New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

Originally posted by JPhish
When has G*d “contradicted himself?” wouldn’t G*d have to exist to do that??? When the hell did G*d say this? I must have missed this, and subsequently everyone who didn’t has amnesia except for you?

From this alone, I can tell that you have not kept up with this thread, as I have repeated myself over and over and over again. I will name the contradictions and you will ignore them as others have. Or worse yet, you will make an excuse which I will prove to be even worse than the first choice. I will name just a few contradictions. GoodWolf, I know this isn't where you wanted the thread to go, and I know I've stated this many times before, but some people don't like checking the history, so this will be the last time I make my point in this thread.

Contradictions:
1) Contradiction of a perfect omnipotent God creating a flawed world.
2) Contradiction of an omnipotent God being tricked by his creation (Satan) as if he didn't see it coming.
3) Contradiction of an infinite being creating something. If he was infinite, then he would contradict himself in creating something.
4) Contradiction of the God of the Old Testament being completely different than the God of the New Testament.
5) Hundreds, if not thousands, of contradictions in the Bible which can not be explained.
6) Contradiction of a creator judging his creation for how he himself made his creation.
7) Contradiction of the Bible and scientific evidence. The Earth is not 6,000 years old, it is millions of years old, and there is proof of this.
8) Contradiction of a perfect omnipotent God having a struggle with one of his creations (Satan).
9) Contradiction of a perfect omnipotent God needing our love.
10) Contradiction of a perfect God to create us to use logic and then expect us to take him on faith.
11) Contradiction of a perfect omnipotent God showing surprise and forgetting things as seen in the Old Testament.
12) Contradiction of a loving God sending us to Hell.

This is the tip of the iceberg. I could go on all day but I won't because it doesn't serve any real purpose. You arn't going to look at anything I say in the perspective of seeking truth, but rather in the perspective of trying to prove me wrong and defend your belief which has no evidence.

Originally posted by JPhish
When the heck did G*d say anything to any of us??? I’m still at a loss.

If the Bible is the word of God or if the Bible is an accurate description of God, then the contradictions stand. If God is not the God of the Bible, then one might be able to defend these things.

Originally posted by JPhish
Based on what probability? Would you say that it’s likely that a coin will land on heads? Would you say it’s unlikely that a dice will land on 1? Define your terms.

A deity is more complicated than a coin. First of all, why not any other of the 3000 gods? We start off with 1/3000 chance. We look at science, and the contradictions I've named above, and the God as depicted in the Bible falls drasticly. I can't give you an exact number, but the liklihood that God exists is the same probability as Zeus, as we have no evidence to state otherwise.

Originally posted by JPhish
What do you think is evil exactly? What do you think is good?

If an all powerful being lies to you and wants to conceal that it is lying to you. It doesn’t matter anyway.

Logic it seems, is futile in respect to the devil/creator dilemma.

Why? How do you know that you arn't worshiping the Devil? If you abandon logic of the physical and take into account all the possibilities of the spiritual, for all we know, the Devil locked God up in a cage and is tricking us into worshiping him. I don't believe God or the Devil exist. I am simply stating that when you take logic out of the physical and try to put it into something you can't know anything about, anything is possible. A perfect omnipotent God would not ask us to do this for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by JPhish
Yeah, you cease to make sense.

I make perfect sense as seen by the fact that you can't respond in a logical manner to disprove what I say.

Originally posted by JPhish
If an invisible DIETY wanted to be known. It would just make it self visible.
Why is it this deity’s responsibility to make it self known to everyone exactly? Sounds like you’re suffering from a mild case of hubris.

It's his responsibility, because otherwise we get sent to Hell for using logic instead of blind faith. If I lock a kid up in a room with a shotgun, I can say that he has free will, so it's his choice if he blows his brains out. Likewise, if God puts us on this planet with no physical evidence of him, and then sends us to Hell for not believing in him, then he is playing odds for the purpose of playing odds. We have free will, just like that kid does, but it doesn't matter because some people obviously do not have the information to make what you would consider to be the correct choice.
How hard would it be to remove the shotgun from that room? How hard would it be for an all powerful God to give us some kind of evidence of his existence?

