God's 911 warning to the US

Everyone can believe the way the want to. There is no right or wrong in reality. We don't understand our universe enough to take a crack at what created. We're definately in for it...

Originally posted by scorand
reply to post by heliosprime

 

and certian christian groups and some gov officials want the christian religious ideal forced on everyone here.. thats why we have groups like the phelps harping that everyone else is wrong and goin to hell, why we have these neo con/nazis in charge.. and the general community doesnt want to offer equal rights to gay couples..need i go on???

the neo-con/nazis are in charge now for the same reason the liberal-progressive-commies were in charge before..... the people who elect them are dumb!!!!!

And further concerning your tirade; by the same token I don't want the the false idea that gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender-isms are a "lifestyle" or the thought-control legislation of hate-crimes and political correctness rammed down my throat.

-Euclid

and correct me if i'm wrong but arent the current bibles and churches based on the same papal decrees, and doesnt that alone defeat the reason america was founded?? to deny others right to worship as they believe defy the reason for the break with king george,, now look we have king george the 3rd ruining things and people wonder why we have no authority or respect in the global community. i appolgize to the christians i may have offended but is this not true?

the neo-con/nazis are in charge now for the same reason the liberal-progressive-commies were in charge before..... the people who elect them are dumb!!!!!

And further concerning your tirade; by the same token I don't want the the false idea that gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender-isms are a "lifestyle" or the thought-control legislation of hate-crimes and political correctness rammed down my throat.

-Euclid
true enough on the neo thing , however the rest is b.s and i sure as hell aint politicaly correct,

Originally posted by euclid

All you need to do is READ WHAT THEY WROTE ABOUT THE SUBJECT!!!!! They wrote in simple english for gods sake!!!!! Is everyone so dumbed down now a days that they can't understand proper english anymore??????!!!! Just read what Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, & Paine said about religion.... most of it is available on line.

-Euclid

Perhaps your fatal sin is arrogance.......trying to rewrite history to say the founders are "deist" is absurd.

The founders were more closely aligned to true "christian" faith than the morons of today. They clearly understood the corruption of the catholic church and its pagan traditions. The amendment was intended to keep a "national" religion such had been fored on them as in england from being passed into law by the congress. So true faith in God and Jesus could actually thrive and prosper.

What YOU in your ignorance of truth see as proof of "deist" is actually tearing down the pagan traditions of the catholic church and the slight variations of the "anglican" shadow of the paganisim.

Todays "conventional" christianity is just as corrupted. Just look at the TBN channel with its hand always out. Just look at the TV mega-churches and the "feel-good" tripe they push on ignorant masses. They are not bringing people to Christ they are leading them into damnation.........

The ignorant concept of "deist" seperates God from mankind. God has be involved in mankinds daily life since creation. The proof is all around you and throughout history. To say God is "aloof" and unapproachable is the twisted evil of satan.

reply to post by scorand
I'm sorry, but could you post a couple of examples of Christians wanting to force religious worship on others?

This whole topic is getting absurd. I go to church most Sundays, and I pray a lot. Physically, that's all I do. To date, no one has been able to show me how that is 'forcing' acceptance of my religious beliefs on them. On the other hand:

In public schools now, a child has to have a note and a prescription to take an aspirin. Yet, should a young girl get pregnant, the same school can transport the child to a clinic, pay for an abortion for her, and never discuss the matter with the child's parents or family doctor of record. And should a problem arise because of this operation, the school and the clinic are legally held not responsible. Religious objections are simply ignored.

The town of Las Cruces NM was recently under attack from the ACLU for having a cross in their city seal. This cross has been in the seal since the city was founded, is a minor part of the seal, and the very name 'Las Cruces' means 'the cross' in Spanish. Also, the last report I heard was that no one in the town had petitioned the ACLU to get involved.

As I drive down the road every day, i see areas where people have erected small crosses on the side of the road to commemorate the deaths of loved ones killed in auto accidents. It has become a popular thing, and it has the intended purpose of commemorating the dead as well as alerting others ot the dangers of unsafe driving and possibly a dangerous intersection. Now, certain cities are talking about passing laws that would make these commemorations illegal and require family members of the deceased to pay for 'standardized' markers instead.

