Military help for Georgia is a 'declaration of war', says Moscow

Originally posted by greysave
No its not obvious that is the problem. You aren't there neither am I? All we can rely on is the different media sources that are being fed to us. I do hear of alot of ethnic cleansing. Now the Georgians are claiming they are cleansing the territories in the buffer zone in Georgia. Russia has no right. The excuse for Russia's war has changed from Genocide to protecting non-russian citizens. Another poster made a good point, that they have been killing each other for hundreds of years, without Russia's involvement. This is just an excuse in my opinion, although that my not be obvious to you. To say your perspective is obvious and the everyone else is wrong, is incredibly arrogant.

It would be obvious if you had viewed international news sources, instead of Fox News and CNN.
1. Georgia attacked S. Ossentia
2. Thousands of Civilian wounded - debateable on Civilian dead
3. Russia comes in and gets the civilians (and Americans) out of harm's way in S. Ossentia
4. To establish a buffer Russia invades Georgia - ransacks military bases, etc
5. The US steps in - Why? Because the Georgians help us with Iraq and a biproduct of that is that we have a defense pact of some sort with them
6. Georgia was clearly the aggressor in this latest round of violence between those peoples
7. Russia says choose us or choose them - much like Bush saying "you're either with us or against us" after 9-11. Bush answers Russia by sending US Aegis Missile Destroyers to the Black Sea.
8. Now we have a potential world war with a country who did the right thing and was our friend just last month.

We are not sided with the good guys in this.
Bush screwed the pooch on this one.

And since when is "they have been killing each other for hundreds of years..." an excuse to let it continue?

Blah -

[edit on 8/29/2008 by bios]

Is there any economic or geographic importance in the two areas that were being faught over?

Or were they just trying to liberate them from georgia?

Fine.......Hell with it! Lets bring our troops home......Start a national draft.............Build a war machine and take Russia with nukes and troops. I have had it.....Who gives a damn, this is the same crap over and over and over again..For those above 30 we know the truth. Russia is full of crap, and so are we.

reply to post by emile


I do agree with this guy. While the actions of Georgia may not have been the best, the actions of Russia were absolutely overkill. Russia knew it didn't need to absolutely demolish Georgia to make a point. Maybe they were just making an example...?

To Maloy: You are right, this isn't a discussion about Russia's communism, Putin isn't communist. He is a dictator, cruel and unothodox. The US doesn't have the right to threaten Russia because of our hypocritical nature, just like Russia had no right to invade Georgia to the extent that they did.

I wonder what makes you say that Russia invaded soley to keep ceasefire agreements? I assume that you know that any country using that excuse to invade a country isn't a legitimate reason at all. Russia has to have a much more grand agenda than peace-keeping operations. They want something... More.

Could this be that they are still sore because of the increasing western influence borderlining Russia? A very real possibility. While you said that having a bias against Russia based on it's Communist (Red) past was no way to think, I still think we are justified at least a little bit. While the Communists may not be running the country now, it is very realistic to believe that there are still grudges being held to this very day created since the beginning of their Communism up to the very end and beyond.

Let me sum it up:
1. Russian Communism is created.
2. Russian Communism pisses off/bullies people.
3. Russian Communism is demolished.
4. Yes, Russian Communism is dead, but grudges/hatred still remains (on all sides).
5. Thus, there is justifiable reason to believe that we may judge the situation by the past because Russia's past has not been let go.

I'm not saying by any means it is all Russia's fault in this matter, but I do think they exacerbated tensions by their seemingly irrational response. Sure, Georgia shouldn't have bombed the *hit out of civilians... But Russia probably killed more Georgian civilians than Georgia killed South Ossetians.

I guess each side to this conflict could have responded better.
1. Georgia could have waited until they became a NATO member before attempting to gain back their property, then Russia wouldn't have dared to attack.
2. Even then, Georgia didn't even need to bomb the crap out of civilians, all they needed to do was station troops there to keep the providences.
3. Even then, if Russia wanted to defend it's "citizens" so much, Georgia could have let those who wanted to leave migrate to Russia. This would have solved many problems. If they want to leave, why not let them right?
4. Russia should have just stuck to the warzones, made their point and occupied it. This would have most likely put the world in favor of Russia NOT being the aggressor, but the savor. Also, it wouldn't have flared up tensions already with the west and perhaps sparked another Cold War.
5. Russia didn't need to "cut the country in half." This crippled Georgia. Russia saw their opportunity and set them back at least a decade. Hardly fair.
6. This could have all been avoided if the US didn't equip an UNSTABLE regime. Yes, I do like the fact that they are PRO-US, but at the same time, if they had decided to THINK, this might have been avoided.

