We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians

Hell no, for 5 years we have been criticized on Iraq non stop. Everyone complains that the U.S. gets involved in things it shouldn't. Well, it starts right now. Let those people die, let the next country that gets invaded by whatever big communist country get crushed as well. They won't miss us until we're gone and by then it'll be to late.

Hello everyone, this is my first post here on ATS. I'm really not sure where to begin on this topic. I have read all the posts so far on this thread and would like to add my feelings about this terrible situation in Georgia.

I truly understand why the United States should not intervene in the current situation in Georgia, because of the overall global effect it could possibly cause. Yet at the same time I'm ashamed to see the US not supporting our allies. It really makes the US look like a bunch of hypocrites with only money and oil on their minds. We can march into Iraq for several reasons I don't care to elaborate on, yet president Bush can criticize Russia for doing the same thing in Georgia, the pot calling the kettle black so to speak if you ask me. If Israel were to ask for our aid against Russia or any other country, the United States wouldn't think twice about lending them aid, so why is this any different? I assume that because the Georgian territory can't offer the United States any sort of financial gain, we are brushing this to the side.

I believe that I was brought up in this world by a family that has good moral values and I was taught that if a friend asks you for help, you should do what you can to assist them regardless of race or religion. The Georgians came to assist the United States, the British, and several other countries in helping stabilize Iraq and now they are asking for our assistance and we are not providing any.

I really don't want to see any sort of nuclear war or war period for that matter, but at the same time the United States just keeps setting the wrong example. We need to take care of our friends, and we need to start giving humanitarian support to countries that need aid for a change.

Peace!

Bush won't do anything. He's too busy watching the Olympics.
The economy is in a crisis, banks are failing, homes are being foreclosed, our Allies beg for help, oil is running out, and all Bush can do is cozy up with the Chinese leaders, and watch the Olympics. Bush has taken the role of lame duck to a new low. If he were a CEO of a major corporation in crisis, he'd have been canned by the stockholders already. Well, we're the stockholders, and the Congress is our "Board of Directors", and they have defaulted on their role. They are as complicit as he is in this role of non-involvement (except, of course, when it comes to bailing out the banks and bankers). Isn't anyone else disgusted by this non-action of our "elected leaders"? I use the term "elected" loosely.

reply to post by TKainZero


That's what America does! Same thing happened with Iran in 1979. Us put Shah in Iran to steal Oil and other goods for very low price.

After having a great relationship with Shah, at the time of revolution they did nothing to help him out, even though he was dying from cancer. They did NOT allow him to move to US for safety even though they used him as a puppet for over 15 years. He end up dying in Egypt, only country that took him in.

Originally posted by SR Consistency doesn't just mean continuing of the foreign policy consistency in context i was using it also means abiding yourself the rules you set others to follow that was the point i was trying to make.

America can claim terrorism when another country is attacking another country but yet the same cannot rule be applied to it??

I believe all nations reserve the right to self-defense. Georgia can do what it wants; yes, this includes even the stupid decision of shelling its own citizens or former citizens depending on what the South Ossentia people would like to refer to themselves. Granted, I think there is a better way than killing your own people, in order to force them back into a union that they may not want. If the people of South Ossetia, feel they no longer are being represented by Georgia. As Justin Raymondo put it so aptly in his article:

South Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) have had de facto independence since 1991, when they rose up against their "democratic" central government, which had banned regional parties from participating in elections. They beat back the Georgian army, which, nonetheless, inflicted a lot of casualties and damage. A low-level war has been in progress ever since, with Saakashvili and his ultra-nationalist party using the rebels as a foil to divert attention from their repressive domestic policies and Georgia's sad status as an economic basket case.

Source:www.antiwar.com...

Then the South Ossentia have a right to self-determination. That does not mean that I neither approve the interference of Russia in this matter, but they had troops there for awhile ALL OF THIS IS KNOWN BY Saakashvili, he gambled that the Russian would back down...why would he do this? I'll get back to this in a minute. Read on.

I'm sure the countries in that list may like to argue otherwise.

I guarantee you that all of these countries that you mention above are not happy we intervened in their affairs. Our interference in their country is probably described not as a highlight but as a black mark in their history text books. We constantly hear about U.S. imperialism around the world, imposing our will on smaller states, which is true and again due to certain lobbying interest groups here in the U.S.

Your arguing a theoritcal stand point though as these things have happened thus you have to make people face the reality of it and the ramifications of these actions which cause further wars down the line. America by it's own circa 1990's rules and actions has escatled what was already a post USSR problem zone.

