I also fell victim to the propaganda, page 2

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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Bore, bore, bore.

Do you know what the Israeli Mossad do?

Do you know what the CIA does?

People like you are boring because you don't and will not understand s#%t.

Originally posted by beefeater
reply to post by Ownification

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You are still falling for propaganda.

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians

The MP who made that revelation about "Al-Qaida" died a few days after publication.
Al-Qaida or mujahideen after the russian conflict where then put on the pay roll of a cia company MPRI, they are paid assasins who work to the CIA's agenda. They fought in Serbia. They are a tool for the US to achieve its long term goals.

Problem, reaction, solution, im afraid

Watch Zero.

www.youtube.com...

Once again indirect help, I know the history of my country very well. I'm from Afghanistan and I do know that even Hikmatiar was supported by the CIA but indirectly, every speech he made at the beginning he would say "death to America", that might sound like a movie to you but it's real. I guess you don't know that Osama hates Saudi kings as much as he hates America. The ISI had very good relationship with the Mujahidine and they still do. Osama was a normal Mujahid like everyone else who came to Afghanistan to fight the occupation and now there are thousands of other Mujahids just like him who are going to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight another occupaction.

reply to post by beefeater

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This is correct Beefeater, however it does not apply to Alqaeda in Iraq or now, Afghanistan. We hope the CIA isn't directing them there. I believe somewhere in here the Op is attempting to construct an argument that the US is a terrorist organization, but due to the complete lack of any coherent logical argument it is impossible to have a discussion. I can get my head around the fact that killing innocents, whoever may be doing the bombing is unacceptable. It sickens me the lackidasical way so many in the US can say "Let's Nuke 'EM!" This however is not the argument. One last point, you say there is ALWAYS a "target" and then use the example of a US convoy in the market. You sir, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I'm sorry, you really don't . It is admirable to explore the ideas of what is terrorism, who defines it? why aren't we (USA) held accountable for similar, if not exact same crimes etc. Your argument however is beyond the pale when it comes to being ignorant of the violence, death, and abjet misery many so called "al-queda" losers project on the POPULACE in Iraq. Dear Lord, is ALJAzeera on the West's side? again, as per my several previous posts, go to BBC.com
or Humanrightswatch.org - or AlJazeera themselves! These people document US crimes like none other but they also document Al quedas! Crimes! Like Killing Innocent Civilians! This must be for a highschool paper.

ColoradoJens

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by beefeater

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This is correct Beefeater, however it does not apply to Alqaeda in Iraq or now, Afghanistan. We hope the CIA isn't directing them there. I believe somewhere in here the Op is attempting to construct an argument that the US is a terrorist organization, but due to the complete lack of any coherent logical argument it is impossible to have a discussion. I can get my head around the fact that killing innocents, whoever may be doing the bombing is unacceptable. It sickens me the lackidasical way so many in the US can say "Let's Nuke 'EM!" This however is not the argument. One last point, you say there is ALWAYS a "target" and then use the example of a US convoy in the market. You sir, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I'm sorry, you really don't . It is admirable to explore the ideas of what is terrorism, who defines it? why aren't we (USA) held accountable for similar, if not exact same crimes etc. Your argument however is beyond the pale when it comes to being ignorant of the violence, death, and abjet misery many so called "al-queda" losers project on the POPULACE in Iraq. Dear Lord, is ALJAzeera on the West's side? again, as per my several previous posts, go to BBC.com
or Humanrightswatch.org - or AlJazeera themselves! These people document US crimes like none other but they also document Al quedas! Crimes! Like Killing Innocent Civilians! This must be for a highschool paper.

ColoradoJens

OMG this is ridiculous, it's like talking to a break wall lol. Once again I will talk about intel, my whole argument revolves around false intel yet you still can't even mention it once.

One last point, you say there is ALWAYS a "target" and then use the example of a US convoy in the market. You sir, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I'm sorry, you really don't .