But don't say that it is absolutely the US's fault. Not everything is...
They couldn't have possibly foreseen that something like this would happen. Maybe next time all parties across the lines will pay attention.

Russia is Scared and it should be. They are losing power and influence in the world and these aggressive tactics are all they know as to looking powerful.

People who hate America must realize some things. Without our country being who we are, the world would be starving and there would be many more military conflicts than there already are. People can argue that America is an aggressor but without them as a power. Countries like China and Russia would have already taken control of these breakaways and the saber rattle might be worse.

Whatever else people think.....taking down governments that support terror IS what the U.S. has done and these countries are better off.

The narrow minded view on the U.S being all about evil is so stupid and the same people spew the venom at a constant pace and don't have an open mind.

This country isn't perfect, by any means, but don't use it as an all-in-one reason for all bad in the world.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Moscow has issued an extraordinary warning to the West that military assistance to Georgia for use against South Ossetia or Abkhazia would be viewed as a "declaration of war" by Russia.

The extreme rhetoric from the Kremlin's envoy to NATO came as President Dmitry Medvedev stressed he will make a military response to US missile defence installations in eastern Europe,

And Moscow also emphasised it was closely monitoring what it claims is a build-up of NATO firepower in the Black Sea.

"If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia," he stated.

Russia, bah who are they..

..err, seems China knows them pretty well:

DUSHANBE (AFP) - Russia on Wednesday lashed out against Western criticism of its actions in Georgia as President Dmitry Medvedev discussed the situation in the Caucasus with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao.


"The Russian president informed his Chinese colleague about the situation in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," Kremlin spokeswoman Natalya Timakova said after the talks, referring to two Georgian rebel regions at the centre of the crisis.

... lets hope Dick isnt licking his lips at a prospect of extended terms, and military spending,
....lets hope Bush isnt recieving his daily dose of brain manipulation serum from the neocons
... lets hope mcbush isnt rubbing his hands together at the prospect of being a president of the 'new cold war'

How did things get this far ?

news.yahoo.com...
www.thisislondon.co.uk...

this will be an arranged war..i read a few weeks ago that the powers that be have picked a time to start the next war..and that its the olympics...this was before the olympics started and i was obviously sceptical...

but...these 'troubles' started on the opening day of the olympics....is that a coincidence?

they are all in with it..russia..america..china...all agreed on a war....or so this report stated...and judging by the ridiculous escalation we are seeing over what is absolutely nothing i can believe it...its so ridiculous how they are all so obviously egging each other on...

Originally posted by bios

Originally posted by greysave
No its not obvious that is the problem. You aren't there neither am I? All we can rely on is the different media sources that are being fed to us. I do hear of alot of ethnic cleansing. Now the Georgians are claiming they are cleansing the territories in the buffer zone in Georgia. Russia has no right. The excuse for Russia's war has changed from Genocide to protecting non-russian citizens. Another poster made a good point, that they have been killing each other for hundreds of years, without Russia's involvement. This is just an excuse in my opinion, although that my not be obvious to you. To say your perspective is obvious and the everyone else is wrong, is incredibly arrogant.

It would be obvious if you had viewed international news sources, instead of Fox News and CNN.
1. Georgia attacked S. Ossentia
2. Thousands of Civilian wounded - debateable on Civilian dead
3. Russia comes in and gets the civilians (and Americans) out of harm's way in S. Ossentia
4. To establish a buffer Russia invades Georgia - ransacks military bases, etc
5. The US steps in - Why? Because the Georgians help us with Iraq and a biproduct of that is that we have a defense pact of some sort with them
6. Georgia was clearly the aggressor in this latest round of violence between those peoples
7. Russia says choose us or choose them - much like Bush saying "you're either with us or against us" after 9-11. Bush answers Russia by sending US Aegis Missile Destroyers to the Black Sea.
8. Now we have a potential world war with a country who did the right thing and was our friend just last month.

We are not sided with the good guys in this.
Bush screwed the pooch on this one.

And since when is "they have been killing each other for hundreds of years..." an excuse to let it continue?

Blah -

[edit on 8/29/2008 by bios]

im in germany and thats not what im hearing..

dont assume your sources are correct..look critically at ALL sources..

You know muzzle. That idea has occured to me. A play, a movie....Somehow I think this ties into the scaremongering that would enable McCain backing. A very wise and deliberate post. Kudos. Unfortunate though for the Georgians who got in the way.

[edit on 8/29/2008 by jpm1602]

Seems to me that we have some revisionist history going on as well as no one seems quite certain how it all started. To clarify a couple of points here is some questions that should help and remember were dealing with 3 different groups with 3 different goals.

