, the direct experiences I have are corroborated to me by books from around the world by others who have experienced exactly the same thing, I have met and continue to meet others who also experienced the same things and this is true around the world

My claim is extraordinary and supported around the world by thousands if not hundreds of thousands. If you can get those kinds of numbers for raptors running through yards, then I will start to pay attention to this experience and even watch my yard daily to see if it happens here.

But we (enlightened ones) are a minority and the world operates on selfish, materialistic, ego modes. Its hard to get through to people with what I speak of and they don't want to hear it because of comfort zones and personal habits, until a black swan comes along and the person is against the fence, near death, lost a loved one, or something in their proverbial world outlook crumbles. Then there is a crack in the door.

Arguing about religion on the internet aye....probably the biggest waste of time in the universe.

I'll say it again.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Like I said before, logic is to me, what faith is to you. And there is no reason that God can't appeal to that, so then I must draw 4 conclusions:
1) God is going to show himself when the time is right (I'm skeptical but patient).
2) God doesn't care about us mere mortals.
3) God's to shy(insert preferred word here ie.fickle/annoying/spite-filled) to stop hiding in a place and way unreachable to science.
4) God doesn't exist Period

reply to post by Good Wolf

 

those seem like rather imprudent conclusions GWolf.

1) God is going to show himself when the time is right (I'm skeptical but patient).

why would this be so?

2) God doesn't care about us mere mortals.

again . . what inferences have lead you to this conclusion?

3) God's to shy(insert preferred word here ie.fickle/annoying/spite-filled) to stop hiding in a place and way unreachable to science.

there's a lot of things unreachable to science. Even the things that can be "reached" are normally completely misunderstood by science. It's faulty logic to assume that if science cannot find something, it is hiding.

Science is a rather poor observer, with motives; Science is a shoddy observer because it is driven by humans with imperfect senses and brains; it's motives are tainted because sciences' greatest quest is for government funding.

4) God doesn't exist Period

unless you possess all the knowledge in the universe. I fail to see how you could ascertain this.

[edit on 9/12/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by JPhish


God contradicts himself several times. God states that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and therefor will never contradict himself.

2 conclusions:
1) God is a lier
2) God does not exist
3) God does not exist as written in the Bible

If #1 is true, then how can we take any of his words as truth?
If #3 is true, then what makes one person's perception of God more true than someone else's?

#2 is the most likely scenario.

Also, there are serious problems with putting trust in an omnipotent being. For all you know, he could be evil, and just be pretending to be good.
For all you know, he could be lying to you.
For all you know, he could be the Devil, and the Devil could be the Creator.

Perhaps he just screwed around with the Bible, and you're really worshiping the Devil.

Do I believe any of that? No. But see what happens when you throw logic out the window?

This is why it is the responsibility of those with knowledge to look after those without. It is not our responsibility to find an invisible deity, it is his responsibility to make himself known to everyone.

Notice:

I've asked this thread to be closed. It's digressing into another discussion it was never meant to be about and all the arguing is going in circles. I've gotten all that I'm going to get out of this thread.

Any one who has any thing that feel should be said, then do so now.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by JPhish

 

God contradicts himself several times. God states that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and therefor will never contradict himself.

When has G*d “contradicted himself?” wouldn’t G*d have to exist to do that??? When the hell did G*d say this? I must have missed this, and subsequently everyone who didn’t has amnesia except for you?

2 conclusions:
1) God is a lier
2) God does not exist
3) God does not exist as written in the Bible

Are you sure that’s not three?

If #1 is true, then how can we take any of his words as truth?

When the heck did G*d say anything to any of us??? I’m still at a loss.

If #3 is true, then what makes one person's perception of God more true than someone else's?

That’s assuming that anyone’s perception can even touch the truth.

#2 is the most likely scenario.

Based on what probability? Would you say that it’s likely that a coin will land on heads? Would you say it’s unlikely that a dice will land on 1? Define your terms.

Also, there are serious problems with putting trust in an omnipotent being.
For all you know, he could be evil, and just be pretending to be good.
For all you know, he could be lying to you.
For all you know, he could be the Devil, and the Devil could be the Creator.

What do you think is evil exactly? What do you think is good?

If an all powerful being lies to you and wants to conceal that it is lying to you. It doesn’t matter anyway.

Logic it seems, is futile in respect to the devil/creator dilemma.

Perhaps he just screwed around with the Bible, and you're really worshiping the Devil.

Perhaps "who?" screwed around with the bible? Constantine?

Do I believe any of that? No. But see what happens when you throw logic out the window?

Yeah, you cease to make sense.

This is why it is the responsibility of those with knowledge to look after those without. It is not our responsibility to find an invisible deity, it is his responsibility to make himself known to everyone.

If an invisible DIETY wanted to be known. It would just make it self visible.
Why is it this deity’s responsibility to make it self known to everyone exactly? Sounds like you’re suffering from a mild case of hubris.

[edit on 9/12/2008 by JPhish]

If you guys want to close this thread, thats fine with me. It seems every-time I point to way for people to go and experience God for themselves, the answers always the same:

"Oh, I'll just stay right here in this little intellectual box of logic and rationale I created for myself. Its impossible for there to be anything else than this box. See you later"

You want it that way? Thats fine with me, because the majority has it that way and everything will still play itself out the way its supposed to eventually you yourselves will also see, i.e. after physical if it comes down to it.

Bootom line*** I've been where you are now, and where I am now is a billion times better than where I used to be. Im saying tho, Im not any better than any of you, just a better, fuller, more infinite/eternal perspective, i.e. tuned into the right channel.

Saying all that, I would honestly sacrifice my own life for you to be able to experience what I have and do continue to experience, which is God.
Why would I do that???

Because I have already gotten to experience these realities, so I have no fear of death and have only peace and happiness knowing 100% for sure that God is real. Because of that and no ego, it would be the most natural thing to sacrifice myself for the benefit of anyone of you to know what I know.

Reverse this though on yourselves, and I bet none of you would be willing to sacrifice your own lives for someone to know what you know.

Thats where the truth is. How far are you willing to go to find it. Get out of the box.

Hello, Good Wolf.

The truth as close as I can tell it is this: God is unknowable because god must be unknowable. God, whether we care to admit it or not, is that thing that drives us, even if only to argue (i.e. prove/disprove) his/hers/its/their (non)existence. It's the question, forever and ever amen. Its why we have science and art and culture. And its why we have evil and good. It's what makes us human.