We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians

reply to post by TKainZero


Well said it's kind of what i can't get my head around all these people saying leave the Georgians out to dry because they bombed their own city and killed innocent people.

I'm literally thinking WHAT THE HELL....

It's funny how alot of our American friends have suddenly become paragons of morality in the past few days.

After all the stuff we've had to stand by with them through bombing countries and Kosovo and Iraq. Let's look at a list:

China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Libya 1986
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991-2002
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Croatia 1994 (of Serbs at Krajina)
Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998 (airliner)
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001-02

Sure great time to suddenly chastise people on bombing innocent citizens and why we shouldn't help them isn't it.

Especially when on one hand these people are leaving Georgia out to dry and then on the other hand talking about invading Iran before they go nuclear.

Honestly one day the USA will start a war and none of us Allies will help them anymore we'll just leave them to it and hang them out to dry especially as we've seen their true colours now the 'Do as i say not do as i do approach'.

Skynews:

Villages in Georgia are currently being bombed. Oh well, that lasted long.

help our allies my butt. if russia is busy georgia they can't help as much with iran. we probably sent georgia in to muck it up. russia saw a chance to lower the boom and maybe get georgia back under it's flag(russia). once again, we started something without thinking it all the way thru.

judges give this round to: russia!!!

Originally posted by SR
reply to post by TKainZero

 

Well said it's kind of what i can't get my head around all these people saying leave the Georgians out to dry because they bombed their own city and killed innocent people.

I'm literally thinking WHAT THE HELL....

It's funny how alot of our American friends have suddenly become paragons of morality in the past few days.

After all the stuff we've had to stand by with them through bombing countries and Kosovo and Iraq. Let's look at a list:

China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Libya 1986
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991-2002
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Croatia 1994 (of Serbs at Krajina)
Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998 (airliner)
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001-02

Sure great time to suddenly chastise people on bombing innocent citizens and why we shouldn't help them isn't it.

Especially when on one hand these people are leaving Georgia out to dry and then on the other hand talking about invading Iran before they go nuclear.

Honestly one day the USA will start a war and none of us Allies will help them anymore we'll just leave them to it and hang them out to dry especially as we've seen their true colours now the 'Do as i say not do as i do approach'.

I for one do not believe in U.S. interventionist foreign policy. What YOU propose is a continuation of that policy. That we throw all common sense and start dropping bombs.

That is the HYPOCRISY. When you point out the numerous unnecessary Wars which by the way, ALL of those are internal matters and of which the U.S. should have never participated in, had not people like you and others thirsting for blood pushed us into it.

Instead of proclaiming that these Wars or whatever you like to call them:

China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Belgian Congo 1964
Guatemala 1964
Dominican Republic 1965-66
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Lebanon 1982-84
Grenada 1983-84
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1981-92
Nicaragua 1981-90
Libya 1986
Iran 1987-88
Libya 1989
Panama 1989-90
Iraq 1991-2002
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1992-94
Croatia 1994 (of Serbs at Krajina)
Bosnia 1995
Iran 1998 (airliner)
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001-02


Were errors in the U.S.'s part to show blind unilateral arrogance on these national sovereign countries, YOU and OTHER NEOCONS proclaim "ONWARD" to Russia 2008, then Iran 2008...keep making stupid mistake after stupid mistake....

[edit on 12-8-2008 by Gateway]

Originally posted by wutone
The U.S. can easily defeat (not overrun and conquer) Russia in a conventional war. The U.S. can easily take control of the Black Sea and use submarines with cruise missiles to rain hell on the Russian military.

Well Russian forces in Georgia are dispersed and using cruise missiles against them would likely result in collateral damage among Georgians.

If you suggest attacking Russia proper, well then, Russian cruise missile will probably land someplace around Quantico. Why would you want that?

The U.S. can easily send thousands of troops and heavy equipment from Iraq, through Turkey, and into Georgia and set up an effective defense.

Sure, and Iran would be happy to move into the vacuum left behind!

reply to post by TKainZero


This is Incredibly Stupid. You People are IGNORANT! Russia didn't attack Georgia! Georgia & US Black water Merc's attacked INNOCENT Russian peace-keepers & Civillians!!! US Is Helping attack Russia Because The town of S. O that was attacked by Georgians holds the Largest OIL PIPE Line!! For a conspriacy sight you guys are #ing dead WRONG!

reply to post by Gateway


There's no hypocricsy on my part friend just the pursuit of consistency.

We've after the same goal except i do not deny reality with my approach and brush them aside as simple mistakes as you have done.

You have to wake people up to the cold reality in order to stop further wars not airbrushing out parts or the double standards of good and evil labels.

If the USA doesn't help Georgia then there is no legitamate basis to go in to Iran either.





