New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

Has any of you ever thought that maybe God was trying to show a way out of all that has come on us now ?

Adultry -a moral sin that leads to corruption of the heart soul and mind and body .
Homosexual behaviour -Is a moral and physical sin that leads to desecration of the body (sin against your own body)also leads to the death of the body quickly due to diseases it causes....not to mention all the emotional turmoil that lifestyle causes .........
Killing ----is a moral sin leading to the murder and mayhem we have now even within the general population .It also leads to death and destruction and hate .
PS and all of the above leads to total spiritual death in people ..then they are just walking dead .

If God would have allowed (by not setting some guidelines for them to follow) ..and allowed everyone to just do as they wanted to do they would have all been wicked horrible and running amok deep into every imagination of the heart (Like it was just prior to the flood) Obviously if the OT people would have went by the laws in leviticus maybe we wouldnt be in this mess we are in today .......................

I really dont know ..
(this is the non religious side of me thinking )
I am really glad I didnt live here in those times .
But it also makes me see that God means business and he aint no one who can get pushed around or pushed to his limits ...I better watch my step so he get angry with me ........... and I better just watch my step down here then ...I mean my Daddy has a big belt .lol ......I want that God of the OT to be my friend more than I would want him as my enemy.
But I respect him because unlike us ...he holds off his anger ...for a very very very very long time ..AND I AM THANKFUL for that ......He knows whats best for us better than we know ..he created me ..so he knows what it will take for me to straighten up ......


[edit on 6-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


I don't think they understand the contrast between being under the law and being under grace. Or that we were promised to be returned to grace and that the law was only temporary. They see it as a contradiction and not as a fulfillment because they are unaware of the Old Testament prophecies. Just my two cents. I gave up trying to explain the Old Testament fulfillment and the New Testament covenant and how it's a temporary foreshadowing and not a permanent way.

It would be like those living in the age of the Messianic Kingdom saying, 'God isn't the same yesterday, today, and forever because we were once living under the curse but now things are restored! Things have changed therefore God has changed!' They forget things were promised to change. It has been explained possibly one hundred times in my time here (not an exaggeration) but it still pops up in a thread at least once a week so I gave up. lol

[edit on 9/6/2008 by AshleyD]

I see that Ashley
It is getting into the meat of the word isnt it.
When they cant even understand the milk they sure wont understand all that.
Its like trying to show a kindergardner how to do algebra .When he hasnt even learned his times tables yet .
(not meaning anything ugly here about you guys )


It would be like them showing me algebra ,before I even get through general math (I didnt get passed that before I quit). LOL

There is something I don`t understand. That is why people feel that they need to infringe on others free will to find God in their own way. Why is this? I believe it is ok to give ones opinion about something like this, but, leave it at that, state our cases, and let them decide without being pushed into something they may not agree with. People shouldn`t mess with others spiritual growth, no matter what. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system, why can`t these guys be? Some may find God in this lifetime, or, they may not. It`s not up to us to find God for them, they have to do the searching themselves.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by FiatLux]

In a way I agree with you

But this post had on it EX CHRISTIAN in it which said really loud to others that HEY IM NOT GONNA BE A CHRISTIAN ANY MORE .....and I really thought it was sort if his way of saying ...hey talk me out of it if you can .
If a family member of mine is walking out the door telling me see ya ..
I would try and talk him out of it first wouldnt you ?Just in case I never see him again I would like to say hey I tried ..

I believe if he really was walking away and dead set on it he would have left the EX CHRISTIAN part out.
Especially if he didnt want any Christians input .

It could also be his way of saying that he is done with it. Only he can say, not us.

reply to post by AshleyD


I understand what you say about the law and living in grace. I was a Christian too, and had this forced down my throat as anyone else had. The problem is that why would God live in different moral standards?

The Old Testament: If anyone disagrees with God or breaks any of his laws, they are to be put to death without questions.

The New Testament: Love your enemy as your brother. Turn the cheek.

This is not the same God. It's just not.

Also, The New Testament CLAIMS that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws. There's just no getting around it.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by TruthParadox]

Truth one thing that I have noticed in the bible is that God did repent of things he did a few times in the OT .

Check it out he said it more than a few times ....
www.blueletterbible.org...

He seems almost human doesnt he ?
He did make us in his image so if we are in his image he has to think alot like we do ..(maybe deeper and higher than us ) but still similar in thinking and actions like we are ..Would you agree ?
We get mad ..we do things we thought would be good for our kids and it turns out it didnt work as good as we thought it would ..Maybe even turned out badly when our intention was good ...

Ashley I am not real familar with alot of the OT books like Deut and Lev.
But if I am not mistaken wasnt it the Priests and Moses who gave out all those laws ? I thought God only sent the 10 commandments out with Moses .

I think men can get carried away with laws and they add more and more ......I mean look at all the laws we have in our times .Some of them so stupid and petty that it doesnt even make sense to have them ..Heck sometimes I wonder what laws I could be breaking just sitting in my house doing nothing lol ....

I said ex-christian because I wanted other ex-christians to post. Also knowing that christians would post, I intended to challenge myself with argument for the church and God and all that, be on the receiving for once.

But no one has offered up anything to make me believe a God actually exists for sure, let alone take up my faith again.

So I evoked to groups of people, christians and non who took the roll of the debating mind who also provided better and more well informed arguments than I could have contemplated before this thread.