Originally posted by dominicus
It seems every-time I point to way for people to go and experience God for themselves, the answers always the same:

"Oh, I'll just stay right here in this little intellectual box of logic and rationale I created for myself. Its impossible for there to be anything else than this box. See you later"

I have already tried to experience God. For 18 years I did this. I know that the warm fuzzy feelings I experienced were psychological. Try imagining that someone is watching you. Do this for long enough and you will be able to feel them. I have prayed many times for God to show himself in any way, shape, or form to me. He has not.
So either:
1) He doesn't care.
2) He is not omnipotent and is not capable of showing himself in such a way.
3) He doesn't exist.

Originally posted by dominicus
Reverse this though on yourselves, and I bet none of you would be willing to sacrifice your own lives for someone to know what you know.

Because I believe that we die and our brain rots along with our conscious mind.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Do you believe you have a soul? I`m saying an energy or spirit inside of you?

reply to post by TruthParadox

I have already tried to experience God. For 18 years I did this. I know that the warm fuzzy feelings I experienced were psychological. Try imagining that someone is watching you. Do this for long enough and you will be able to feel them. I have prayed many times for God to show himself in any way, shape, or form to me. He has not. So either: 1) He doesn't care. 2) He is not omnipotent and is not capable of showing himself in such a way. 3) He doesn't exist.

How can you explain God for the last 18 years when words are insufficient to explain God??? Thats what I would honestly like to know. It is a direct experience, not psychological but way beyond and completely reconstructing and circumventing psychology.

God has shown himself to you, but you just havent bothered to realize this. God in all things and all things in God at the same time. Like an omni-present fog and yet beyond your notions of either 1, 2, or 3. Your just not tuning in the right channel.

I can go to a church or a concert and have warm fuzzy feelings from both. Same goes when you give someone a gift, help an old lady up after she fell, experience a beautiful day. Experiencing God isnt some warm fuzzy psychological notion cause then you are limiting the unlimited.

So
1) He does care since he is in all things and experiencing every single thing that everyone else is experiencing and is right there with that person.
2) Is omnipotent because me and thousands upon perhaps hundreds of thousands other potentials experience and see God in all things and all things in God, i.e. Omnipresent/potent.
3)He completely exists, again you just havent tuned in.

Because I believe that we die and our brain rots along with our conscious mind.

Exactly!!! You just said it, because you "believe" this is so, whereas I "Know" 100% that God is so. Thats why somebody who knows 100% for sure is more prone to sacrifice ones own life for the benefit of another versus somebody who simply believes.

Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day. You are simply believing a certain way, whereas I know 100% because I have seen and experienced and continue do to so. Speculation versus true knowledge.

You have faith in your belief system, whereas I am beyond any belief systems and experience this awsome peace, Love and being in this knowing directly which is a presence and knowing at all times 24/7. There is no belieif in my life ....only a knowing.

Perhaps you also only window shopped for a short time and never actually entered the store.

Let me ask you this. If you asked for a sign and were driving to work one morning and a semi-truck pulled up next to you and said, "Love" or "Faith" or somebody on the street passed you a flyer about Christ .....you wouldnt take those as signs???

Ultimately the sign is all around you. Like the awsome design in the complexities of existence and creation. Even if evolution is 100% true then look how incredible of a design evolution itself is. For all of this to happen and be here randomly is a complete statistical and mathematical joke.

The odds are such that there would be the same chance for a tornado to pass through a junkyard and randomly assemble a fully operational 747 Jet airplane on its way through. Even not being tuned into seeing God everywhere, its still so simple to come to this conclusion of a designer.

Perhaps instead of asking for signs and not getting them, you should go and search within yourself as in meditation. What were you expecting, a cloud to come out of the sky and envelope you???? What God did by not giving you a sign the way you wanted is to make you realize that God isnit a sign, that you have to go beyond all these limited notions and ideas you are putting on God in order to find him.

