I also fell victim to the propaganda

Originally posted by LOYAL
to OP, i just briefly went through this thread, however i can tell you from my personal experience because i live here in Pakistan .. that Alqaeda is real threat and they are very organized terrorist organization, they would just kill anyone to achieve their goals, today i am very ashamed that they claim to be Muslims and they propagate *islamic* teachings that no sensible muslim can buy ..... that said i didnt mean that US Govt or media don't run propaganda campaigns they do however Alqeda is real threat not only to non-muslims but also to fellow muslims they just kill any one who disagree with them and they must be crushed down.

I lived in Afghanistan just days before 9/11. There is realy no proof but merely propaganda which drives us to this conclusion:

they would just kill anyone to achieve their goals

Based on what evidence did you come to this conclusion? I would love to know.

My point is very clear, either the whole world is terrorist or Al-Qaeda is not. It is a simple logic, their actions on the ground are exactly the same. The only difference is the technology and intel which in result Suicide bombing was invented.

reply to post by ColoradoJens


Sooo you basically agree with me now, the difference is that you believe Al-Qaeda is terrorist, CIA and all other intel organizations which are directly controled by states making the states terrorists, which in result makes the whole world terrorist since the people are involved with the government exclusing Dictatorships.

Good choice

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Thank you for that post. In your opinion, do you believe this movement was strengthend by the CIA/ISI/Mujahadeen connection, or would it have existed outside of US creation? Did Al-Qaeda exist prior to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? Thanks again for your thoughts.
ColoradoJens

(referring to russian-aghan war) Well, this is very complex issue and for easy understanding they say enemy of my enemy is my *friend* Al-Qaeda or its ilk were supported by CIA and ISI and *Saudi Arabia* they poured in billions to establish *Madrisas* religious School mostly propagating strictest form of Islamic Sect i.e Wahabizm Saudi Exported Wahabizm worldwide during 80s 90s... and most of these madars are the ground base for recruiting suicide or other terrorists... actually most of the students are from poor families who even can't afford food and education so they get them admitted in Madars

As to 2nd part of your question this does not matter wether Alqeda existed or not their founders had existed and they were active like Ayman Zawari Killed Anwar Sadaat in egypt and they have been changing their organization name time to time... there were several Terrorisist organizations in Pakistan who were involved in sectarian killing in 80s-90s and today they are simply called Al-Qadea..... Al-Qadea is actually a Group of like minded organizations.


[edit on 18-9-2008 by LOYAL]

Originally posted by Ownification

I lived in Afghanistan just days before 9/11. There is realy no proof but merely propaganda which drives us to this conclusion:

they would just kill anyone to achieve their goals

last month a suicide attack occurred just 1.5 km away from my home and i was at the very point of attack 30 min before it happened at Lahore, Pakistan.... 9 people were killed and so far thousands of people have been killed in hundereds of attacks who are these people attacking us. And all this mess was not created overnight.... it has roots back to pre 9/11 era.... what kind of proof you are looking for, they openly take responsiblity for such attacks in videos in our local TV channells, they openly threat... and if you google Pakistan is at war for last 6 months internally in Wazirstan who they are fighting with...

i simply can't buy this crap that Al-Qaeda does not exist or Bin Laden has no connection with 9/11 enough with conspiracy theories man. I have met these freakin retards and believe me they would just kill anyone yes anyone to achieve their goals. and they do.

[edit on 18-9-2008 by LOYAL]

It amazes me sometimes how people will put aside logic and reason to back up some point. Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization and they target innocents that is why they are a terrorist. They don't attack the military they get there buts handed to them, In Iraq al Qaeda has lost all its support why? Because it keeps blowing people up in markets.It was common occurrence as a matter of fact while I was there. And they look for the stupidest reasons they can find to kill Iraqis. One attempted suicide bomber was going to blow himself up at a local soccer game claiming the Iraqis should be honoring Allah and not watching soccer.