[edit on 12-8-2008 by SR]

reply to post by The_Alarmist2012


Hi everyone this is my first post on ATS. I served in the military during the Persian Gulf war and Operation Desert Storm and I am proud of my country and I am willing to fight for my country if I need to. However, it is sad to see so many lives being destroyed by the current politicians running our country. To many capitalist trying to make a buck on everyone else. I may be proud of my country, but I am disgusted with the way government has destroyed our economy and at the same time tick everyone in the world off at our country......not good. My countries fore fathers all worked really hard to establish this great country and it is a shame to see things like this happening on a daily basis destroying their hard work.

I have to agree that the United States should back up our allies. The entire situation is not a good one whether we help or not. I believe that the United States is a big hypocrite by not assisting Georgia and where does Bush have any say so in the matter of whether or not Russia should be in Georgia, when we just marched into Iraq and basically did the same thing. I personally believe this is all a game between the US and Russia to allow us to move in on Iran, which I wish just for once that my country would stop policing the world and start to take care of the problems we have in our country and start to provide humanitarian services to the coutries that need our help. Most everyone I talk to here in the central part of the United States all feel the same as I do, so our government currently has an agenda other than the interest of the everyday citizen here and the majority of us are getting tired of the way our government is handling our future. A utopia would be such a great thing, peace for all!

Brian

Originally posted by SR
reply to post by Gateway

 

There's no hypocricsy on my part friend just the pursuit of consistency.

We've after the same goal except i do not deny reality with my approach and brush them aside as simple mistakes as you have done.

You have to wake people up to the cold reality in order to stop further wars not airbrushing out parts or the double standards of good and evil labels.

If the USA doesn't help Georgia then there is no legitamate basis to go in to Iran either.





[edit on 12-8-2008 by SR]

Let me get this straight. You are arguing FOR the consistency of an interventionist policy? Obviously you are for the U.S. to continue war faring the rest of the world. Originally this was a Troskyist, view of the world were, the world would need constant change through the use of exporting interventionist "revolutions". The Neoconservative original members of this set of doctrine are now carrying this mantle and doctrine to other parties, particularly that of the Republican party.

So now you propose like the Neoconservative the maintaining of this policy of perpetual wars, death, and destruction....to benefit who...may I ask?

Remind me again how continuing this policy of invading Iran, Georgia/Russia, is in the interest of the American people?

All of these wars have been prodded on the American people with your line of argument. That the Chinese don't want communism, that the South Koreans need to be protected from the North, that the people of Nicaragua needed to get rid of the Sandinistas, that the people of Venezuela would like to be free and have Chavez removed, that Iraq has WMDs that would unleash on the world, and now that the "poor" aggressor nation of Georgia is being unfairly getting its arsed kicked by the evil Ruskies, the list is endless. You try to convince us that these people are of grave threat to OUR INTEREST and that we should therefore go around bombing them to bend to our will, which is not the case. All of these wars have been spurred on by simply minded interest of the few, be they Exxon, Chiquita Corp., or individuals like yourself; who care not about the interest of the AMERICAN people, but your own self-serving and twisted morality.

If the American people have had it with Waring for the likes of the few, then it is in their perfect right to not continue in this stupid and senseless policy of death and destruction. I propose that the American public has had enough blood on its hands, you obviously do not think so.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by Gateway]

well Georgia have a great relations with US,but at the same time they attacked people who lived in there country,as the same thing done serbs 1998-1999 in Kosovo.
And what the Serbs get,they lost Kosovo,they been bombed by NATO,and today you saying here that Russian made invasion in Georgia.
According the peace agrement from few years ago,Russia have obligation to send troops if any of these three sides start the war.The Georgia start the first,so what the hell they have been expected?Maybe to involve the USA in there war?

why would the USA attacked the Russia?Why the americans think that they have a rigth to attacked anybody today?and tell me is Iran a realy threat to you?i dont think so,the threat to USA is american policy,nothing else.
let say the next,the Georgian army have attacked the South Osetia by howitzers,cruise missiles and " grad " systems ( multirocket launchers ),and by the way,they strike the russian base,killing at least ten soldiers.
tell me,what would be happen if example serbian force attacked the US base Bondstil in Kosovo,which is in range of serbian heavy artillery and kill some Us soldiers?after that what Georgians done,i would be suprised if Russia did not react.
i never did support the killing,mostly cause i come from Bosnia and know what # is happening when it is war,today i am in iraq,and see the same #,but much worste.
after this, Georgians have lost South Osetia and Abhazia,forever,if you don wanna live with somebody in marriage,you get divorced,not use the power.that is the same thing in this conflict,and it is a really bad when you see the pics and videos of dead people,no matters are they civilians or georginan or russian soldiers,they all were live last week at this time.

reply to post by Gateway


Consistency doesn't just mean continuing of the foreign policy consistency in context i was using it also means abiding yourself the rules you set others to follow that was the point i was trying to make.