[edit on 13-9-2008 by dominicus]

MOD EDIT: to replace tags, inserted "quote" tags

[edit on 13-9-2008 by DontTreadOnMe]

There's a term for this train of thought.

Psychobabble

Originally posted by dominicus
God has shown himself to you, but you just havent bothered to realize this. God in all things and all things in God at the same time. Like an omni-present fog and yet beyond your notions of either 1, 2, or 3. Your just not tuning in the right channel.

Sigh...
Everytime I say that I felt emotions about God and felt a 'knowing' of God but did not experience anything besides an emotion, people always asume that I didn't try or that I was fickle. Let me tell you, I did try. I was looking for God in anything. I gave him every chance. I prayed with no response.
All I can tell you without doubt is that I did 100% give him every single chance to show himself to me and I did 100% try to believe, etc.

Originally posted by dominicus

Because I believe that we die and our brain rots along with our conscious mind.

Exactly!!! You just said it, because you "believe" this is so, whereas I "Know" 100% that God is so. Thats why somebody who knows 100% for sure is more prone to sacrifice ones own life for the benefit of another versus somebody who simply believes.

Mmm... Kindof like those muslims that sacrificed their lives to kill 3000 others on 9/11? People THINK they know. These muslims THOUGHT they know, just as you do. I said 'believe' because I can't 100% prove it.

Originally posted by dominicus
You have faith in your belief system, whereas I am beyond any belief systems and experience this awsome peace, Love and being in this knowing directly which is a presence and knowing at all times 24/7. There is no belieif in my life ....only a knowing.

Do you have any experiences which 100% could not have been anything OTHER than God? If so, I'd like to hear it. I already said, I experienced this same peace, love, and knowing feeling. Christianity is not the only religion where one experiences these feelings. You think that because you think you know, you do. But you don't realize that a feeling of 'knowing' is just that. A feeling. When people take shrooms they have a 'knowing' of the Universe, when really they are just fooling themselves into believing that they know.

Originally posted by dominicus
Let me ask you this. If you asked for a sign and were driving to work one morning and a semi-truck pulled up next to you and said, "Love" or "Faith" or somebody on the street passed you a flyer about Christ .....you wouldnt take those as signs???

I asked God for any type of sign and nothing like this happened. At the time, I would have accepted such a sign.

Originally posted by dominicus
Ultimately the sign is all around you. Like the awsome design in the complexities of existence and creation. Even if evolution is 100% true then look how incredible of a design evolution itself is. For all of this to happen and be here randomly is a complete statistical and mathematical joke.

That is the human perspective. That everything 'fits' so perfectly and therefor had to have a creator. The reason everything fits is because things change to fit their environment. The environment was not made for us, we were made for it. Thus giving an illusion of everything having a perfect fit.

Originally posted by dominicus
The odds are such that there would be the same chance for a tornado to pass through a junkyard and randomly assemble a fully operational 747 Jet airplane on its way through. Even not being tuned into seeing God everywhere, its still so simple to come to this conclusion of a designer.

Life was not formed randomly or by means of one short term extraodinary event. It was not random as everything has a cause and a reaction. It was a long slow process. We already know that life forms adapt. What makes you think things were different millions of years ago? Adaptation over a long period of time = evolution. When I exercise, my body adapts and I become strong. When I'm outside for a long period of time, my skin adapts and I get a tan.

Originally posted by dominicus
Perhaps instead of asking for signs and not getting them, you should go and search within yourself as in meditation. What were you expecting, a cloud to come out of the sky and envelope you???? What God did by not giving you a sign the way you wanted is to make you realize that God isnit a sign, that you have to go beyond all these limited notions and ideas you are putting on God in order to find him.

I have meditated on it. It was not a rash decision. I wasn't 'expecting' anything except some kind of reassurance. Some kind of answers for the questions I had. Questions that obviously can not be answered by humans or by an omnipotent God. They can't be answered because there is no answer.

