Conspiracy against God, page 1

reply to post by Ichabod

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The greatest feat the devil achieved was to convince us he didn't exist. Period.

I openly admit, I love God. I don't know why, but I do. He is there, guiding us. Proof or none. Per se, I am not 'religious', but try to have a deeper connection with God in the world around us.

If you just think of what you ask, he will give, if ways different than you and me can perceive.

I am not trying to be a preacher or priest, but I am a follower of God first, then the Church.

I will get complaints telling I am ignorant of the world around me. And how the countless efforts to tell me that there is no evidence that God exists, but a pose a question to all those who say that God does not exist..

What evidence there isn't a God?

Some one will answer this one: War, death, famine.... etc..

But we MAKE these choices.
People say, but if God loves you, why does he have these horrible things happen?
God loves us so much that he lets us have the freedom of making our own choices. Even the choice whether you love Him or not.


God lets us find out on our own, but eventually, the believers will join him in his Kingdom

reply to post by Alora

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I find it interesting that you're most annoyed with the 'hypocrites' who follow God. Sounds just like Jesus. I take it you have direct experience with this hypocrisy impacting you directly. Or are the masters of public opinion delivering this assessment to your doorstep?

Although at the end, you say that for you, God doesn't exist.

What does that last sentence mean? Does he exist but you chose to ignore him? He exists but he has no influence in your life and you don't chose to ignore him? Or does it mean you categorically assert that he doesn't exist?

reply to post by mattguy404

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Would this be your response to God if you were in his presence after your death? Would you actually have the stones to say, "Hey God, you didn't give me enough reasons to trust and believe you. Sorry I spit in your face all these years but I'm sure you're big enough to get over it."

I doubt it. I think you should read God's reply to Job at the end of the book of Job. Maybe that would sober you up a bit.

reply to post by xmotex

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Well, the word 'conspiracy' might or might not imply secrecy. It's a plot. I agree that God knows all so that conspiring against him in secrecy is futile. And if you assume that we are the object, then I could have just as easily said, "Conspiracy against us to make us hate God" since we're the losers in all this. Of course that wouldn't have gotten into the little subject line here.

I do appreciate your response though, at least you solidly admitted that you're on the fence about God. If you do meet him after death, what exactly are you going to say to him?

Originally posted by Ichabod
reply to post by Alora

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I find it interesting that you're most annoyed with the 'hypocrites' who follow God. Sounds just like Jesus. I take it you have direct experience with this hypocrisy impacting you directly. Or are the masters of public opinion delivering this assessment to your doorstep?

Although at the end, you say that for you, God doesn't exist.

What does that last sentence mean? Does he exist but you chose to ignore him? He exists but he has no influence in your life and you don't chose to ignore him? Or does it mean you categorically assert that he doesn't exist?

Great questions that I'm happy to answer.

Yes, I have direct experience with Christian hypocrisy. The "masters of public opinion" are those I tend to rebel against. This hasn't always served me well, lol, but it is my nature. If the group says to go North, I instinctively go West.

I was raised as a christian, baptized twice (give 'em credit for not giving up on me), but in the end I just couldn't agree with the religion, nor could I understand why so many people believed that one book is the word of God simply because the book states that it is. I don't think there is anything wrong with being gay, and I literally laughed out loud when my Southern Baptist family told me women should be subservient to men and men are the true head of the household. That is definitely not in my nature.

So I walked away.

"Or does it mean you categorically assert that he doesn't exist?"

He very simply does not exist for me.

There are so very many beliefs and religions out there. Some I actually agree with, and some I don't. I wholeheartedly believe in your right to follow whatever religion you want to, I just wish that some (there's that word again) Christians would extend me the same favor.

reply to post by Ichabod

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As a Christian-raised child, turned agnostic, I'm more familiar with the bible than I desire to be, and I was a little befuddled to see you reference the story of Job. If I am remembering correctly, the conversation between Job and God is not one that portrays God as someone who is loving and benevolent (which is why I'm assuming that you are using it as an example of why someone shouldn't simply assume that God will forgive them upon death for not believing in him???) God basically tells Job that HE is all-powerful and Job is nothing. He reminds Job that he is King of the world, and belittles Job into a fearful and humble state. He tells Job that he is not worthy to question the all-creating God and he should be ashamed of even questioning his faith. He tells Job that he is ignorant and knows nothing. He then requires Job and his friends to repent by giving sacrificial offerings and praying for forgiveness.

