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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 12:58 PM by euclid
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The Founding Fathers were Diests not Christians..... they did separate church and state. The government is bound by law to have no influence
what-so-ever with religion. Those were the points in my post....
Mr. President
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give
me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are
persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship,
that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive
authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an
Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each
respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere
satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to
his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your
religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
source
My posts do not prove your points they are diametrically opposed to them. You fail to understand what a deist is how they differ dramatically from a
christian. Jeffersons comparision of "some" of what jesus said to "diamonds in a dungheap" should indicate to you the difference.... none of them
took the bible in toto as the complete word of god.
-Euclid
Originally posted by heliosprime
reply to post by euclid
Thank you for taking the time to prove my point. The founding fathers were true christians who rejected the idiocy of papal dogma, as jefferson does
state. In fact I must agree that it is unclear as to if 'paul" was even a true apostle.
The founders were closer to true "christians" than any TV crook or "megachurch" today. They understood the corruption of the papal priest and
other fakers. The "amendment" only states congress shall make no law............
America had enjoyed tremendous blessings from God for 200 years. The slowly, removed God from schools, courthouses, forced mass murder on millions
(ROE V Wade), allowed the vilness of clinton to remain in office, allowed the media to push secular humanisim and multicultualisim on our youth while
taking away God................
As far back as Daniel 9:11 he warned Israel to seek his blessings, america (modern Israel) has turned away, is following false Gods, even elevated
vile islam to "equal" status with the true God. Catholic's worship false gods and idols.
For 200 years america followed the commandments, did God's will, and were Blessed among nations. Now too many americans have turned their backs on
God's will and the curses are coming.............
America has changed to a worship of convienience "what feels good" a religion that doesn't make them feel guilty or says dont worry you won't be
here (rapture BS).............
The idea of seperation of church and state is a "marxist" idea to seperate america from freedom...............
[edit on 14-8-2008 by heliosprime]
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 01:10 PM by TheRedneck
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reply to post by euclid
Er, I can only assume he doesn't know what a 'Deist' is, because I honestly do not know your definition of one. Could you enlighten me?
The clips you have presented appear to have a Christian bias, but a bias against established Christian theology (or any established theology
for that matter). They do not prove that the founding fathers were not Christians, but that they did not wish their views on religion to be perverted
by governmental intervention. Remember that they had obtained freedom from England, which at the time was theocratic in the established Christian
dogma.
The OP is a good representation of this thinking. I am proudly Christian, but I do not agree with his posts overall. Should his beliefs be placed into
an official church via governmental decree, I would be a heretic, even though we do share the label 'Christian'. That label seems to cover a very
wide span of beliefs.
TheRedneck
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 02:50 PM by euclid
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reply to post by TheRedneck
Deism is defined as:
Deism is the belief that a supreme god exists and created the physical universe, but does not intervene in its normal operation. It is
related to a religious philosophy and movement that claims to derive the existence and nature of God from reason. It takes no position
on what God may do outside the universe. That is in contrast to fideism which is found in many forms of Christianity, Islamic and Judaic
teachings, which hold that religion relies on revelation in sacred scriptures or the testimony of other people as well as reasoning.
Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human
life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations
made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability
to reason.
source
I hope that clears up some of the differences between a deist and a christian. Though I know from experience it may not; I went to a christian school
until 8th grade and I do realize that it is difficult, for every christian I have ever spoken with, to get out of the brainwashed perspective that the
Founding Fathers were christians.... they were not. Most of them were Freemasons. I am a Freemason so I know full well what they believed because I
took the same Oath that Washington took. They believed in a Supreme Being; they also believed that everyone should be able to practice their religion
of choice and that any persons belief in a Supreme Being would be free from government support or sanction. The whole concept of freedom of, and from,
religion is a Masonic ideal.
All you need to do is READ WHAT THEY WROTE ABOUT THE SUBJECT!!!!! They wrote in simple english for gods sake!!!!! Is everyone so dumbed down now a
days that they can't understand proper english anymore??????!!!! Just read what Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, & Paine said about religion.... most of
it is available on line. 