Judge Roy Moore used to have a small plague on the wall of his courthouse that commemorated the Ten Commandments. He was ousted from office, amid public outcry from the locals to keep him in, even though not one single allegation was made concerning his use of those commandments to make legal decisions.

Across the country every year, Christmas trees are banned from public view, manger scenes are attacked and vandalized, and local areas are prohibited from erecting lighted decorations that in any way reflect a religious faith.

Children in public schools are regularly denied the ability to pray privately. There have been reports of valedictorians being forced to not thank God in their speech, young children being failed for mentioning Jesus or God in an essay of their choosing, and private Christian clubs being shut down, even though atheistic clubs are allowed to flourish.

The only thing I hear from those who claim Christians are trying to overrun them is that someone asked to talk to them about Jesus. How terrible... no wonder you're bitter.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by euclid

the neo-con/nazis are in charge now for the same reason the liberal-progressive-commies were in charge before..... the people who elect them are dumb!!!!!

ummmm... last time i checked, george bush was appointed by the supreme court, not elected by the people.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by scorand
I'm sorry, but could you post a couple of examples of Christians wanting to force religious worship on others?

i certainly mean no offense, but just go downtown rochester, NY. stand at any bus stop for a half hour. you will easily see a christing trying to ram their worship down other's throats. but then you could always just watch fox news spend 4 months SCREAMING that they want to hear "MERRY CHRISTMAS" and nothing else from people in public. How about anytime a gay marriage ammendment comes up...see any christians out there prostesting because it is not how THEIR god feels...i sure do. what about the 'god hates fags' folks protesting soldiers funerals to tell them that their son is dead because god killed him because people in america have abortions. you have not seen any of this? i can make a much bigger more specific list but i find it hard to believe you have not caught drift of just these things right here. you may not be like that, most may not be like that. unfortunately, there are those that do, and they get microphones and tv shows and pass legislation.

reply to post by re22666

i certainly mean no offense, but just go downtown rochester, NY. stand at any bus stop for a half hour. you will easily see a christing trying to ram their worship down other's throats.

Mention the name Jesus sometime in anything other than a curse. you will get the same thing, sometimes with police backing up this so-called 'separation of church and state'.

but then you could always just watch fox news spend 4 months SCREAMING that they want to hear "MERRY CHRISTMAS" and nothing else from people in public.

Ummm, there's no one forcing you to watch faux news, is there? I turned them off when their bias became overpowering and found out CNN had calmed theirs a bit.

How about anytime a gay marriage ammendment comes up...see any christians out there prostesting because it is not how THEIR god feels...i sure do.

OK, this one needs a whole volume of threads to cover it alone. Suffice it to say that those people screaming against gay marriage are no more vicious than those screaming for it.

what about the 'god hates fags' folks protesting soldiers funerals to tell them that their son is dead because god killed him because people in america have abortions.

I would love to meet these people. I almost did. After the Amish school shooting in PA a few years back, I found myself in York, just out of Lancaster, and heard they planned on protesting that funeral. I was one of about 50 or so trucks that called in and took time off to make sure they didn't get to do it.

The cowards called off the protest. I guess you know where I stand on this issue.

you have not seen any of this? i can make a much bigger more specific list but i find it hard to believe you have not caught drift of just these things right here. you may not be like that, most may not be like that. unfortunately, there are those that do, and they get microphones and tv shows and pass legislation.

The only legislation that has been proposed is that of gay marriage, and it has not been passed (MA and CA actually have it now, CA despite grass-roots rejection).

As for the other examples, they mostly boil down to a freedom of speech issue. People have the right to speak their mind on street corners. You are not required to pay them heed. If someone is harassing you on a street corner, you have every right to flag down a cop and ask for help, whether he is talking religion or politics or demanding you paint your cat purple. Harassment is illegal in itself. If faux news wants to go on a rampage about what is said in public, then they can do so. You don't have to listen.