Apparently having fun is against there religion. Truth is no matter what any body does they will find an excuse to attack you. So when they say they don't kill innocents it doesn't surprise me they hate every body except extreme Muslims so no one is innocent. Read this article it proves my point:

Al-Qa'eda in Iraq alienated by cucumber laws and brutality

Now op to come to this conclusion that al Qaeda is some kind of humanitarian group or a military organization like the us military then I suggest before you get enlightened about any other subject in your life you might want to take the time to find out if your revelation even makes sense.

reply to post by LOYAL


Again, thanks for the information. As is always the case, one, including myself, can only surmise through personal experience as to if something is "real" or not. That is to say, you have personal experience, living within a "war" zone and have spoken personally with those who would kill in the name Al-Q. As I have been trying to explain to the OP and those who only believe that AL-Q is CIA/ISI/SaudiArabia - well, we all take on names we like, eh? I was only wondering if prior to the Afghan/Russia war there was an official organization named AlQ because there had to be a basis for the name. Thanks again and stay safe. Just a question....have you had the occasion to visit the US? Impressions if so? Sorry to assume as you are posting from Pakistan.

ColoradoJens

Originally posted by LOYAL

Originally posted by Ownification

I lived in Afghanistan just days before 9/11. There is realy no proof but merely propaganda which drives us to this conclusion:

they would just kill anyone to achieve their goals

last month a suicide attack occurred just 1.5 km away from my home and i was at the very point of attack 30 min before it happened at Lahore, Pakistan.... 9 people were killed and so far thousands of people have been killed in hundereds of attacks who are these people attacking us. And all this mess was not created overnight.... it has roots back to pre 9/11 era.... what kind of proof you are looking for, they openly take responsiblity for such attacks in videos in our local TV channells, they openly threat... and if you google Pakistan is at war for last 6 months internally in Wazirstan who they are fighting with...

i simply can't buy this crap that Al-Qaeda does not exist or Bin Laden has no connection with 9/11 enough with conspiracy theories man. I have met these freakin retards and believe me they would just kill anyone yes anyone to achieve their goals. and they do.

[edit on 18-9-2008 by LOYAL]

Three children and two women were killed when missiles fired by a suspected unmanned US aircraft hit a village on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border Friday in the third such attack in as many days, officials said.

Who are these people that are attacking you ummm.

The Pakistani Taliban has never targeted civilians, accidently in every war civilians die, if you can't accept that than you are far, far away from reality.

would just kill anyone yes anyone to achieve their goals.

prove your points please.

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
reply to post by LOYAL

 

Again, thanks for the information. As is always the case, one, including myself, can only surmise through personal experience as to if something is "real" or not. That is to say, you have personal experience, living within a "war" zone and have spoken personally with those who would kill in the name Al-Q. As I have been trying to explain to the OP and those who only believe that AL-Q is CIA/ISI/SaudiArabia - well, we all take on names we like, eh? I was only wondering if prior to the Afghan/Russia war there was an official organization named AlQ because there had to be a basis for the name. Thanks again and stay safe. Just a question....have you had the occasion to visit the US? Impressions if so? Sorry to assume as you are posting from Pakistan.

ColoradoJens

ahhh I lived in Afghanistan when Taliban and Al-Qaeda ruled the country, talk about first hand experience

reply to post by Ownification


Ok obviously you are an al Qaeda sympathizer you tried to play yourself off in your first post saying you used to think they were terrorists obviously by reading your posts this was not the case. Or the other possibility is your just playing devils advocate just to try to see if you can get a rise out of people. Either way this is an exercise in futility. Your not trying to debate the topic if you were you would try to prove your point. Assuming your not just making this up and you truly believe this then obviously you have been indoctrinated like they do to children. Since apparently you know very little of Pakistan check this out:

Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militants


Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militant

This is your heroes sending kids to kill people. At that point all I believe it shows is that they are taking advantage of the weak. What's next talking pregnant woman to fight for them? :

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Ownification

 

Ok obviously you are an al Qaeda sympathizer you tried to play yourself off in your first post saying you used to think they were terrorists obviously by reading your posts this was not the case. Or the other possibility is your just playing devils advocate just to try to see if you can get a rise out of people. Either way this is an exercise in futility. Your not trying to debate the topic if you were you would try to prove your point. Assuming your not just making this up and you truly believe this then obviously you have been indoctrinated like they do to children. Since apparently you know very little of Pakistan check this out:

Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militants


Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militant

This is your heroes sending kids to kill people. At that point all I believe it shows is that they are taking advantage of the weak. What's next talking pregnant woman to fight for them?