Here you are contradicting yourself. You claim that DUE to our foreign interventionist policies that we exacerbated the problems. In other words, our foreign policy has probably contributed to this mess, which I agree with. But then you turn around and ask for further "intervention". This is a major line of contradiction on your part. If we've had a terrible history of foreign policy in the past, and with this current regime probably more-so, the evidence is right there of constant U.S. blunders. And so now what makes you think Dubya would turn this around?

Here's the real KICKER!! The interventionist foreign policy that some of you are clamoring about has led to this crisis in the first place, that's right!!! Here's what I mean; the Georgian attack on South Ossetia appears to have been a terrible miscalculation by the Georgians and their US and Israeli advisers, who have been trying to solidify control over the oil pipeline in recent months. As some observers have noted, there's even some reason to believe that the foreign advisers may have been in the forefront of the attack, based on the appearance of the troops and their gear in pictures of the earliest action. In overreacting to the obvious provocations from the Russian-backed South Ossetians, the Georgians handed Russia the excuse it was quite obviously waiting for. I doubt Russia wants to annex Georgia, they are seeking a regime change, preferably to one that is pro-Russian.

Georgia did start this. That the Russians anticipated such a blunder and are taking full advantage of it doesn't change the central fact of the situation. The truly worrisome possibility is not Russian expansion in the Soviet model, but rather, the idea that the attack on South Ossetia was not a blunder, but rather an intentional provocation by the USA designed to trigger a wider war in the area that will allow for a strike on Iran before the end of the Bush administration.

THAT'S RIGHT!! The foreign intervention you've been asking about has already happened and because of it, it resulted in Georgia getting kicked in the backside. Thanks to Bush, Georgia miscalculated. And yet you want more of this great help going to Georgia??

We in the west have dug our own graves with pushing for Georgia to join Nato.

The Europeans have been wary to let Georgia into NATO, in fact it was a more serious contention to allow Georgia into Nato, once it smoothed-out its relations and reassertion of sovereignty in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Saakashvili clearly didn't do this. It could be argued that his aggression, was a direct slap to the faces of the EU NATO members.

You are acting as if it's easy to just pretend these events haven't happened and America can just pick and choose when it starts wars and for whatever reasons with impunity.

Quite the opposite, most Americans (regular American people I'm talking about) don't like to send off their young men and women off to some far away country to die for the interests of a few. Most of our Wars have been on the orders of our President not our Congress. I can guarantee you that if every conflict was left to Congress to decide (as it should, based on our Constitution) you would not see, U.S. troops spread out over 135 countries around the world. To simply put it, the impunity that you speak of does not represent the American people's wishes, this impunity and U.S. aggression around the world only reflects those of the politically-connected corporatist.


[edit on 12-8-2008 by Gateway]

post by SR
That is why wars keep continuing, Simply because of the absence of responsibility for actions coupled with human nature.

Wars happen because a few desire it so. Peoples within nations don't want to kill other people. Wars occur because a few or power elite if you will want to protect their interests. That is the only reasons why wars occur. So, what I'm trying to say is that the people who want to push the U.S. into these wars are people who have something to gain, because the average American does not gain to have its young men and women die, and its coffers emptied. So each time you or others here beat on your war drum, you are only arguing on behalf of those that stand to benefit from more death and chaos. Clearly the American people will not be served if we fight ANY WAR, unless it is one that is of self-defense.

I don't understand how you could of misinterpretated my whole stance throughout this thread and thanks for the ad homein Neocon and Trosky slurs.

Being a Troskyist and Neocon is not an ad hominem in and of itself. Both are political philosophies that have roots in Marxism, but actually goes even before that, into mercantilism...etc. Although the bad connotation of being identified as a Neocon is justified and is self evident in the misery, death, and destruction which it brings.

I referred to your philosophical stance as Neoconservative, simply because it is, or at least sounds like it. When a state intervenes in issues of foreign matters, that have nothing to do with its domestic issues, as in when Bush attacked Iraq, now wants to attack Iran, wants to bring democracy to the Middle East whether they want it or not, or as in the case of Georgia; when the Bush and Israeli advisers were sent there in order to influence their policy towards South Ossetia,

And even as we speak now when some, especially within the NEOCON ranks are calling for military intervention in Georgia/Russia. All of these are clear examples of Neocon foreign policy at work. It is ironic, you see; you think you are standing against Bush, when in actuality YOU and others are making their case for them, HERE on ATS. When you say, "the U.S. should do something militarily", you're standing in the same room and sounding the same war drums that Bush, Cheney, Kristol, Podhoretz, Mcain, and even Obama et al. are all beating on. All of these people want to go to war, and are doing so, indirectly (Do the research yourself) the only reason why we probably don't have full blown war now is because the Bush regime is gearing up for their own war, and one that has more lucrative interests to offer than that of Georgia.