No one is forcing you or your children to pray in schools. They are refusing to allow others to pray, even silently. No one is demanding you sit and watch a preacher on Sunday; the IRS is placing freedom of speech restrictions on them. No one is demanding that you even celebrate Christmas. But the celebration of others is being curtailed because the symbolism might be offensive to someone somewhere.

I stand by my assessment.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


you simply asked people to show examples of people forcing their religion on others. i gave you many. noone forces me to watch fox, noone forces me to go downotown, noone forces me to acknowledge every media outlet that gives the god hates fags people a voice. you are so right.
i am free to hide in my house, no tv, no radio, no magazines or newspapers. then i will not hear these things. unfortunatley, i am free to walk around. do you think i watch fox news out of choice to hear them whine about this? perhaps its the fact that you cannot go anywhere without being bombarded by other people and what they think and what they want to say. it is everywhere. you asked for examples, i gave them to you. if they no longer fit your criteria, then fine. you cannot, however, dismiss my examples out of hand because YOU manage to avoid them. you cannot then also say, you were looking for something else. you wanted examples of people ramming christianity down my throat. i just gave you several that had nothing to do with the choices i made in my free country, yet i see and hear it all the time. it must just be different where you live. that does not make me wrong, that makes me in the wrong place.


apparently, pointing this still offended you since you decided to address me with the anger and hostility of someone in a heated argument. let me guess, you call yourself a christian man. let me guess, you think this is a christian nation. let me guess, you are sick of the secular people ruining it for you and your religion. any of this right? if you would like to get angry and be rude about it, please U2U, i am sure we could have some fun.


[edit on 8/16/2008 by re22666]

reply to post by re22666

apparently, pointing this still offended you since you decided to address me with the anger and hostility of someone in a heated argument.

Whoa, hoss!
If I gave the impression I was offended in any way, please forgive me. I am not offended at all.

My last post was simply a response to why I felt those examples you gave were not restricted to non-Christians. If you took it as hostility that I split the response into segments, I do that simply because I feel it is necessary for a complete response. If you mean my opinions toward the gay marriage issue, those are simply summaries of my opinions, not some hate-filled avalanche of hostility directed toward you. My complete opinion would take several full posts to explain, so maybe I didn't do a very good job of summarizing.

I actually thought you made some good points, and that was why I responded in such detail.

I'm going to stop this discussion for a moment until I make sure you... no, we are OK.

Are we OK to continue?

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by re22666

apparently, pointing this still offended you since you decided to address me with the anger and hostility of someone in a heated argument.

Whoa, hoss!
If I gave the impression I was offended in any way, please forgive me. I am not offended at all.

My last post was simply a response to why I felt those examples you gave were not restricted to non-Christians. If you took it as hostility that I split the response into segments, I do that simply because I feel it is necessary for a complete response. If you mean my opinions toward the gay marriage issue, those are simply summaries of my opinions, not some hate-filled avalanche of hostility directed toward you. My complete opinion would take several full posts to explain, so maybe I didn't do a very good job of summarizing.

I actually thought you made some good points, and that was why I responded in such detail.

I'm going to stop this discussion for a moment until I make sure you... no, we are OK.

Are we OK to continue?

TheRedneck

i am just fine. but read the tone of your post. maybe it comes across in a manner quite far from that in which it was written, i know i have done that. but when every other sentence is

"ummmm, no..."
"ok, not really..."
it has that valley-girl condescending tone that conveys an attitude. but what i infer and you imply may be completely different. so back to the point then, you asked for examples of people trying to force christianity. i gave many.

how about we review the fox news point. i probably could manage to make it through life without ever seeing fox news again but i do not want to disown my friends and family that watch it religiously just yet. my point there was not with the actual news anyway. what i pointed out is that every year they have their "war on christmas" campaign. well do you ever listen to what they are saying? they are saying that unless someone wishes you merry christmas, they are a commie, a traitor, un-american, and wrong. i guess jews are no longer welcome. so i may never hear them go on that rant again but...they are still an example of someone trying to push christianity down our throats because they are advocating that 'merry christmas' be mandatory greetings at holiday time. now whether i watch it or not, that sounds like someone trying to force christianity to me.