:

WOW that is alot of s

Keep assuming, but just so you know it won't help you prove your point.

Children as young as six-years-old are being turned into killers

Now read that statement and tell me if that is true. Teaching them to die for the right cause is somehow teaching them to be killers, well I guess no one else around the western world does that. Wierd, but people like you actually take that garbage in. Your brain is not mature enough.

Propaganda stamped all over it lol soo many assumptions.

Now please explain to me how your post prove Al-Qaeda being a terrorist organization? That is what the thread is about right

reply to post by Ownification



I guess my point would be that obviously The point of this thread was to play devils advocate and talk about the peaceful intentions of al Qaeda, Cant Wait for the bake sale. Now back to point there is no denying there terrorists and apparently to you its acceptable to teach kids to kill people. Just because you disagree with them in some way. This shows a great deal about the moral integrity of the individuals running this so called war against the US. And why eventually everyone will stand up to them and they will disappear its all ready starting the Iraqis are hunting al Qaeda.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Ownification

 

I guess my point would be that obviously The point of this thread was to play devils advocate and talk about the peaceful intentions of al Qaeda, Cant Wait for the bake sale. Now back to point there is no denying there terrorists and apparently to you its acceptable to teach kids to kill people. Just because you disagree with them in some way. This shows a great deal about the moral integrity of the individuals running this so called war against the US. And why eventually everyone will stand up to them and they will disappear its all ready starting the Iraqis are hunting al Qaeda.

Are you kidding me How does that make them a terrorist organization, that is what the whole thread is about.

apparently to you its acceptable to teach kids to kill people.

Unfortunately yes it is, I will make a new thread about the rights teenagers should have in a society.

Umm by the way, doesn't your military recruit teens from colleges to become killers for a sum of money? You are fully aware that They have camps all accross America training young teens to become viciouse killers abroad. Get real dude. That doesn't prove they are terrorists.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Ownification

 

Ok obviously you are an al Qaeda sympathizer you tried to play yourself off in your first post saying you used to think they were terrorists obviously by reading your posts this was not the case. Or the other possibility is your just playing devils advocate just to try to see if you can get a rise out of people. Either way this is an exercise in futility. Your not trying to debate the topic if you were you would try to prove your point. Assuming your not just making this up and you truly believe this then obviously you have been indoctrinated like they do to children. Since apparently you know very little of Pakistan check this out:

Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militants


Boy, 12, Beheads Man In Al Qaeda Video
Video Shows Gruesome Training Exercise For Young Militant

This is your heroes sending kids to kill people. At that point all I believe it shows is that they are taking advantage of the weak. What's next talking pregnant woman to fight for them?

:

you obviously make fun of it as if like it with all your lol icons...

Have you ever seen Jesus Camp? talking about indoctrinating kids.....

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Ownification

 

I guess my point would be that obviously The point of this thread was to play devils advocate and talk about the peaceful intentions of al Qaeda, Cant Wait for the bake sale. Now back to point there is no denying there terrorists and apparently to you its acceptable to teach kids to kill people. Just because you disagree with them in some way. This shows a great deal about the moral integrity of the individuals running this so called war against the US. And why eventually everyone will stand up to them and they will disappear its all ready starting the Iraqis are hunting al Qaeda.

really??

then what would you call America with their Black Water / CIA / FBI / Federal Reserve / Etc...?

Or Israel with similair organisations??


Do you think Al Qaeda would call THEM terrorists?

Originally posted by ColoradoJens
Wow, this is a doozy of a thread. Where to start? Your basic premise

1) Al Qaeda is Not a terrorist organization and
2) they do not kill innocent civilians purposely
is

a) Wildly misguided

b) completely and willfully ignorant of facts.