-Euclid
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 03:02 PM by euclid
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reply to post by euclid
Further:
We learn that Benjamin Franklin, for example, believed primarily in a God of reason but had serious doubts about the divinity of Jesus -- though
he strongly subscribed to the moral ideas Jesus preached. Jefferson similarly saw Jesus as a "reformer and moral exemplar" and took a pair of
scissors to his Bible to cut away all the parts -- miracles and supernatural interventions -- that offended his intellectual sensibilities.
Washington's religious affiliation, on the other hand, is notoriously ambiguous. Raised as an Anglican, Washington attended church, sometimes
regularly. He served as churchwarden, observed fast days and vigorously promoted religion among the soldiers of the Continental Army. Yet he was never
confirmed, avoided communion and during his lingering death never prayed nor asked for a clergyman. When he spoke or wrote of God, he favored words
with decidedly deist and Masonic connotations: "Providence," "the Deity" and "the Grand Architect." Holmes concludes that Washington was a deist
primarily concerned with morality and order, one who favored religion because of the useful role it played in society.
source
There is no question Jefferson rejected the Bible as divine revelation and rejected the divinity of Jesus. In the Declaration of Independence
Jefferson's appeal was to the God of the Deist, "Nature's God," not specifically to the God of Christianity
source
You can read more of Jefferson and all his thoughts here
-Euclid
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 03:28 PM by euclid
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reply to post by euclid
And Thomas Paines book The Age of Reason was out-right promoting deism:
The Age of Reason: Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology, a deistic treatise written by eighteenth-century British radical and
American revolutionary Thomas Paine, critiques institutionalized religion and challenges the inerrancy of the Bible.
source
You can read the Age of Reason online here.
-Euclid
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 04:10 PM by re22666
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Originally posted by bruxfain
Its funny you say that because on one of Satan's plots involved framing God's men as terrorists. Its also funny because when the frame up plan
failed all of hell tried to storm David's house. All that happened back in November 2005. None of it worked though. Ever since then all the plots set
against not only the Son, but also the Father, yeah there are two of them, have failed.
Its fun to read threads discussing prophecy however; some of you really want to understand it. I always tell people that time is cyclical and the
stories of the bible are told to illustrate this basic concept. What was destroyed - what seems like - a long time ago, was only 37 years ago however,
will one day come back together and as a matter of fact it has. The cross is fully assembled and the Son will arrive in about 3 weeks, more like 18
days. So, we'll be able to wrap up this war soon. I know you are all happy to hear that.
As it is right now, the demons got their backs to a wall and are extremely desperate. In a way they're not even trying anymore and just committing
suicide to avoid the embarassment of the absolute rout they've experienced over the last 33 months.
Well you guys continue your debate.
wow! all i can say is wow. what are you on and where can i get it? how do you know about Satan's plot to frame god? are you working for him? do you
have documents? would FOIA apply to hell? what are you talking about happening only 37 years ago? what happens in two weeks when jesus doesnt show up?
what cross is assembled? where is it? what planet are you posting from?
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 04:13 PM by re22666
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Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Ok, I'm all for getting on the same page with you.
Men have absolutely used the name of God to commit more evil than not.
What that has to do with God is beyond me though.
im sorry what?
you do not understand what killing in god's name has to do with god? is that your actual response. that you know it is true, god is invoked in murder
and war, but you do not see how that relates to god? hmmmm. ill let you work on it for a lil. see if you can't figure it out.
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reply posted on 14-8-2008 @ 06:01 PM by riggs2099
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So GOD is warning america and saying screw the rest of the world? Why would he/she/it only warn America and not do anything else for the rest of the
nations. Or is GOD American. Personally I could care less. I just wanted in on the fun  . The Op is obviously ranting insanely and trying thier best
to save the world(as they think). Crazy as this original statements are, i believe they are trying to do something good, either that or they are here
to troll.
[edit on 14-8-2008 by riggs2099]
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 10:39 AM by heliosprime
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Originally posted by riggs2099
So GOD is warning america and saying screw the rest of the world? Why would he/she/it only warn America and not do anything else for the rest of the
nations. Or is GOD American. Personally I could care less. I just wanted in on the fun . The Op is obviously ranting insanely and trying thier best
to save the world(as they think). Crazy as this original statements are, i believe they are trying to do something good, either that or they are here
to troll.