I still don't get it, my point still stands, why is Al-qaeda a terrorist organization when America is not. You are saying that Al-qaeda is killing civilians intentionally fullstop yet you can't bring me one quote from Al-qaeda which proves your point. We can't know the intentions of an individual. I wasted my time writing those paragraphs which you did not at all respond to but instead still sticking to the same argument that civilians die therefore Al-qaeda is a terrorist organization, I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous.

Please make up your mind, you won't even bother posting what you believe would categorize an organization to be terroristic. Please at least explain that, so we can have a decent discussion instead of repeating my self hundreds of times.

You say killing innocent is terroristic, already answered in many posts above. Bring something new. The whole world can't be a terroristic organization can it?

reply to post by JimBeam

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I'm boring because I don't understand what #? Keep drinking.

ColoradoJens

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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The Uk and USA special forces have both been caught dressing as arabs and attacking the troops and claiming it as Al-Qaeda. I do not doubt that fanatical muslims exist and are fighting the troops. I also have no doubt that some who are labeled as "Al-Qaeda" are simply people fighting for their country back."Al-Qaeda" is used too much as a sweeping term to describe any force that opposes the "liberating troops" and its existance is wholy thanks to the USA.
If the original argument is asking if the US is terrorist organization, IMO the CIA is a terrorist organization. the business that is the USA, that is run by bankers that fund the cia ,in part, is a terrorist organization, in a sense.

reply to post by JimBeam

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Ok, just because I have the time, lets do this: Mossad: Yes, I know what they do. What does that have to do with the OP's thread? CIA - yes I know what they do - have you actually read any of my posts? I have stated, I think four times now, yes, CIA/DOD created the mess we are in. What does this have to do with people killing other people walking to buy some onions? Keep drinking your Beam and I pray to God you don't have someone you love die from one of these bastards one day...BORE BORE BORE- keep on keepin' on in your tiny itsy bitsy world.

ColoradoJens

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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I'm more concerned about my own government killing me than a made up terror organization created by my own government.

When will people like you "get it". There HAS to be some sort of cooperation between government officials and these so called terrorists in order for an operation like 9/11 to work, at minimal.

This is really getting bad. There is going to be a war between the blissfully ignorant and the people that are slowly waking up now. Which side do you want to be on?

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by JimBeam

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Ok, just because I have the time, lets do this: Mossad: Yes, I know what they do. What does that have to do with the OP's thread? CIA - yes I know what they do - have you actually read any of my posts? I have stated, I think four times now, yes, CIA/DOD created the mess we are in. What does this have to do with people killing other people walking to buy some onions? Keep drinking your Beam and I pray to God you don't have someone you love die from one of these bastards one day...BORE BORE BORE- keep on keepin' on in your tiny itsy bitsy world.

ColoradoJens

Let me make this as easy as possible for you to understand by making you answer a couple of questions. We call ths idiot proof debating.

1. Do you believe America did the right thing by droping an atomic bomb in a city full of civilians knowing that civilians would die? YES or NO.
2. Do you believe the world did the right thing by bombing the hell out of each other knowing that civilians would die in WWI and WWII?

Now by answering these question you will come to one of two conclustion.
Conclusion number 1: Anyone who is involved in a war is terrorist.
Conclusion number 2: Al-qaeda is not a terrorist organization.

If this doesn't help than my friend you are beyond me.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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Chickenhawks are boring. They are absolute COWARDS. Are you one of those chickenhawks that talk the talk, but are afraid of there own shadows????

Bore, bore, bore is completely right because I've dealt with the chickenhawks/pussies all my life.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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I briefly read some of your profile.

So you're a soccer dad and an NFL buff???

Name me all the teams that won each and every superbowl. GB won the first two, start with III to present.