Originally posted by FiatLux
reply to post by TruthParadox

 

Do you believe you have a soul? I`m saying an energy or spirit inside of you?

I believe that we have an energy, though I'm not sure of much else besides that. The energy I'm referring to has been talked about by scientists. It's an energy that's found in all life forms. However, I do not jump to conclusions that because this energy exists, some deity must have created it.

reply to post by TruthParadox



I understand your point. What I found in my own search was, this energy had to have come from something or someplace if it is in everything. In my meditations that was one of the questions I asked. The answer I got was given in two parts on to seperate days. The first thing that I got was, these energies are of one energy, from one source, they are seperate, yet they are not seperate. All things have an awareness, being from the plants you see to all humans. All things are at different levels of awareness, or growth as you may say. On the second day it said, all energies were formed at the start of all existance, and all existance came from one thought, that thought came from the one, the one source.

Now it went into greater detail, but that was the main point it was saying, it/we came from the one source. That one, we can call it anything. I call it our creator, others God and so on.

reply to post by TruthParadox


to truthparadox,
Look man, all im saying is this, I've done shrooms, acid, have had emotions good and bad, feelings of all sorts, thoughts, experiences and all of the above.

But the one experience that comes from realizing your soul in ur body, that your body is just a shell and your soul goes on forever, and God realization ....these things I speak of are beyond anything else I just mentioned. Shrooms/acid is like kindergarten compared to what Im describing.

I never said there were no other ways to this experience, Im simply implying the Christian way because this is the way I came to these experiences. Previously I was atheist, then agnostic, then part time to full time buddhist, then Christian.

And Im not trying to assume/presume anything about your shot with God. All I'm saying is that what we are speaking of here is not something you try out for a couple of months or so.

Its like becoming a master engineer or a pilot, or master craftsman, sculptor, etc. It takes a long time to become a master at something and you keep growing in it for the rest of your life. The same thing goes for God.

How do you know you weren't tested??? Like, lets see if he sticks around even if I dont give him any signs. Not to say that God did this because that's not really anything that really happens. Just goes back to not being tuned into the right channel to see the reality of God all around you.

Mmm... Kindof like those muslims that sacrificed their lives to kill 3000 others on 9/11? People THINK they know. These muslims THOUGHT they know, just as you do. I said 'believe' because I can't 100% prove it.

That there is a big difference. I never said anything about sacrificing my own life to kill others, to spread any ideologies by force or by death. The way I put it forth was that I would give up my own life to push you out of the way of a bus, train, grenade, drunk driver ....because I already have been granted the pinnacle experience of the Divine while here. You havent. If I take your fate and pass on, you would still have time to consider what I say and even possibly come to a realization of all these things I speak of and experience them for yourself.

I was just saying, it would be a grace on my part to give my own life for the sake of someone else to be able to experience God and know God the way I do. This sacrifice is benevolent and has nothing to do with Muslim brainwashing jihadist zombies who think what they are doing is righteous. 2 Complete opposite ends of a spectrum that just doesnt reasonably work.

Do you have any experiences which 100% could not have been anything OTHER than God? If so, I'd like to hear it.

Yes, like I said. My experiences came to me from Bible reading, prayer, meditation, spiritual exercises, baptism, and so on. And since I've done pretty much every psychedelic drug in the book prior to this, I knew 100% this to be experiencing God. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and many other things such as seeing into the heavenly realms and what this reality is made of an so forth.

My experiences are the reason why I left the organized churches, pastors, B.S. organized religion ....because 99% of these people didnt have the experiences I had. The only groups that knew what I was talking about and helped me to understand what I was going through was mystics, monks, abbotts, hermits, and others who have experienced exactly all the things I do, and thats how I knew it was God for 100% because I sought out others who experienced God the way I did/do and I knew this was God.... not from an intellectual knowing but from a "being" type of knowing. Its hard to explain unless you experience this.