[edit on 14-8-2008 by riggs2099]
AHHH...I am not trying to save either america nor the world, nor is God. At issue is that america, england, ireland, scotland, austrailia, canada,
new zealand are all part of the lost tribes of Israel. Many parts of europe also...........
These peoples have a special relationship with God that include promises to Abraham and Issac. As each abandons the will of God and keeping his
commandments, God withdraws his blessings and soon will bring on his curses................and in some places has brought forth his curses....
America as a superpower is lost.....witness the Georgia thingy........america has lost it will to defend against the evil empire.....
That loss of will is directly proportional to the rise of secular humanisim and the willful viotation of the commandments......
The rewritting of history in america is another symptom, denying the christian root of the founders is all part of turning away from God. Those who
post here denying americas once proud founding are blind and ignorant of truth. They willingly seek to destroy the faith of our fathers through
twisted lies.............
I call on all who post here to repent of your ways, seek God and Jesus so you can know the truth and escape the horror to come all to soon. As your
bodies burn and melt at that instant you will know the truth and error in your ways. I pray it will not come to late for your very souls. Yet for
many it is already too late.........
God Bless............
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 11:04 AM by re22666
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Originally posted by heliosprime
AHHH...I am not trying to save either america nor the world, nor is God. At issue is that america, england, ireland, scotland, austrailia, canada,
new zealand are all part of the lost tribes of Israel. Many parts of europe also...........
These peoples have a special relationship with God that include promises to Abraham and Issac. As each abandons the will of God and keeping his
commandments, God withdraws his blessings and soon will bring on his curses................and in some places has brought forth his curses....
America as a superpower is lost.....witness the Georgia thingy........america has lost it will to defend against the evil empire.....
That loss of will is directly proportional to the rise of secular humanisim and the willful viotation of the commandments......
The rewritting of history in america is another symptom, denying the christian root of the founders is all part of turning away from God. Those who
post here denying americas once proud founding are blind and ignorant of truth. They willingly seek to destroy the faith of our fathers through
twisted lies.............
I call on all who post here to repent of your ways, seek God and Jesus so you can know the truth and escape the horror to come all to soon. As your
bodies burn and melt at that instant you will know the truth and error in your ways. I pray it will not come to late for your very souls. Yet for
many it is already too late.........
God Bless............
i really cannot get all excited about a god that selectively loves some humans and not others in a 'special relationship' kind of way; especially if
when we dont follow his rules, he curses us? what a petty little b$%#@. could you please elaborate on just how exactly you delineate who is and who is
not part of the lost tribes of israel, and then how it makes sense that america, as wicked as we may be, are so bad in those leagues.
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 11:47 AM by mapsurfer_
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Hmm... I'm wondering how you might determine if God is blessing or cursing a nation? Would you say that the 9/11 attack on the WTC is God's curse,
or simple the work of terrorists? If hypothetically a nuke was detonated in DC or NY... would that be God's curse?
Along these lines, I love the term insurance company apply to disasters such as floods, tornado and the like.... that is "Act of God" you gotta
love it. The flood came and washed away my house.... oh that was an Act of God. I think not.. Just an unfortunate circumstance.
Do you consider national or individual prosperity to be a blessing from God? If so, they why are their filthy rich undeserving arsehole and pee-ons
who work for em. The arsehole is atheist and the pee-on is a God fearing, honest person. Where is the blessing in that? It's really an injustice
by my standards, however It would ignorant to think that God cares about our wealth. I'm just a little confused as to how a blessing or curse from
God
might manifest. I just checked, and there are no famine or hords of locusts.
I do have faith that God exists, and that prayers do get answered but....
for anyone to post what God will or wont do, is just a plain waste of bandwidth.
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 06:01 PM by euclid
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reply to post by heliosprime
The Founding Fathers were deist not christians. If you read what they wrote you would realize that fact.
-Euclid
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 10:02 PM by TheRedneck
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reply to post by euclid
Thank you for the explanations.
