Military help for Georgia is a 'declaration of war', says Moscow

Well here it is... Russia is basically saying that the US may have declared war on them...

Russia's Foreign Ministry Says U.S. May Have Sent Arms to Georgia With Humanitarian Aid

Until they have proof... we're not at war exactly.

Originally posted by swesais
I see you didnt live in USSR. But I did.

I didn't and i can understand that you don't know how good you had it as compared to most capitalist third world countries where the US installed dictators that are murdering people by the millions to this day.

Belive me not one single person in post-soviet country want to live like that again!!

That's not true and you know it. There are many many many millions of Russians that would like to go back to how things was. I appreciate the fact that people would put up with far worse living conditions than they were used to in the USSR in the hopes that things will get better in the 'free market' but plenty have long since lost hope and would sacrifice the little political freedom they gained for the measure of economic security they used to have. That is unless Eastern Europeans and Russians are different from the rest of the worlds people in some as yet unexplained way.

I agree that capitalism isnt the best way of living and rulling the world, but you dont have to be affraif every day for your life only because you dont share goverment politics.

It's funny that people who grew up in the USSR can be so ignorant of western imperialist crimes in the third world. You have apparently never heard of all the crimes committed against leaders and supporters of liberation movements in dictatorial Us backed regimes all over the world? Then again you probably grew up AFTER Russia withdrew from Eastern Europe thus having the benefit of a 'western' education and western misinformation.

Russians only know how to break things instead to build something good.

Ignorance truly does abound. 'Russians' were for the most part not in charge of Russia ( they had free elections when during the time of the USSR? ) so whatever your feelings about them it's probably as misplaced as your belief that the USSR did not 'build' anything 'good'.

Stellar

Originally posted by DavidWright
Russia is Scared and it should be. They are losing power and influence in the world and these aggressive tactics are all they know as to looking powerful.

Does Putin look scared to you? Maybe you can state into his eyes like Bush did and 'read' him a bit better then? With energy prices still going trough the roof ( yes it's trough the roof at 100 USD per barrel) Russian economic and geo political power will continue to grow. As for influence i don't see how have the worlds largest nuclear arsenal by yield and warheads makes one anything but influential. I suppose the fact that Russians leaders have played their cards relatively close to the chest have fooled many into a false belief that there is no more power but since such people wont acknowledge even that mistake they will suddenly start seeing Russia as a threat from 'out of the blue'.

People who hate America must realize some things.

The people who really seem to hate Americans mostly seem to be fellow Americans as the rest of the world seem to accurately focus their hatred on the US national security state will continuing to somewhat or mostly envy the perceived wealth and freedom of US citizens. Why did you think there isn't terrorist suicide bombings on American streets like there are on Israeli streets?

Without our country being who we are, the world would be starving and there would be many more military conflicts than there already are.

The world wouldn't be starving ( feel free to prove otherwise) and the US national security state sponsored or fought the majority of the wars in the last half century.

People can argue that America is an aggressor but without them as a power. Countries like China and Russia would have already taken control of these breakaways and the saber rattle might be worse.

People KNOW the US to be the aggressor and it's becoming increasingly clear to even the very completely misinformed US public. I wont pretend to know if the world would be better or worse off but what i do know is that without the threat of a US created NATO the leaders of the USSR and China would have very much lacked the excuse of a well armed imperial power to 'resist' at 'all cost'. Would Russian citizens or citizen organizers have accepted their lot if not for this very obvious foreign threat? The world would have been a different place for sure and with less of a arms buildup i am sure the Europeans could have given the Russians as many Vietnam's as they dared to come get. If various European nations had chosen to invest the same fraction of their national resources and spending as the USSR or US did they could have been at least as well armed in the conventional sense with probably enough nuclear firepower to deter the type of unprovoked aggression the US frequently indulged in.

Whatever else people think.....taking down governments that support terror IS what the U.S. has done and these countries are better off.

Name one and stick around to attempt a defense with actual source documents that can be validated by more than just the NIA/CIA.