reply to post by re22666

No one is demanding that you even celebrate Christmas. But the celebration of others is being curtailed because the symbolism might be offensive to someone somewhere.

see above. someone is trying very hard to force me to celebrate christmas. at least if i work in any way dealing with the public. they feel i should have to wish everyone i see with 'merry christmas.' even, apparently, if we are both jewish. it would just make them feel better. i still see christmas everywhere, even though i keep hearing how it must be forced because it is slipping away. christmas starts earlier than ever and lasts well past new years, yet there is all this crying about how it is infringed upon. that is a whole other argument, the point is, to counteract this 'infringement' therre are those that feel we need to force "merry christmas" as a greeting. hell i celebrate christmas, id never let anyone take that from the children, but i really am not a big fan of anyone advocating for a forced "merry christmas." why? that is forcing christianity on me. all you have to do is watch fox in november and you will see the examples you asked for.

reply to post by re22666

but what i infer and you imply may be completely different. so back to the point then, you asked for examples of people trying to force christianity. i gave many.

I did re-read my post, and I'm sorry, but I really didn't see anything in there as condescending. Ah, well, as you said, things can be misread and intentions can get scrambled in the maze of letters. The main thing is that (I hope and think) you accept my apology.

how about we review the fox news point.

Works for me.

i probably could manage to make it through life without ever seeing fox news again but i do not want to disown my friends and family that watch it religiously just yet. my point there was not with the actual news anyway. what i pointed out is that every year they have their "war on christmas" campaign. well do you ever listen to what they are saying? they are saying that unless someone wishes you merry christmas, they are a commie, a traitor, un-american, and wrong. i guess jews are no longer welcome. so i may never hear them go on that rant again but...they are still an example of someone trying to push christianity down our throats because they are advocating that 'merry christmas' be mandatory greetings at holiday time. now whether i watch it or not, that sounds like someone trying to force christianity to me.

There is another side to this, but I will agree that it is blown way, way out of proportion. It is actually one of the things that made me realize just how over the top they really are. This is the spreading iof hate, and I do not condone it. The other side is this:

There have been reports of stores, mainly larger chains, actually having a policy that prevented employees from saying "Merry Christmas" inside the store. Now, to someone who holds reverence for the holiday (and admittedly with the proper news footage full of opinion) this can be seen as someone trying to 'steal' a religious holiday. That's where these stories come from, and why they are so prevalent every year.

No doubt, this is some sort of localized thing where a large number of complaints have been received at one particular store from some group with a fiery agenda. These groups do exist on both sides of the argument. The store probably did institute a policy to try and placate the customers' apparent desires. Some reporter gets a whiff of the story, sensationalizes it, and gets a lot of people fired up in defense of their religion. And the news gets big ratings.

Sure, I like to hear "Merry Christmas" at Christmastime. I have a friend though who is what i like to term anti-Christian. He apparently has had some pretty bad experiences with the religion. So when I speak to him around that time, I still say "Merry Christmas", but when he replies with something like "Happy Holidays" (or sometimes with some greeting from a holiday I am not even aware of ) I smile and thank him. It's his mouth and his mind powering it, and he has every right to state his good wishes as he sees fit. So do I. Neither of us are disparaging the other's beliefs, we are rather simply stating our own.

So I guess I am agreeing with you on this issue, with the one possible exception that I really wish such a big deal wasn't made about it by the fringe groups in the first place. People should be allowed to express themselves (outside of vulgarity or threats of course) in any choice of words they see fit. Unfortunately, when someone turns a simple thing into a religious war, the people who feel threatened by that faux war tend to use poor judgment based on their misunderstanding of what's really going on. That's one of the downfalls of free speech.

TheRedneck

I dont think God warns people like you think. "If you do not repent and obey I will kill you all" type of warning.

I think the exposure that 911 didnt go down like we were told is a warning and it seems the more our leaders try to get away with, the more they expose themselves.