But you don't realize that a feeling of 'knowing' is just that. A feeling. When people take shrooms they have a 'knowing' of the Universe, when really they are just fooling themselves into believing that they know

A feeling of knowing is still a feeling, but knowing itself directly is just that, knowing. When you know, you know and this knowing goes beyond any feelings of anything. There is no faith in anything in my world because I know for sure that what I experience is God, so there is no need for faith because I see who's hands I'm in and how things operate according to the divine which is behind everything.

I'm so sure of this knowing that I would be willing to bet the house, bet anything on the odds that what I experience is God. Thats how sure I am. Can you say this about your surety that there is no God? Would you be willing to raise the stakes to what I'm talking about here???

That is the human perspective. That everything 'fits' so perfectly and therefor had to have a creator. The reason everything fits is because things change to fit their environment. The environment was not made for us, we were made for it. Thus giving an illusion of everything having a perfect fit.

Thats a human perspective??? I didnt know that before and never saw this perspective until I experienced God and saw things from God's perspective. Perhaps people who claim this are being granted God's perspective. Everything else you describe after your first 2 sentences is evolution and again evolution is an intelligent design itself. Not only that but you yourself and the logic and reason you used to formulate this quoted text are all intelligent designs.

I mean its so obvious it screams to people, but still people dont want to hear it. Every single thing in existence is intelligently designed whether we were made for the environment or not ...that has no relevance. Just look around!!!

I wasn't 'expecting' anything except some kind of reassurance. Some kind of answers for the questions I had. Questions that obviously can not be answered by humans or by an omnipotent God. They can't be answered because there is no answer.

How do you know that the reassurance you seek isnt coming from me, somebody who has been to those divine realities and back? What are these questions and how do you know God cant answer them? Maybe your just not satisfied with the answers. And questions that have no answers dont really matter then if they really dont have answers. Still, w/o presuming I liken this to a window shopper theory, no offense of course, it comes down to becoming a master spiritual scientist, and that takes time

reply to post by FiatLux


I agree with some of what you said. Have you ever heard of "The Divine Matrix"? It's a book written by Greg Braden. I agree with some of what he says about this energy. I believe that there has to be one infinite source. I actually wrote a theory about a year ago that I called the infinite universe theory. It wasn't until later that I found out there was already a theory by that name (go figure). Anywho, in that theory, I state how 'something' was most likely infinite, given the nature of our universe. Also, at the time I was a Christian, so I stated that 'something' was God. Now I'm an atheist, but I still believe there to be an infinite source. Infinity is paradoxel in our universe, and can't exist as such, which is why I believe we are in a bubble so to speak. This is where I got my name, because I believe the truth to be a paradox which we can't understand. We are limited by dimensions that we know nothing about. But 'something' is not limited by these dimensions, making it infinite. I do not believe it to be conscious or anything really that can be described in human terms. The best way I could describe it is an infinite container which exists because it would be impossible for it not to exist. This is why I believe we can't put a label on this infinite source, such as God. The belief in God ascribes many human attributes and contradictions to this entity and is clearly written by humans from the perspective of humans. A perfect infinite entity would not punish someone for not believing in it, because it would be all, and all would be it. That's why the idea of Hell to me is the most obvious flaw of Christianity. It's obviously a man made thing. If there is an afterlife (which I doubt), then we would not be able to describe it in such limited terms such as fire and brimstone. It would be a different dimension of awareness, and something that no words could explain to us.

reply to post by TruthParadox



I would love to read your theory about this, it sounds interesting. Thanks for the reponce Truth.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Speaking of hell as the theological flaw, I was often told that hell is where god isnt. This was coming from the same people who said that God was allpresent. So I would tell them that they were either wrong and there was a place where god was not or hell did not exist and to go to hell meant to become non-existant. Its a paradox that no christian can solve without resorting to apologetics. In my mind God had no use for apologetics.

reply to post by Good Wolf



I agree with your take on this. The problem I find with the way religion is taught to us, is the fact that they want you to look at everything as being all physical. We are taught to see God in a physical form. The same for heaven and hell. And this teaching is wrong. We are not true physical beings, we are true energy beings. You take away the body, and all that is left is the energy that made it alive and active. We create our own heaven and hell, God doesn`t, we do. We do not go to hell as a physical place, we live it, in our everyday lives if you want to, the same for heaven.