Deism pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular thread. While I do believe that God will intervene if asked, I do not think He shoves his
way into our affairs. In that sense, I have to admit that while I vehemently disagree with the OP's statements of anger and hatred, I do see how 9-11
might have been somehow averted IF enough people had prayed for that intervention. The problem there is that no one knew it was going to happen. I
definitely do NOT think it happened because God wanted it to.
I'm also confused about one other thing: you mentioned that the FreeMasons hold to Deism and not to Christianity. This confuses me because I have a
friend who recently (a few years ago) joined, and yet who claims to be Christian. I'm wondering, who's right here?
TheRedneck
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 10:52 PM by re22666
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by euclid
Thank you for the explanations.
Deism pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular thread. While I do believe that God will intervene if asked, I do not think He shoves his
way into our affairs. In that sense, I have to admit that while I vehemently disagree with the OP's statements of anger and hatred, I do see how 9-11
might have been somehow averted IF enough people had prayed for that intervention. The problem there is that no one knew it was going to happen. I
definitely do NOT think it happened because God wanted it to.
I'm also confused about one other thing: you mentioned that the FreeMasons hold to Deism and not to Christianity. This confuses me because I have a
friend who recently (a few years ago) joined, and yet who claims to be Christian. I'm wondering, who's right here?
TheRedneck
to be a freemason, you have to believe in a higher power. that is it.
be christian, or something else, as long as you have one.
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reply posted on 15-8-2008 @ 10:55 PM by TheRedneck
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reply to post by re22666
That's what my friend says, but it sounded like Euclid was saying you couldn't be a FreeMason and a devout Christian. Maybe I misunderstood him?
TheRedneck
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reply posted on 16-8-2008 @ 01:38 AM by euclid
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Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by euclid
Thank you for the explanations.
Deism pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular thread. While I do believe that God will intervene if asked, I do not think He shoves his
way into our affairs. In that sense, I have to admit that while I vehemently disagree with the OP's statements of anger and hatred, I do see how 9-11
might have been somehow averted IF enough people had prayed for that intervention. The problem there is that no one knew it was going to happen. I
definitely do NOT think it happened because God wanted it to.
I'm also confused about one other thing: you mentioned that the FreeMasons hold to Deism and not to Christianity. This confuses me because I have a
friend who recently (a few years ago) joined, and yet who claims to be Christian. I'm wondering, who's right here?
TheRedneck
All that is necessary to become a freemason is to believe in a Supreme Being. Those that become Masons and study the symbols, allegories, and
metphores may become deist. Deism, as a philosophy, is at the core of being a Freemason; which is why to be one you need to believe in a Supreme
Being. The Founding Fathers were deist to begin with though; that was my original point.
-Euclid
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reply posted on 16-8-2008 @ 01:43 AM by ParaFreaky
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WHOA! What an explosion of BS! I had to take time to fathom, just how, how, prejudice and unkind this thread is!
Shouldn't of even bothered to post! And to be sure this reply is on topic, THERE IS NO GOD! But I'm not gonna make people believe me!
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reply posted on 16-8-2008 @ 03:15 AM by euclid
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reply to post by ParaFreaky
There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of god. Your belief that there is no god is just as much faith as a fanatical muslims belief in
allah and the 70 virgins he'll get when he kills infidels and him self in the process.
-Euclid
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reply posted on 16-8-2008 @ 03:19 AM by ParaFreaky
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reply to post by euclid
I'm sure it is. People who believe in 2012, aliens, gods, whatever. They're guess is as good as anybody's. What I DON'T like is when people try to
prove others wrong. We know nothing of how things work as of now.
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reply posted on 16-8-2008 @ 03:33 AM by scorand
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reply to post by heliosprime
and certian christian groups and some gov officials want the christian religious ideal forced on everyone here.. thats why we have groups like the
phelps harping that everyone else is wrong and goin to hell, why we have these neo con/nazis in charge.. and the general community doesnt want to
offer equal rights to gay couples..need i go on???
sorry couldnt resist
[edit on 16-8-2008 by scorand]
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