No CHEATING!!!!

reply to post by Ownification

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very interesting posts here brother... i wonder how people are going to react to this... LOL!

as the ahadeeth say "actions are based upon intention, and each soul will be rewarded what it intended..."

reply to post by JimBeam

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Ok, came back and got some vitriol my way. This is too much.
Re-read the thread from the beginning, or simply re-read what I have written. There is a difference between the OP's argument - of which is littered with illogical statements, the first being that AL-Q, by their own defintition, do not target innocent civilians, and the question of who did 9/11.
I will say, again, Al-Q was created via Afghanistan/CIA/Mujahadeen etc etc etc. There is no doubt in my mind that someone was in full control of the 9/11 operation who was NOT Bin Laden/Atta/ or Khalid Muhhamad. Who? Clearly the faction within the US govt that held Bush by the Balls during the whole thing. It wasn't even Bush! HA!

Regardless, the crux of both you and ownifications argument is:

1) Al Qaeda are/were CIA/ US inventions that are currently being used as they always have been, to continue a path for the US in whatever endeavor they choose.

2) They, in that sense, do not really "exist" as a true "terrorist organization", rather, they are simply an extention of the USA, therefor the US is a terrorist organization.

3) Also due to the fact that they don't exist, other than as agents of the United States Intelligence services, they don't, by extention, kill innocents when purpatrating their "crimes", rather it is the US who is doing it.

4) We can then make the "obvious" determination that Alqaeda, in all of it's incarnations across the globe, are actually agents, or mercenaries of the US Intelligence services.

Here is where, I believe, the difference in our opinion lay.

1) Al-Q was/is US created/backed/and used by the US for it's own purposes: I AGREE. RE READ MY POSTS.

2) Therefore the US is, by definition, the terrorist organization: I AGREE, and I think a thread on this is a great idea. RE READ MY POSTS the OP claims in his intro they do not kill innocents. I though we were having a discussion based on reality, and I argued as such.

3) US, not Al-Q is responsible for ALL of the AL-Q deaths, therefor AL-Q is not killilng innocent people: Here's where we start to diverge, I believe. By your definition, any Al-Q act is now simply the US. In 9/11, of which I was a personal witness and know much about - when reading my bio and mocking it on this board, did you read the part about my 9/11 experience? Anyway, yes, I AGREE 9/11 was purpatrated between US/Bristish Intelligence and, get this, the THUGS that THEY created, who now have morphed into an actual thing (FRANKENSTEIN IS OUT OF THE CASTLE!) They were stooges, yes, but they still believed in what they were doing.

4) Al-Q, worldly is really US, as continuously stated by both JackDaniels and ownification. Again, I think there is a break in the way we see it. I know they are still being used for nefarious purposes by the US. The idea that they aren't is FUNNY! RE READ MY POSTS! But the fact is we created a NAME that gave way to an IDEOLOGY, that CREATED a NEW ALQaeda, that fights in THAT name. It only strenthens the US position, but still, they EXIST.

Finally, my position on this is: To have a dialogue, you need to establish the terms. It is unreal that both of you continue to deny the existence, other than the US created Al-Q. I AGREE with you on 9/11. I marched in Manhattan against IRAQ. I saw what was happening with the Patriot Act immediately and was agahst. I spit out my coffee when I saw Colin Powel in the UN describing the RC planes IRAQ was going to use to chem-bomb NY. I know President Bush met with the Taliban in the 90's to discuss an oil pipeline there. I am sickend by the no-bid contracts and continued spitting in the face of the American tax payer by this government, the growth of the neo con armies in Blackwater and Haliburton. I, as an agnostic, cannot understand how any religious person, (or any human, for that matter) can justify the response of the US to this supposed terrorstic act. We have about 10,000 killed in the "war on terror" - from 9/11 to those killed in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN. In Iraq alone, estimates vary any where from the absurdly low 20,000 to the seemingly inflated numbers over 600,000. Regardless, it is obvious to anyone not worried that the Arabs are on our doorstep with a dirty bomb that WE ARE TERRORISTS, by definition, to those killed by the US who had NOTHING to do with this. WE AGREE - MOVE IT TO ANOTHER THREAD. Al-Q EXISTS - in WHATEVER form. AND YES, "THEY" kill INNOCENTS in the name of "AL-Q". By the way, re-read my BIO before you come on the board and openly mock me. I PLAY soccer, and I am a dad. Here is the answer to your question, followed by one to you:

Super bowl winners, starting after GB's win in Super Bowl II:

Superbowl 3: NYJ - AFC baby. SB 4: KC Chiefs SB5: Colts SB 6: Cowboys SB 7: Miami (perfect season - nice garo yapremian throw) SB 8: Miami SB 9: Steel Curtain SB 10: Same SB 11: Raiders SB 12: Cowboys SB 13: Steelers SB 14: Again, Steelers. They were really good. SB 15: Vermiel begins crying in the first quarter as the RAIDERS win. SB 16: Beginning of 49's emergence SB 17: Redskins beat Marino. SB 18: Raiders via Marcus Allen SB 19: SF SB 20: Da Bears 44 D. SB 21 NYG - Elways first of many bitter SB's) SB 22: Redskins - see previous SB 23: San Fran SB 24: San Fran - worst SB ever( see 21&22) SB 25:NYG SB 26:Skins SB 27: Dallas SB 28 Dallas - (SB 25-28 all were vs the BILLS) SB 29 - SF SB 30 Cowboys SB 31: Green Bay SB 32: DENVER - Elway breaks the jinx! SB 33: Broncos destroy ATL. SB 34: ST Louis by an inch. SB 35: ravens D SB 36NE SB 37: TB (raiders are 20-61 since! HA!) SB 38: NE: SB 39: NE SB 40: Rothlesberger SB 41: COLTS SB 42: Eli, damn, that was a lot of writing. Now your question: Who led the lead in scoring in 1960 - I'll give you a hint he's a BRONCO. Last thing, without getting personal, you have a problem with dad's? Soccer? NFL? What's up? Because it's possible to be a "normal" human who also happens to love life, and also know that a faction within my government wants to see my life as I know it to change. BS. When I was 18 I drank 30 shots of Beam. Never could even stand the sight of it again.
-Please excuse all spelling errors- I can't edit this.

ColoradoJens

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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Ok, My god I respect you now.

I will never refer to you as Co Jen again. You can think for yourself.

Keep it up CoJo, it's all good.

I must go now, Mr. Beam is calling me.

reply to post by ColoradoJens

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BTW, nice SB smack down on me. I played ball through college and would have gone pro, if not for my knee and back.

I thought I was the only one to name all the SB winners.

Much respect ColoradoJens.

reply to post by JimBeam

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Allright then! My father in law played fullback for Syracuse blocking for Floyd Little. He got hurt and Larry Czonka stepped in. Football is muy painful. My 5 year old started flag football this past sunday - I am still laughing. I realize this may be sacrelige, but have you had an occasion to try any scotch? Again, this may be a sensative a subject as if Al-Q exists, but there is some damn good stuff out there. Also, if you couldn't tell, I am a Broncos fan (bring it on) and the answer to my trivia Q - who led the league in points in 1960 Ring of Fame member Gene Mingo of Denver. How "trivial" is that?

ColoradoJens

reply to post by LOYAL

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Thank you for that post. In your opinion, do you believe this movement was strengthend by the CIA/ISI/Mujahadeen connection, or would it have existed outside of US creation? Did Al-Qaeda exist prior to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? Thanks again for your thoughts.

ColoradoJens

reply to post by beefeater

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Beefeater, sorry I missed this. Agreed. It is rather obvious, no? I believe, being new to this type of discussion, I am off on a tagent of semantics and reality. That being said, yes, CIA IS A TERRORIST organization, by their OWN definition. Curious we are still not held to World Court Laws...Bring in the War Criminals! Just not ours! It's so obvious and in your face that many miss it. Can you see GW being brought to the Hague? NEVER.

AlQ does exist though, and to me the OP can't answer a question without asking one. They exist in many incarnations, and they kill innocent people, as do the US soldiers. Again, not the OP's origially stated argument.

ColoradoJens

[edit on 17-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

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