If you like the concept of 'energy' being the fabric of reality and life=energy then be glad to hear that all that matter is is just condensed energy.

Other people talk about vibrations and that our 'level' of both enlightenment and living is our frequencies or resonances. Which is true according to string theory.

I don't really look at the universe like that, myself.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Ok, fair enough. I guess I will have to go back and reread what you have posted to see what your take is on the universe.

I´m going to attempt a very short answer to the OP:

1) Is there a God?

God is in you, it is the voice that tells you right from wrong, and that which allows you to love, and has NOTHING to do with organized religion.


2) Is there an afterlife?

We do not die. Our vessels (bodies) do. More than that I do not know.

I don't really have a 'view' on the universe other than to say that it is all a single system of laws, cause and effect.

I also said earlier that I subscribe to determinism theory which some call cosmic fate. And that the universe is not aware and intelligent (no karma).

reply to post by Good Wolf


Goodwolf,
This is exatcly what Im talking about here. You claim that all (stereotypical) CHristians are stuck in this contradiction of the Omni-Present God, but hell there is no God. I dont know where you go this from and I will say there are allot of false Christians preaching allot of lies.

But, God is omni-present, and in hell a person is cut off from knowing & experiencing this, so even though he's there too, the souls themselves are not aware of this stuck in their mental prison constructs. Plus if you read near death experience books and hypnosis on this subject you will see people recall hells.

I see this what you do to downplay Christianity, take a seeming contradiction and use it as a fact to support your theory that there is no God and Xtianity is false, with out hearing the explanation of it. But thats fine. I dont judge you or condemn you or anything like that, since I used to do that to.

Originally posted by dominicus

 

But, God is omni-present, and in hell a person is cut off from knowing & experiencing this, so even though he's there too, the souls themselves are not aware of this stuck in their mental prison constructs.

More apologetics.

Plus if you read near death experience books and hypnosis on this subject you will see people recall hells.

Considering the fact that eyewitness testimony is considered as un-reliable as it is, Id hardly take near death experiences and, especially not, hypnosis as authoritative on the subject.

I see this what you do to downplay Christianity, take a seeming contradiction and use it as a fact to support your theory that there is no God and Xtianity is false, with out hearing the explanation of it. But thats fine. I dont judge you or condemn you or anything like that, since I used to do that to.

If you had read my earlier post you'd know that I'm agnostic, undecided on the existence of God. And I don't downplay Christianity, I rationalise it. Since it comes up as irrational, that's how I portray it, silly and irrational.

And don't give me that 'God cannot be rationalised by feeble human minds' crap, because god is not complex. Omnipresent, omnipotent, all knowing, all good, all loving is an incredibly simple being. God is not complexity beyond comprehension, if he exists then his only aspect that is incomprehensible is his sheer size- but that's a trait hw has in common with the cosmos.
On top of that, these are the minds that he supposedly bestowed us with, so I don't see why he make them feeble, he wouldn't.

But at the end of the day, one only believes in God subjectively, because while seeing is believing, believing is not knowing, nor is seeing. It takes more than an indeterminable indemonstrable 'experience' to 'know' such things.

reply to post by Good Wolf

More apologetics

It very easy to confuse apologetics with fact. When speaking from direct experience that the water is indeed wet to my sense of touch, then we have fact and truth.

Considering the fact that eyewitness testimony is considered as un-reliable as it is, Id hardly take near death experiences and, especially not, hypnosis as authoritative on the subject.

If eye-witness testimony is unreliable then nobody knows what is true and what is false. In that case there is no such thing as fact and there is no such thing as absolute truth. Same goes for science, logic, rationale.

And I don't downplay Christianity, I rationalise it. Since it comes up as irrational, that's how I portray it, silly and irrational.

But who are you to say what is rational and what is irrational??? Is Christiantiy being silly & Irrational a fact???? Are you Irrational & silly for even stating the above notion??.