The narrow minded view on the U.S being all about evil is so stupid and the same people spew the venom at a constant pace and don't have an open mind.

The US national security state is as close to a modern incarnation of evil as the American citizenry will likely allow and since they didn't vote Bush into power either time it's clear to at least me that Americans want a far, far better world than the world Bush and the neocons are attempting to make for us all.

This country isn't perfect, by any means, but don't use it as an all-in-one reason for all bad in the world.

And ten years ago someone mostly like you would have argued that the US is in fact as perfect as can be. Progress is slow but small battles and victories is what the struggle against misinformation and it's tyrannical agents ( and no, your too horribly misinformed to be considered evil or anything like it ) is all about.

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX


Did I say, that U.S. is better then Russia???Or did I say that U.S. havent commited crimes?Where is my ignorance. Of course milions of russians want to live back in U.S.S.R., because they have their privileges.
But for small countrys like Georgia,Lithuania, there isnt so much options,and we always will chose something that is anti-russian. And dont blame russian goverment for actions of simple soldiers,and civilians, that think that if they are russian they are top of the world. And I dont seem to recognize when U.S. have deported or killed millions of people in direct actions.
Only my country have lost 200 000 people after WW2 and many other after 50 years of slavery,when we werent aloud to speak or language, to know our history. And western world who didnt live under soviet slavery can not understand what really is ''russian'' and what is ''ruskaja dusha''!!!!!

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by sir_chancealot

 

Germany elected Hitler and his National Socialist party too back in the 1930s. Just because a nation is stupid enough to democratically make itself undemocratic doesnt mean we as a democratic republic should blindly accept their stupidity.

And how does your very statement apply to the people of the United States? Be wary of double-edged swords. They cut both ways, you know!

Originally posted by swesais
Did I say, that U.S. is better then Russia???

Did I?

Or did I say that U.S. havent commited crimes?

I think you were far too busy talking about the crimes Stalin committed five decades ago to notice the US crimes going on in Iraq and elsewhere.

Where is my ignorance. Of course milions of russians want to live back in U.S.S.R., because they have their privileges.

In fact most of those have only become richer in the new Russia. I am referring to those many tens of millions that are now poorer with far less security than they had in 1985.

But for small countrys like Georgia,Lithuania, there isnt so much options,and we always will chose something that is anti-russian.

Good luck with that and see how much help you get from your new NATO ' friends'. Maybe the US and European Union will treat eastern Europe better than it did for the few hundred years before the USSR's occupation?

And dont blame russian goverment for actions of simple soldiers,and civilians, that think that if they are russian they are top of the world.

That's illogical. Doesn't it make more sense to hold the Russian government responsible for sending angry/disappointed young men to foreign lands? Isn't that exactly what most governments do?

And I dont seem to recognize when U.S. have deported or killed millions of people in direct actions.

Studying history should help with that.

Only my country have lost 200 000 people after WW2 and many other after 50 years of slavery,when we werent aloud to speak or language, to know our history.

Actually, according to the few sources i took a quick look at it, Latvia lost 200 000 of it's population during the second world war Nazi occupation. You might best know the post war figure so it may just be a coincidence.

And western world who didnt live under soviet slavery can not understand what really is ''russian'' and what is ''ruskaja dusha''!!!!!

Like the Russian dictatorship were the only one around post second world war. Once again the Russian citizens and socialist republics gained much and lost much while the imperialist manipulated and controlled third world lost and kept losing.