Thus the louder you beat on your war drum the more you encourage more needless deaths (American and Foreign) and the more our country is driven into bankruptcy, and economic collapse. WE have Iraqi blood and soon going to have Persian blood on our hands and you and others want to add Gerogian/Russian blood to that as well. I don't think you and others are really thinking this through...



[edit on 13-8-2008 by Gateway]

reply to post by SaviorComplex


"...Russia is already blaming the United States for this, because the US has supplied Georgia will some military equipment."

If that's the case, then we should let them sell all the military equipment they wish to do so to whichever country they want to. That just gives us a free pass to blame them for whatever happens should the U.S. decide to invade it.


Whoever came up with that idea is a complete idiot!

[edit on 8/13/2008 by Americantrucker]

I hope the fact that we dont stand up for our "allies" isnt a surprise to anyone.

We sell the idea of war to the masses, including our own people, as an idealistic vision. Freedom, democracy, the right thing to do.

It is always economic.

Our government cant support our allies that are as small and poor as Georgia against a rich and powerful economy like Russia any more than our politicians can support the individual American citizen in opposition to the powerful corporate interests here at home.

Simple

"you" helped us because you want to be a member of NATO and receive protection.
But since you aren't in the NATO yet and we don't want a foolhardy useless but nonetheless bloody war with Russia and destabalize o, only the whole planet we won't help you with your offensive.

As why Europe helped the US in iraq "liberate" the iraqi's I'm still not sure. A big mouth vs the Russians is okay but I guess our European leaders are scared #less of saying no to the USA.
But standing with you, Georgia, against Russia right now is unwise an it is unclear who the real aggressor here is, it seems to be Georgia, Europe made a fool out of itself once too many by supporting a certain other illegal war.

One suggestion: If you want to be NATO stop starting badly planned and hopeless wars, actually stop starting wars at al, NATO doesn't exist to bail countries out when they make very bad decisions, it exists to protect it's members from others but not from themselves.

This will be a big setback to your (Georgia's) efforts to join NATO.

Some of my ex-colleagues are now in Iraq. And no matter how much you do for your American colleagues, apparently you do not get extracted from a hot zone in a U.S. - craft if you do not have a U.S. passport.

Maybe because they started it?

You can't go in, kill 1400 civilians, and then when someone protects them, go cry to your allies.

Sorry Georgia, but it just doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by Manincloak
Maybe because they started it?

You can't go in, kill 1400 civilians, and then when someone protects them, go cry to your allies.

Sorry Georgia, but it just doesn't work that way.

So you won't be complaining the next time a bunch of Arabs attack America.

For the sake of constiency now and not to look like a hypocrite.

Good to know.

Im betting my life on it that you guys, as in the USA, would have helped Georgia if there was any oil to gain.

You think of yourselves as World Police, you always tell others what to do, you start illegal wars, you invade countrys for reasons that are not reasons but lies.

And now you finally can do the right thing, helping a friend in need whom helped you too, you wont do it, because they have no oil.

Again, the USA sets a good, ahum,.. example, and again you have created more and more hate towards yourselves.

We on ATS are not the only ones digusted by the USA turning his back on his friends, everywhere in the world people shake shame of it. And then you guys get attacked and you wont understand why. Ironical, typical, and what not,..

reply to post by TheNetherlands

You think of yourselves as World Police, you always tell others what to do, you start illegal wars, you invade countrys for reasons that are not reasons but lies.


And now you finally can do the right thing, helping a friend in need whom helped you too, you wont do it, because they have no oil.

Hmmm, short memory you people have in the Netherlands. Let me remind me what YOU people did during World War II:

Thousands of Dutch volunteers joined the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland (created in February 1943). The division participated in fighting against the Soviet army and was crushed in the Battle of Berlin in April–May 1945.


This was also the case for the 5th SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking. It was involved in several major battles on the Eastern Front.

SS-Freiwilligen Legion Niederlande, manned by Dutch volunteers and German officers, battled the Soviet army from 1941.

en.wikipedia.org...

Prime collaborators with the Nazis. Way to go Dutch.

No, I don't think YOU Dutch have any right to claim moral ground.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus




That was a little group called NSB. That was not the government and it was certainly NOT 100 percent of the people, not even 0.5 perecent.

This has nothing to do with a government turning his back on a friend, this were people threatened by the nazis to help them and betray their fellow dutchman.