Why is Russia supporting the separatists?

Russian nationalists have chafed at the loss of their Soviet-era buffer zone of republics and former Eastern bloc allies. Georgia has been a particular irritant, especially after the Rose Revolution brought pro-Western President Mikhail Saakashvili to power in 2004. Moscow has strongly opposed Georgia's efforts to become part of NATO, seeing the alliance as a potentially unfriendly military presence on Russia's border. Georgia could become the eastern anchor of a chain of NATO allies that stretches from Poland to Turkey.

Georgia is already a miltary ally of the United States in Iraq, where Georgia deployed about 2,000 troops. The U.S. airlifted those troops back to Georgia because of the crisis there.

Saakashvili took note of the fact that Prime Minister Vladimir Putin personally oversaw the Russian miltary operation from a command post in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia. Saakashvili said the Russian leader's purpose is "to depose the democratically elected government of Georgia."

What are the separatst issues for Georgia?

There are two ethnic groups that claim portions of what is now the Republic of Georgia, the Ossetians and the Abkhazians. Like the Georgians, both groups hail from the Caucasus Mountains at the eastern end of the Black Sea. When the Soviets annexed Georgia after the Russian Revolution, they created autonomous regions in Georgia for each of these groups, and those are the regions that are in dispute today.

As the Soviet Union began to break up in the late 1980s, separatists in both regions resisted becoming part of Georgia, preferring to throw their lot in with Russia.

The two ethnic regions — South Ossetia in eastern Georgia, and Abkhazia, on its western Black Sea coast — have been essentially independent since the last round of fighting in 2004. They've had Russan financial support and military backing in the form of Russian troops who were part of a regional peacekeeping mission. Russia has issued passports to most Abkhazians and Ossetians, so it can say that it is intervening on behalf of its own citizens.Why are the two regions so important to Georgia?

Although it's comparatively small — only about 50 miles across — South Ossetia represents a deep bite into Georgian territory. It extends south toward two of Georgia's most important assets, pipelines that carry oil and gas from Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan to Turkey. Russia opposed the building of those pipelines, which cut Russia out of some of the action in the oil-rich former republics.

What triggered the current fighting?

It began as a series of sniper-fire incidents and clashes between the South Ossetian militia and Georgian army troops during the first week in August. By Aug. 7, Georgian President Saakashvili was charging that the South Ossetians were using heavy weapons that had been brought into the area in violation of the cease-fire. Civilians began to flee Tskhinvali, the town that serves as South Ossetia's capital. On Aug. 8, Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to capture the city.

Russia responded with airstrikes on Georgian positions, not just in South Ossetia but also in Abkhazia, where Georgian troops still had a foothold in the Kodori Gorge region. Russia has said it is only seeking to restore stability to the two regions, but as its troops advanced out of the separatist regions into undisputed Georgian territory, President Bush accused Russia of seeking to crush the Georgian military and trigger the overthrow of Saakashvili's government.

disgusting , the hypocritical USA

If anything even happens, which it won't, I'm not worried. America will prevail, as always. Get used to it world, we're in charge.

[edit on 29-8-2008 by m4j35t1c12]

Originally posted by caballero
Is there any economic or geographic importance in the two areas that were being fought over?

Or were they just trying to liberate them from Georgia?

Georgia is a key geographic region for the transport of Oil and Gas from the Caspian sea. The war in Afghanistan was meant to secure a route down through Pakistan and into the gulf for transport - things aren't going that well.

There is a strategic need to get serious hardware into this region as it also compliments the surrounding of Iran (no one noticed this ??!), further cots Russia off from assisting Iran, and aids in surrounding Russia. There are numerous reasons for this based on a strategic and resource basis.

The flairing up of this war as a dispute between these people is complete garbage - they have been living very happily together, trading at the local markets, and are (were) neighbours. This has been entirely provoked by the power that be - any other notion that this could not have been sorted out amicably is utter trollop.

Bush has a vested interest in pushing this region to war to provide a reason to bring in resources - military - the Georgian strike and subsequent Russian response is exactly what was needed to facilitate this.

This is exactly what they wanted - the European and American condemnation of Russia simply furthers their cause of isolating Russia as a resource rich nation -

The problem which the Euro American alliance has not realised is that Russia is more than happy to let the yanks put what ever they want in there - the more the better because it will all end up int heir hands.

Come winter NO ARMY can beat Russia - it is one of the most stable facts of military understanding. Iran, Pakistan, and the rest the "STANS" are all pro Russian and the entire region will form a bloc in alliance with Russia and China.

Pakistan has just gotten rid of its pro american dictator and is looking to return to a more Islamic direction, as is Turkey.