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX


I see your arguments. And I can share your piont of wiew, BUT this is about Russia and Georgia, not America and Iraq.
And russian solders arent just angry young people. Do a litle research for example about military group ''Vostok'' in Russias army.
And i wasnt busy in sticking Stalins crimes in every possible situation, but I must live whit them every day,and, you know they, wount let you forget it that once they were masters. And about what profits are you talking about??? Bouth of my parents where teachers in school,and we didnt have those profits about what are you talking about!! If you mean those wast industrial complexes, that Soviet Union installed in every corner, and they after collapse couldnt take a single chance in free market? I dont see what profits have we gain. Before WW2 we were one of moust prospering countrys in Europe,now we are one of the pourest. And from our new NATO friends we have gain military bases and equipment,that we simply can afford, and most important the feeling of security,that Russia would not came so easly to help russian peoples, who ''are oppressed'', because we want them to speak in latvian in the country where the official language is latvian. Yes Europe is trating us better, in our country is comming investments, and slowly we are going up. Recently I was in Russia, and there are still places around Moscow where they dont have electricity and no phone.
So if you have chose between two evils, I will chose , that I would recognize to me as less.

reply to post by StellarX


And I have the luck to live in U.S.S.R. and now im living in horrible capitalistic, free market world. Lets see, Back in 84 I lived in comunal apartment whit 7 people, only because in thse days for one single person you had only 10 m2 by the law. i couldnt only imagine about a car,because it was not only expencive, but you needed to wait until you are the next in the line. And the line was very long.
Now I have house, a new car, and I can afford to spend my vacation in foreign countrys. And Im not rocket scientist or banker. And whit my education is everything allright,thats why I dont argue wit you about U.S. how great they are,but im speaking about my personal experience and things that I have lived.

Originally posted by Cthulwho
I really don't get what's going on. Why does the West care about Abkhazia? South Ossetia?

I realize there's a major oil pipeline going through Georgia, and that the West is scared that Russia might takeover Georgia and control the pipeline. But why can't the West just put a massive military base there? How would controlling South Ossetia and Abkhazia give the Russians much more of an advantage?

Truth is ther is no US intrest in this dispute however for Europe there is an issue. Do you remenber the Nato summit they held its basically a vote.

Like any alliance, NATO is ultimately governed by its 26 member states. However, the North Atlantic Treaty, and other agreements, outline how decisions are to be made within NATO. Each of the 26 members sends a delegation or mission to NATO’s headquarters in Brussels, Belgium.[44] The senior permanent member of each delegation is known as the Permanent Representative and is generally a senior civil servant or an experienced ambassador (and holding that diplomatic rank).
NATO Military Committee

The second pivotal member of each country's delegation is the Military Representative, a senior officer from each country's armed forces. Together the Military Representatives form the Military Committee (MC), a body responsible for recommending to NATO’s political authorities those measures considered necessary for the common defence of the NATO area. Its principal role is to provide direction and advice on military policy and strategy.

The current Chairman of the NATO Military Committee is Giampaolo Di Paola of Italy (since 2008).

Heres something else most people dont know about Nato The Berlin Plus agreement is a comprehensive package of agreements made between NATO and the EU on 16 December 2002. With this agreement the EU is given the possibility to use NATO assets in case it wanted to act independently in an international crisis, on the condition that NATO does not want to act itself – the so-called "right of first refusal".[5] Only if NATO refuses to act, the EU may act if it wants to do so. The combined military spending of all NATO members constitutes over 70% of the world's defence spending, with the United States alone accounting for about half the total military spending of all the countries of the world combined.

So in other words in an international crises any EU member can use Nato assets.

Originally posted by swesais
reply to post by StellarX

 

I see your arguments. And I can share your piont of wiew, BUT this is about Russia and Georgia, not America and Iraq.

As long as one has enough perspective and knowledge to be aware and understand relevance we can most certainly stick to Georgia/Russia.

And russian solders arent just angry young people. Do a litle research for example about military group ''Vostok'' in Russias army.

Since that hardly seems relevant ( not all men in uniform are criminals or saints but contend happy people don't join at all) i will let you tell me about the percentage of angry to not so angry draftees in the Russian army.

And i wasnt busy in sticking Stalins crimes in every possible situation, but I must live whit them every day,and, you know they, wount let you forget it that once they were masters. And about what profits are you talking about???