America can claim terrorism when another country is attacking another country but yet the same cannot rule be applied to it??

I'm sure the countries in that list may like to argue otherwise.

Your arguing a theoritcal stand point though as these things have happened thus you have to make people face the reality of it and the ramifications of these actions which cause further wars down the line.

America by it's own circa 1990's rules and actions has escatled what was already a post USSR problem zone.

We in the west have dug our own graves with pushing for Georgia to join Nato.

You are acting as if it's easy to just pretend these events haven't happened and America can just pick and choose when it starts wars and for whatever reasons with impunity.

That is why wars keep continuing, Simply because of the absence of responsibility for actions coupled with human nature.

I don't understand how you could of misinterpretated my whole stance throughout this thread and thanks for the ad homein Neocon and Trosky slurs.

reply to post by SR


Nuke Russia? Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran?

WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT SYAND BY

Originally posted by NGC2736
reply to post by TKainZero

 

Yes, but there's a couple of points you left out, IMO.

The Georgian troops in Iraq were sent by their government. The same government that is now wanting help. As a sometimes cynic, that looks to me like a player getting points to make a move. Georgia wants into the EU and NATO, so they play good guy and send troops. And, counting their chickens before they hatched, they figured by this time they were in good enough with "The Mob" to start a war, and have NATO jump in to help.

And as far as why Russia kept troops handy, we have no idea what intel they would have had about the plans of the Georgia leadership. They may have heard enough to figure being handy was a good idea. Every country gathers intel on every other, because nobody trusts anybody, not even friends.

It does not matter WHY they have sent in troops, and what the motives were. it does matter that they DID sent in troops, and helped you guys a great deal being the biggest ally after the UK when it comes to the number of troops.

It does not matter WHY they helped you guys, the only thing that matters is that they did it, and now they need your help, so help them!

Damn i hope my country Holland never gets invaded because i am fearing we cant count on our allies, Georgia has the same allys and they arent getting help too, they are being left for dead by the people they helped tremendously.

Oh my god, my neighbour gets in a fight. Ah well, alltough he helped me when i got in a fight, i think he only did it to impress my sister, so why should i help him?

Do you see the wrongness in that ? Georgia helped you so you should help them, no matter the reason they had to help you.

Originally posted by TheNetherlands
It does not matter WHY they have sent in troops, and what the motives were.

But it certainly does! Georgia wouldn't have put its soldiers in the field if they anticipated that only 50% of them would come back. Yes they lost a couple of solders in Iraq, that's tragic. But this involvement has, well, a token value. In addition, they got the latest NATO gear in the process.

Let's say you loaned me $10 till this weekend but come weekend you are asking me for a loan, of about $2000 because we are like "allies" and all. Methinks not.

reply to post by TheNetherlands


I will repeat myself again.

US has only one 'ally' and that's israel.Georgia is not gona get any help no matter what and russia is gona make sure it uses Georgian grounds to warm up its troops with first hand war experience and gear up for a bigger conflict.

hmm this reminds me a lot of WWII. with the whole ally issue, and the fact that 20 years ago russia was humiliated after the cold war much like gremany. and now they're starting to invade nearby nations tat once belonged to them.

Originally posted by Attari
reply to post by TheNetherlands

 

I will repeat myself again.

US has only one 'ally' and that's israel.Georgia is not gona get any help no matter what and russia is gona make sure it uses Georgian grounds to warm up its troops with first hand war experience and gear up for a bigger conflict.

yes, and by taking back georgia they will gain experience and use it for an imminent war agaisnt you guys. And thats why you guys should stop it too.

and about israel being the only ally.. you never turn your back on people that helped you. It does not matter why or how they helped you, it does not even matter if the help was important, you dont turn your back on them.

If the UK gets attacked and is losing will you not help them either? Or spain, a country who got attacked on own grownd, because they helped you? Will you still say only israel is your ally?

Originally posted by TKainZero

Originally posted by The_Alarmist2012
reply to post by misswanderer31

 

To support Georgia in any Military way would mean a US war with Russia.

But wouldn't Russian have to think the same way?

An attack on an American Ally, is like an attack on the US herself...

SO, by attacking Georgia, its seems like Russia WANTS to fight the US... But at this point, the US is scared, or to cautious to do anything...

So Russia now realises they are able to move unchecked, this is why, i belive, that Russia is EXPANDING the war in Georgia right now... THey are moving UNCHECKED from the world...

Its going to be intresting to see how Moscow redraws the lines...

Sometimes, asking nicely doesnt get the job done...

We could "lend lease" some A-10's. Surely, Russia remembers "lend lease" that helped them during World War II.

NATO could provide AWACS coverage by flying over Turkish airspace and pinpoint the location of Russian aircraft to aid their destruction.

[edit on 12-8-2008 by CharlesMartel]