Says something in the Bible "

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

That means no one or thing can screw it up no matter what power they think they have. You really dont start loving God til ya meet him face to face(experience the spirit) and realize he isnt very much of what you were taught. Coolest dad you will ever have.

reply to post by TheRedneck


well, see that was easy. you asked for an example. i showed you one. and you recognize it.

of course there are two sides to the issue but that issue was not at hand. christians trying to force their point of view was the issue. if, as in your other side story, people are told they cannot say merry christmas. that is not another side. that is people being told to leave their religion at home. that is a completely different issue, which i am sure we would disagree at length about. i will even grant you that it qualifies as the other side, but then it does not invalidate my original point.
you asked for examples,
i gave em to ya.

are we on the same page yet?

no need to appologize for anything. it was not your intent, and i appologize for assuming it so. it is just the way things read when sentencese are full of thins like ummm...okay..... stuff like that starts to sound a certain way in your head when you think you are dealing with a rational thinking adult. i am guilty of it. i hope this then is nothnig more than the exchange of ideas and not a personally hateful exchange. you did not address my guesses though, and that is fine, that is your life to keep to yourself. however, i was not trying to be anti-christian as your friend, and i bet i have more anti-christian in my bones than he does, but i was merely addressing your desire to be supplied with examples of christianity being shoved down a throat. i hope we now agree that we have at least one.

reply to post by re22666
Oh, I recognize your examples, but none of them are what I would consider 'legal force'. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding began; I guess I could have worded that better.

The examples I gave in the post that started this subject was intended to show how legally Christians are held to standards that are not applied across the board. Denial of private, silent prayer, restrictions on a preacher's speech, these are restrictions imposed by the government, under penalty of law.

You do see the difference, right? When the guy is telling you about Jesus on the street corner (which I know is annoying, btw ), you are under no legal requirement to listen to him. When a student is told she will be arrested or banned from graduation, etc., for mentioning God in her valedictorian speech, in a casual way even, that is legal duress. And that is what I am complaining about.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by re22666
Oh, I recognize your examples, but none of them are what I would consider 'legal force'. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding began; I guess I could have worded that better.

The examples I gave in the post that started this subject was intended to show how legally Christians are held to standards that are not applied across the board. Denial of private, silent prayer, restrictions on a preacher's speech, these are restrictions imposed by the government, under penalty of law.

You do see the difference, right? When the guy is telling you about Jesus on the street corner (which I know is annoying, btw

), you are under no legal requirement to listen to him. When a student is told she will be arrested or banned from graduation, etc., for mentioning God in her valedictorian speech, in a casual way even, that is legal duress. And that is what I am complaining about.

TheRedneck

it is a completely different argument when you add that one word in. legally forced is a whole other can of worms. and you have a point, as far as the laws go, the christian gets the rough end of the stick.
unfortunately, as far as the laws go, you are to stop at yellow lights, completely stop at stop signs, never drink and drive to the point above the legal allowable limit which here is 2 beers an hour, the law says you cant have controlled substances without proper liscences. the law also says things about how you start wars, how the president is elected, how this country works. now go outside.
see anyone rolling through stop signs?
anyone speeding up at yellow lights?
how about smoking pot?
anyone carrying on an illegal war or two?
how about illegally occupying the office of the president of U.S.

i see these things all day long so it is nice that they are illegal on paper but reality is a much different world. so i will agree that technically, you add that word and you have me all the way around. unfortunately, if you really want to get real, the real world works in spite of its laws, not in conjunction with them. so it becomes moot doesnt it? so christians are supposed to 'legally' shut up. yet they run all the news channels and cry about christmas from every street corner, on every channel, every where you turn. nice that they cannot legally force that on me. too bad i cannot legally force them away from me and must be inundated daily by christian propoganda that, if your argument is correct, is apparently being carried out by criminals.
man, first the catholics are all touching lil boys
now all christians are illegally promoting christmas
hmmmm im starting to think these religions may not be as 'on the up and up' as one might wish me to.

btw
merry christmas.

just getting it out of the way before shaun hannity "illegaly" makes me spend 4 months hiding from the media so that i am not 'illegally' forced to listen to that crap.

reply to post by re22666
Wow, you do have a tendency to place a lot of arguments into a post.