You realize just how nice these guys are when in fact, Al Qaeda cells around the world, specifically in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Chechneya kill whomever they please, often in indescribable ways. Is rounding up so called traitors of the movement in Iraq and beheading them all, not killing innocent civilians purposely? Are car bombs not indescriminat weapons that often SPECIFICALLY target civillians? Idiology aside, the defense of a group of zealots who number in the 3% of all Muslims by posting their so called book of means, well, whatever. Read a newspaper. They are killing innocents, babies, children, old women and men routinely. Defending Al Qaeda, HA! You sir, need to re-up yourself on some edumacation.

ColoradoJens

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

[edit on 3-9-2008 by ColoradoJens]

The citizens in Al Anbar province got tired of Al Qaeda killing innocent men, women, and children, and that's why they're no longer an effective threat in that region. The citizenry simply got fed up at the daily indiscriminate violence, that was killing far more of them than anyone else.



www.globalsecurity.org...

www.infoplease.com...

www.atimes.com...

www.telegraph.co.uk... ive.html



[edit on 12-2-2009 by BlueRaja]

Is this purely a numbers game or what? If so, please post a list of all innocents killed by all militant organizations in the past oh say 50 years or so.

Oh and please be sure to include the numbers of innocents killed in Aghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza, to name just a few, and when naming and thinking about the "militant organizations" who killed them, please do not limit your thinking to only people without official looking uniforms and jet warcraft and tanks, k?

This way we can see just how bad or not bad al-Qaeda actually is, relatively speaking. Then maybe the discussion can continue without fear, emotion, and jingoism.

Thanks.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by ~Lucidity]

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Is this purely a numbers game or what? If so, please post a list of all innocents killed by all militant organizations in the past oh say 50 years or so.

Oh and please be sure to include the numbers of innocents killed in Aghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza, to name just a few, and when naming and thinking about the "militant organizations" who killed them, please do not limit your thinking to only people without official looking uniforms and jet warcraft and tanks, k?

This way we can see just how bad or not bad al-Qaeda actually is, relatively speaking. Then maybe the discussion can continue without fear, emotion, and jingoism.

Thanks.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by ~Lucidity]

Indeed, i bet the Blackwater has some high peaks..

but they, they are untouchable and unjudgable

reply to post by Reignite


Would you care to provide some numbers to show how Blackwater stacks up to Al Qaeda, in the numbers of non-combatants killed. I love how people take isolated incidents and then extrapolate from them to formulate theories(i.e. Blackwater killed X number of civilians on this day, so they MUST be doing that regularly, because they obviously are BAD people.)

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Is this purely a numbers game or what? If so, please post a list of all innocents killed by all militant organizations in the past oh say 50 years or so.

Oh and please be sure to include the numbers of innocents killed in Aghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza, to name just a few, and when naming and thinking about the "militant organizations" who killed them, please do not limit your thinking to only people without official looking uniforms and jet warcraft and tanks, k?

This way we can see just how bad or not bad al-Qaeda actually is, relatively speaking. Then maybe the discussion can continue without fear, emotion, and jingoism.

Thanks.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by ~Lucidity]

Are you trying to compare military operations with intentional killings of civilians for the specific purpose of terror, and intimidation? Should we just appease all of these groups and let them have their way, because the risks are just too high to do anything about them? These terror groups obviously have no responsibility for the loss of life. It's only the governments responding to them that are responsible.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by Reignite

 

Would you care to provide some numbers to show how Blackwater stacks up to Al Qaeda, in the numbers of non-combatants killed. I love how people take isolated incidents and then extrapolate from them to formulate theories(i.e. Blackwater killed X number of civilians on this day, so they MUST be doing that regularly, because they obviously are BAD people.)

Stop false-accusing me!!

i did not say they 'stack up' and indeed i say 'bet' so i think they have done because of ALL the negative news about them..

Then again my real point was that they are 'untouchable' terrorists in certain occasions..