You feel think this way based on a number of assumptions, conclusions, and observances. Then again I have compassion and my heart goes out with sadness to those who are agnostics and atheists because I know "they" dont get to experience the Love of God and his presence the way I, & many others, do in enlightenment.

Therefor I view the life of someone who isn't experiencing God, as a person who is a slave to their own passions, ego, materialism, science, logic/rationale, and a soceital formed box to one degree or another ....all things which I once was a part of myself. So who is really living a life of silliness & irrationality?

And don't give me that 'God cannot be rationalised by feeble human minds' crap, because god is not complex

This is a huge contradiction for you to state this because you say this as if you know God, when you just said your agnostic? So you know for sure 100% that God is not complex?? This really shows me the holes in the swiss cheese that is your belief system, no offense and I say this for the sake of this discussion.

But based on this "not complex" assumption you have about God ...I will say having Spiritual enlightenment myself and knowing God to be real ...this realization I live with is rather simple ...but to say God is not complex is the biggest understatement I ever heard or ever will in my life.

On top of that, these are the minds that he supposedly bestowed us with, so I don't see why he make them feeble, he wouldn't.

Well the thing about that is .....we used to exist with the ability to comprehend and have relationships and see God. Then the fall happen. I cant tell you whether the whole adam+eve story is literal, symbolic, cryptic, observational, or what ....however there is a consensus all over the world amongst the majority of tribes, countries, tablets, scripture, and religions that somewhere down the line there was a fall of mankind.

I say from direct experience that what happened at this fall was that humans put on ego's which gave the illusion of separation from God and from everyone else. Because of this fallen state ....again I say this from direct experience .....the highest faculties mankind uses to operate in the fallen state with is logic/reason/rationale. However you can regain your original state that was before the fall which equals to Spiritual Enlightenment .....in this state there is no ego, no separation and the newly acquired higher faculties one uses make logic/reason/rationale look like 1st grade math.

For example when you acquire the faculty that is transcendence, paradoxes make sense, 3 things can be one, all things can be one but at the same time retain their uniqueness. But using the lower faculties, a fallen state person cant make sense of 2 things being 1. Intellectually yes, bet empathically experiencing such a reality, no.

But at the end of the day, one only believes in God subjectively, because while seeing is believing, believing is not knowing, nor is seeing. It takes more than an indeterminable indemonstrable 'experience' to 'know' such things.

So than what constitutes "knowing" according to you? Because the way you stated the above paragraph, it seems to me that to "know" something according to your ideologies, is something that's virtually impossible to do. I am of course assuming this based on your words above.

What is to "know'? Its pretty simple to me. To experience something at first is to know it a little bit, and that "knowing" increases the more I probe, learn, and spend time with the object/idea I am trying to "know." In that case I know allot of things, just like I know I experienc(d) God daily and "know" this to be 100% real, especially since its more real and alive than even the experience of myself is.

Another thing is the use of subjectivity. Again this is something thats usually brought up in the scientific community. We are not using Science to look for or study God here, so empirical evidence for God will never work and is a complete fabrication, unless we can use subjectivity.

Just like every scientific discovery is always subjectively experienced by each person ...and then the repetition of the experiment coupled with the agreement by all parties makes something objective.

Of course, these scientific facts, especially ones in quantum physics, cant be understood or experienced subjectively or objectively by children who are still to young to understand them. So when they look at them they see squiggles, numbers, and words that make no sense.

Same thing goes for atheists/agnostics. You guys are children spiritually speaking because your seeing all this around you and it doesn't make sense, Its also squiggles, stories, and words that don't make sense. But in no way whatsoever does that make God untrue. Same goes for science, which doesnt study nor look for God, is completely from top to bottom under the operation of Spiritual children.

God is objective, because I have to reiterate again the fact that if certain methods are undertaken, a person can experience God for themselves and these "knowings" and "experiences" will be completely and exactly in common with others who underwent this process. So it is therefor repeatable, objective, subjective, and in a sense spiritually empirical