As I said I havn't seen any worthwhile arguments for 'the faith', but I was supprised at how much fear mongering surfaced

Sorry Wolf

I thought you wanted opinions of Christians not just Ex ones .
I am still one so that leaves me out .
I will leave it be then.

The way I see it, if God has a plan for you, which invloves you sinning and going to Hell, then you've been unfairly punished. Such a perfect God that is so unfair can't exist in my mind.

Although this isn't the only reason why I'm an atheist, it is one of the few that make me so frustrated when I wonder why people can believe in God.

About your fear of there not being an afterlife, think of it this way: what would you do for eternity? I get a very detestable feeling if I think that I will be spending FOREVER in servitude to an almighty being. It sounds so boring to me. As for my beliefs, the thought of being nothing is actually very to comforting to me, actually.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Except a God that claims to be omnipotent, all knowing, never changing, would not make the same mistakes that humans make. A God like that would be perfect. We would live in a perfect world if a God like that existed. We would have no doubt in our minds who made us if a God like that existed. We wouldn't have to pay taxes if a God like that existed . This is not a perfect world, therefor there can not be a perfect God. God is infinite, which means that he encompasses the world. God can not be infinite AND perfect as our world is far from perfect. Many Christians would consider this a weak argument, but if you think about it, it's true. There would be no suffering of any kind if there was a perfect omnipotent God. Christians say it's because of the Devil, but it doesn't matter because there would be no Devil if there was a perfect omnipotent God. A perfect omnipotent God would not have created a being which he knew would later betray him a thrust the world into turmoil.
Just think about it logically. It seems to me that many Christians spend more time making excuses for how things could have been possible than they do just thinking about things logically.

God is a creator (Inventor) he would be always creating and ever perfecting what he creates .
Isnt that what creative people do ?
Isnt that what inventors do ?

reply to post by Simplynoone


That doesnt relate to what truth paradox said.

And I don't mind you posting with theist opinions at all, so long as they aren't babble like Icarus Rising's posts.

Well I for one don't believe in a one true God that we know of as now. But I do believe in one, but all religions right now are 'broken'. Every single book was supposedly written by man, and man constantly makes mistakes. So what would not make man to write a little something that he wanted? But believe in what you want. I personally believe in an afterlife, and a soul.

Originally posted by TruthParadox
The problem is that why would God live in different moral standards?

Not moral- legal.

This is not the same God. It's just not.

Yes it is. Same God, different ages, different covenants. All promised in advance so there should be no surprise.

Also, The New Testament CLAIMS that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws. There's just no getting around it.

Like I said, fulfilled- not abolished.

Hope that helps. I'm being brief on purpose. Take care.

I'm sick of people pointing to fulfilled profiecies to claim truth, yet they convientently over look unfulfilled ones.

At the end of the day there are plenty of religions and plenty of books like the bible that are claimed to be only inspired true word of God and they all claim the others to be wrong. Logic dictates that they are all probably wrong, at least for the most part. The fact that they were written by the hands of men with thier spiritual political metaphysical and social rules written in, so they contrast making a book with lots of differing points that sometime go against them selves producing something that people have to pick what parts they adopt, you cannot follow all the imperatives in the bible without going against another part. And it shouldn't be surprising because they are all written by men in the distant past.

Ultimately taking the bible as historically accurate and factual is to degrade the usefulness of the book because you start putting mans' word in Gods mouth and then everything goes to hell (no pun intended).

To treat it as divine and holy, like any other book, would equate to bible worship and idolatry which, on the assumption that God exists, would go against his very wishes.

For instance the catholic church and the orthodox church both have denounced creationism in favour of evolution. To treat genesis as factual is ludicrous on every single level. So why not treat the rest of the bible with reason aswell?

[edit on 9/7/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by TruthParadox
The problem is that why would God live in different moral standards?

Not moral- legal.

Whatever you want to call it, an all knowing, never changing, omnipotent God would not change the law, as the law would have been perfect to begin with. The law was not perfect. It was insane. It's what we see from radical Muslims. Terrorists. Your God once supported terrorist actions. You're pretty much saying that back then, it was ok to act like a terrorist because Jesus had not come yet. If someone does not believe in God, kill them. If someone is gay, kill them. If someone breaks the laws, even though they have no idea of the laws because they are not familiar with the faith, kill them. Oh, and it was ok to sell your daughter as a sex slave. Seriously? I'm sorry, but nothing God could have done after that point could redem him from his own insane laws.

The Bible reaks of 'man-made'

reply to post by TruthParadox


Firstly, don't forget about the following:

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) [Don’t learn about other religions or research them—that means the internet is OUT. No wonder they had so many book burnings. Hell, what am I talking about—when I was a kid my church had record burnings. Lot’s of rock albums burned . . . that would be classic rock today].

And secoundly I wouldn't call them acts of terrorism:

Ter·ror·ism/ˈtɛrəˌrɪzəm/
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

These people just wanted raw unadulterated slaughter of people who are different.

God of the OT is the most bigoted being in recorded history.

Just my opinion here guys. I find that the biggest contradiction in the bible is, that it says our God is a loving God, yet it turns around and states that God will send you to hell for your sins. Where did the loving go when God sends you to hell? My opinion of this is, if there is a loving God, then God would still love you even if you sined. Just like the things you guys posted, this is why I have a problem believeing many of the things that are in the bible. Yes, much of it may be true, but as far as the rest goes, ummm, I don`t think so. That is why I will not put all of my faith in a book alone. Some people may want to, and that is fine, but, don`t tell me I have to believe and follow everything the book says.