Yes, I should have used that word from the start. But at least we have it inserted now. You gave 5 examples of laws being broken. The first two, running a stop sign and a yellow light, are very minor infractions. Smoking pot shouldn't even be illegal, but of course it is, and is impossible to thoroughly enforce. A war cannot be illegal by definition; there is no law in war, which is why war is such a bad thing. And I do not agree that Bush is illegally President. Moronically, despicably, evilly even, but not illegally.

The difference is that none of the legal violations you pointed out are enforced, rendering their illegal status null and void. On the other hand, the examples I pointed out all have occurred. The IRS investigates any complaints of a preacher who uses his pulpit to state political values, with the aim of removing the tax-exempt status of his church. This can easily mean he is censored from sensitive subjects. For example, if a preacher states that abortion is 'wrong' (which is his right to do), an argument can be made that he is therefore supporting one particular candidate or party that agrees with his position and his speech is political.

Examples like this have and do occur.

There are numerous examples of children in schools being openly discriminated against. I remember one report about a boy who had an assignment to write an essay about "Who I admire most". The subject could be alive or dead, but had to be a real person, as in not Yogi Bear. The child wrote his essay about Jesus. He was given a '0' on his assignment, for stated reason that "Jesus was not real".

These are legally-enforced discriminations. Now I turn to your complaints, again from a legal aspect.

The person on the street corner is annoying. However, he does have the right to speak his mind freely. Just as you have the right to speak yours. This is the only fair way things can be, because if you prevent him from speaking his mind, then by all fairness, he could prevent you from speaking yours. The issue of religion has nothing to do with this argument; it is a freedom of speech issue. You have just as much right to stand on that same street corner and state there is no God as he does to state there is.

As for Fox News, I am truly sorry to hear your problem on it. I agree with you that they are completely biased, and yes, Hannity seems to be their main star right now. But you do have that freedom to not watch them. If your family is forcing you to do so, then it is your family who is violating you, not Fox News. As an example, I despise watching 'That 70s Show'. But if someone in my family is taking control of the remote and watching it despite my feelings, it is not the producers of the show that I should be angry with.

As for the Merry Christmas thingy, simply exercise your rights to say your greetings in the way you want to. Sean Hannity does not carry the power of legal enforcement with him, only the power of the media. You cannot be forced to say any combination of words, and should you be so forced, I would be the first in line to fight for you. I wonder, though, would you fight for me, should my rights be violated, or would you stand and smile and say "Christians deserve it"? I wonder...

It has been said that freedom has a cost. This is true. Freedom requires attention to what is prohibited and what is public opinion. The former canbe a violation of freedom; the latter cannot, unless of course, it carries the weight of law. Then it becomes the former.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by re22666
Wow, you do have a tendency to place a lot of arguments into a post.

Yes, I should have used that word from the start. But at least we have it inserted now. You gave 5 examples of laws being broken. The first two, running a stop sign and a yellow light, are very minor infractions. Smoking pot shouldn't even be illegal, but of course it is, and is impossible to thoroughly enforce. A war cannot be illegal by definition; there is no law in war, which is why war is such a bad thing. And I do not agree that Bush is illegally President. Moronically, despicably, evilly even, but not illegally.

The difference is that none of the legal violations you pointed out are enforced, rendering their illegal status null and void. On the other hand, the examples I pointed out all have occurred. The IRS investigates any complaints of a preacher who uses his pulpit to state political values, with the aim of removing the tax-exempt status of his church. This can easily mean he is censored from sensitive subjects. For example, if a preacher states that abortion is 'wrong' (which is his right to do), an argument can be made that he is therefore supporting one particular candidate or party that agrees with his position and his speech is political.

whoa, wait a minute. ok so you are saying that these laws do not matter because they are not enforced?

how many preachers were arrested last year for what they said at the pulpit?
how many people were arrested for posession of pot?