And because it has NOTHING, really NOTHING to do with this case, please dont bring this up anymore. This is a topic not generally discussed by Dutch people, its a taboo. After the WWII people who became known as an NSB-er were publicly humiliated, killed, and what not. Even now, 60 years later you dont want it to get out if your grandpa or whatever was an NSB-er because your life would be over the second people will find out about it.

I dare you to come visit this little country sometime and call anyone a NSB-er. You would definatly end up in a hospital, i assure you.
And i dont mean this as a threat, i tell you this to show you how dutch people think of the NSB.

Please dont bring this up because it has nothing to do with this case, and please dont be childish to search for things that happened 60 years ago because someone is not agreeing with your government.

By the way, dutch director sir Paul Verhoeven, (director of RoboCop, Total Recall, Basic Instinct and Hollow Man so i think you know him) made a dutch movie called Zwartboek (Blackbook) in 2006 about the resistance and the NSB. I recommend you, one way or another, get to see this movie. Its Paul Verhoeven so i dont have to tell you the movie is as good as a Hollywood movie and it will show you exactly what happend with people collaborating with the Germans.

[edit on 15/8/08 by TheNetherlands]

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by TheNetherlands

 

You think of yourselves as World Police, you always tell others what to do, you start illegal wars, you invade countrys for reasons that are not reasons but lies.


And now you finally can do the right thing, helping a friend in need whom helped you too, you wont do it, because they have no oil.

Hmmm, short memory you people have in the Netherlands. Let me remind me what YOU people did during World War II:

Thousands of Dutch volunteers joined the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland (created in February 1943). The division participated in fighting against the Soviet army and was crushed in the Battle of Berlin in April–May 1945.


This was also the case for the 5th SS Panzergrenadier Division Wiking. It was involved in several major battles on the Eastern Front.

SS-Freiwilligen Legion Niederlande, manned by Dutch volunteers and German officers, battled the Soviet army from 1941.

en.wikipedia.org...

Prime collaborators with the Nazis. Way to go Dutch.

No, I don't think YOU Dutch have any right to claim moral ground.

1941...2008.....1941...2008 yip there is most defintely a difference... Please tell me who the dutch invaded these past 8 years...

reply to post by TheNetherlands

you invade countrys for reasons that are not reasons but lies.

By the way, I'm not interested in your revisionist history. Believe what you want about the collaborators. There are still people that believe that the holocaust did not occur too. That doesn't mean it didn't though. Live in your dreamworld, and deny the collaboration.
The original point is that we DON'T "invade" countries for no reason at all. You Europeans seem to ignore 9/11. One of MY relatives was KILLED by your non-existent enemies. That answers the Afghanistan question. Bin Laden was there, and supported by the Taliban.
You also forget that Sadam Hussein invaded Kuwait, most of the world joined in the war against him. Bush Jr. was just finishing the job the world did not. As the for "weapons of mass destruction, both Democrats and Republicans believed that Sadam had them, as did Tony Blair, and the UN. Just because they weren't found, doesn't mean they weren't there.
As for the Netherlands, if it weren't for the US, you'd still be giving the Nazi salute, assuming Hitler didn't kill all the natives.
How quickly you Europeans forget that WE liberated you. Or did we liberate YOU for no reason at all? If so, I'm sure there are some countries that would be glad to "un-liberate" you. Russia, for one.

reply to post by Lethil

I want the world to burn into embers.I will destroy everything and everyone.Death will be a reward for what i have planned.

Your signature says all that I need to know about you. Some might consider your signature a terroristic threat. I'd be careful if I were you.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Did you actually READ my post?

1. I never said there was no holocaust
2. I never said dutch people did not collaborate
3. Yes you are invading countrys for no reason. You invade Iraq because of WoMD but there never were any WoMD so its just, plain and simple, an illegal war started on a lie. What is Bush any different than all those other criminals of war?
3. 9/11? You did that yourselfes, there never was any terrorist or terrorist attacks, it was your own government. A govrnment killing its own people on its own grownd.

Furthermore, i do not care that you think you liberated us. First off all, you liberating us does not mean that you can boss us and the rest of Europe around, second off all, you are not the only ones that liberated us or whatever other country, you had help so quit playing the macho man and quit demanding credits for something you could have never done alone.

And now you started that discussion about liberation, did you forget that it was the US itself that financed the Nazis? Does the name Bush ring a bell?

I am not going to reply further nor am i going to read your post. Because you clearly did not read mine there is no sense to discuss,..

[edit on 15/8/08 by TheNetherlands]

reply to post by TheNetherlands

9/11? You did that yourselfes, there never was any terrorist or terrorist attacks, it was your own government. A govrnment killing its own people on its own grownd.

I think the above statement speaks for itself. What a sick statement that is. People like this don't deserve further consideration. You're on my ignore list.