I am talking about infrastructure development and the security from the type of economic predation that destroyed great tracts of the world under the aegis of western imperial corporate capitalism.
I understand the frequent mention of Stalins crimes and if it doesn't serve as perspective to see what happened in many 'capitalist' countries then i will try a different approach when i can come up with one.

Bouth of my parents where teachers in school,and we didnt have those profits about what are you talking about!! If you mean those wast industrial complexes, that Soviet Union installed in every corner, and they after collapse couldnt take a single chance in free market?

Yes and in the USSR education were mandatory with tens of millions getting four year educations and the like. I am not talking about 'profits' in terms of having heaps discretionary resources but in terms of security from being left completely to the mercy of the not so free market ( it creates poverty and takes from far more than it rewards) that reigned in in most of the world.

I dont see what profits have we gain. Before WW2 we were one of moust prospering countrys in Europe,now we are one of the pourest.

So is that in your opinion entirely due to Stalin and the USSR or did the second world war have something to do with it? I have not seen a single source that even begins to suggest that Latvia were comparatively better off right before the second world than after 45 years of industrialization and urbanization. The industry were certainly not there before and while it may have come about without the USSR the country was not in my reading worse off in many or any ways. Having said that those tens of thousands that were killed and the hundreds of thousands who were deported were probably worse off (especially in the first case) so i am talking specifically about infrastructure and education.

And from our new NATO friends we have gain military bases and equipment,that we simply can afford, and most important the feeling of security,that Russia would not came so easly to help russian peoples, who ''are oppressed'', because we want them to speak in latvian in the country where the official language is latvian.

I'm just saying that one can be very well served by some suspicion towards those who give ( really?) you guns and bases ( by taking your land) on the premise that they are there to 'protect' you considering that that is exactly what the USSR did.

Yes Europe is trating us better, in our country is comming investments, and slowly we are going up.

Because there are heavy industries, some civilian infrastructure and plenty of educated people. Why wouldn't Europe invest where so much potential exists for profit in people who will do the same job they have always done for quite a bit less than Germans or French citizens would?

Recently I was in Russia, and there are still places around Moscow where they dont have electricity and no phone.
So if you have chose between two evils, I will chose , that I would recognize to me as less.

What does 'places' around Moscow mean in plain English that i can validate? As to the choice between evils Western European standards of human/economic rights were certainly higher than that in the USSR so the choice should not have been hard and were not the one i asked.

Originally posted by swesais
And I have the luck to live in U.S.S.R. and now im living in horrible capitalistic, free market world.

You might not see it that way but you were luckier than most if not nearly as lucky as some! Capitalism and the not so free market is not ALL bad and that which makes it good has been hard won by the people of the prosperous west.

Lets see, Back in 84 I lived in comunal apartment whit 7 people, only because in thse days for one single person you had only 10 m2 by the law.

There are many many many families all over the FREE ( lets not talk about mud huts and shacks more than half the worlds population live in) western world that do not have 10 square meters per family member or person sharing. I have no idea if your number is accurate but if it's as you say you were in fact luckier than you may think which is part and parcel of the reason i will never dream of complaining about what i had.

i couldnt only imagine about a car,because it was not only expencive, but you needed to wait until you are the next in the line. And the line was very long.

You and nine out of ten people on the planet. In fact the fact that you could enter your name on a list already probably got you to the one in eight status.

Now I have house, a new car, and I can afford to spend my vacation in foreign countrys. And Im not rocket scientist or banker

So basically your telling me that they did not ruin Latvia or you enough to keep you from achieving all those things as a country/person in two decades? I mean i might be taking something away from you if you were working trough the night for two decades but i find that's not often the case for people who end up on forums such as these.

.

And whit my education is everything allright,thats why I dont argue wit you about U.S. how great they are,but im speaking about my personal experience and things that I have lived.

From personal experience i know that first hand experience is very much subjective ( such as the view that personal experience is subjective ) and that most people have little if any perspective about the world. Either way i am glad you are willing to share your views and do my best to take it all into consideration.

Stellar