As much as America thinks it has surrounded Russia and Isolated Iran it has actually fragmented itself into isolated pockets in the heart of the baddest region on earth - it is America that will be cut off from itself.

I just laughed in a way I never thought. We are large and in charge. When you see that mushroom cloud please keep repeating that mantra.

Originally posted by jpm1602
I just laughed in a way I never thought. We are large and in charge. When you see that mushroom cloud please keep repeating that mantra.

Is this meant to mean something ? What are you in charge of ? Where ?

Perhaps Iraq - from which you are now retreating as they sign Petrol Deals with the Chinese. Afghanistan which is now considered to be a war with Pakistan ?

Iran - from which you just backed down completely ?

Or Georgia which just got spanked ?


The only thing the yanks ar good at is killing innocent civilians with stealth craft in the middle of the night in thord world countries - Panama, Haiti etc,etc.


Or did I miss something......

Originally posted by muzzleflash
did any of you realize all this is a 100% scripted act? yes its a PLAY, a MOVIE, a SHOW.

Russia and USA are actually on the same side, behind scenes
playing everyone for fools, scare mongering all of us into a phoney cold war

they both agreed to create this mini-low intensity conflict, and use it as propaganda to scare both of their populations into submission, because the war on terror wasnt working so good anymore, as most people saw thru it too easily

putin and bush are both just puppets for the powers that be, the international bankers/corporatists whom control the entire globe now
they are funded and orchistrated by the same people.

remember world war 2? remember how bankers/corporatists funded BOTH sides of the war? remember how it was all set up by the hidden powers? remember how so many people died for what? for nothing!
because the REAL hitlers/stalins were hidden in a veil of shadows, playing their puppets for the entire world
and our fathers/grandfathers died for those lies

you people need to STOP buying into the fake war propaganda (LIES) and realize who our REAL enemy is
the men hiding in the shadows who are funding/puppeteering this entire sham, this cherade

this is how they convince you to kill each other, with LIES

DENY IGNORANCE!

...couldnt agree more...youve only got to look at the words coming out of both sides to hear its all fake..theres no way in the world that this small problem would casue such a problem if they didnt want it to...and all this joking and making fun of each other...pathetic..

a message to all soldiers....LEAVE THE ARMY....YOU ARE BEING USED!!!!!

why kosovo can be independent and south ossetia can not？that's real western double standard.russia is a powerful country that can not be bullied,history proved that harsh truth again and again.you provoke russia you are doomed.

i checked major chinese forums and the majority of chinese netizens firmly support russian stance.some western countries should handle this issue carefully,a new cold war wont do anybody good.

actually there is nothing the west can do to check russia

Any economic or trade sanctions placed on Moscow could result in a Russian retaliation, and experts argue Europe has more to fear from a Russian economic retaliation. It depends heavily on Russia for oil and gas imports and Moscow has shown in the past it is willing to turn off the spigot for political reasons.

"We aren't in a position to take economic or other measures to force the Kremlin to do something," Collins said. "You can make a list of things you can take away from Russia," said Simes. "But you have to create a second list of what they will do in response."

What about going after Russian state-owned gas stations in the United States? Simes points out that Exxon-Mobil has invested more in Russia. And what about freezing the foreign assets of the Russian elite? "Every American businessman in Moscow would become a target," Simes says.

One option, experts agree, is not an option: a direct U.S. military response. "We aren't going to get into a military confrontation with Russia," Collins said. After avoiding a fight with Russian troops for nearly half a century during the Cold War, Washington has been careful not to provoke Russia militarily during the conflict in Georgia.

There two are totally different things with uncompareble aspects.
Over thousands, even several ten thousand Albanian race people was murdered by Serbian army, which reasonably cause Kosovo to be indepedent.

In Kosovo, NATO peacekeeper found pit of ten thousand corpses-mass grave in which contains uncountable Muslim people. This why NATO bombed S. slav to force them pull out of kosovo. The event also presented NATO is a considerablely fare force to solve the conflict between nations.
Someone in China always thought that Muslim and Occident are terrible enemy, but what happened in Kosovo refutted that opnion completely.

Concerning to Chinese Forum
link to the biggest website of Chinese sina

[edit on 29-8-2008 by emile]

redundant post

[edit on 29-8-2008 by emile]

i checked most major chinese forums and it is very clear the majority of chinese netizens are on russian side,as for the difference bw kosovo and South Ossetia,basically there is no difference bt them,what happened in kosovo can alos happen in South Ossetia.they are the same issue.here people can see clearly the double standard.during that conflict,us bombed chinese embassy to belgrade,that was a barbaric violation of the un charter.