Oh, and of course after it's all said and done - Job is forgiven and becomes rich....not much different than today's evangelists...right?

Please understand...I am not mocking your faith. I am simply disgusted with religion using scare tactics to try to bring more believers into the church. If God's wrath and his ability to destroy me is the only reason to believe, I'd rather go to hell....which, in my mind doesn't really exist.

Either way, thanks for the post. I'm interested to see the views of others.

reply to post by rocknroll

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Well, not all Jews hated or hate Jesus - that is for sure. Jesus was a Jew. All of the disciples were Jewish, Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was Jewish, many of my believing friends are Jewish. We can even look forward to a time when the Jews embrace Jesus.

So, I'm not going to jump on the Jewish conspiracy bandwagon. My experience with Jews is that they are some of the most upstanding people in society. I love the Jews and everything Jewish!

But lets be serious. Jesus was certainly a political problem for the Jews. When Nicodemus, a teacher and respected elder of the Jews came to Jesus, he said that they knew that he was sent from God. From this and other interactions documented in the bible we can see that the leaders certainly had problems with Jesus. For one thing, they were worried that everyone would follow him. Where would that leave them? In this, they are absolutely no different than the rest of us - always worried about power and position.

Nope - I stand by what I said. I think there is a concerted attack on God (the father) to put hate out there for him.

What about you - do you love God or hate him?

reply to post by Alora

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(BTW - I'm purposely not cutting and pasting. I've been using email and chat since 1983 unlike most of the folks here so I've paid my dues to cut 'n paste. You'll have to scroll if it bothers you - that's my little rebellion.)

I have to admit that I've only observed limited hypocrisy. On the topic of marriage, I'd say the bible teaches mutual submissiveness rather than subservience. After all, we're supposed to be out for each other's best interests, right? I think that 'head of the household' stuff comes from the original Hebrew for 'father' which in the ancient language is a bull's head followed by a floorplan - Head of the house. Nevertheless, the bible does say that Eve was provided to man because God determined that his loneliness was no good. He even looked at all the other animals to see if here might already be an appropriate companion and came up dry.

Plenty of other venues for discussing homosexuality. I'm fairly sure everyone knows the bible's teaching on it. I would simply say that if people are looking for a God who accepts every kind of behavior as righteous, then I would like to know how they plan on discussing their particular one with God.

Thanks for the honesty - I place you squarely in the God doesn't exist category and assume you haven't been swayed by the masters of public opinion but have formed this opinion on your own.

reply to post by optimistic skeptic

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(see my rebellion against cut 'n paste above to Alora)

The reference to read Job was to humble him. If you remember, Job was rather concerned about preserving his reputation as a righteous individual against the attacks of his 'so-called' friends. None are righteous before God, you probably know that if you're well-acquainted with the bible. So, God took Job down a couple of pegs. You seem to think this is unfair. Is that why you turned away from God, because you read parts of the bible in which you disagree with God's behavior? You judged God? That would be quite interesting indeed.

And I suppose you have the stones to have that conversation with the almighty when you're sitting in front of him also, right?

reply to post by Daniem

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Well, atoms don't reveal themselves to you but you certainly have a use for them don't you? Does everything have to reveal itself to your massive intellect for you to be able to use it? What rubbish!

I find your tone rather belligerent so I wonder if I've stumbled on to a true God hater. When did you start hating God? Do you remember a time when you didn't?

reply to post by Ichabod

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Your assumption is quite common. Most can't understand why I would turn against God after having the devout Christian upbringing that I did. However, my decision to label myself as "agnostic" (although I'm not an advocate of labels in general, these discussions often call for it), after about 10 years of researching my questions that could never be answered as I was growing up in the church.

I also got my undergraduate degree in biology, so my education of evolution and geology may have somewhat contributed to my change (I realize that's a totally different discussion, so we don't have to go there ) Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that for me personally, the bible was never meant to be taken literally. It is a book of moral tales and and literary beauty (in most books.)

As a 5-year old I often asked questions about how certain stories in the bible could be true (i.e. Noah's ark, Jonah and the Whale, "burning bushes," Virgin birth, the "location" of heaven, etc.) These are typical childhood questions. However, the standard replies of, "because it says so in the bible," or "you just have to have faith," were never good enough for me, as they were for my siblings. I also couldn't understand how a loving, merciful God could emit such wrath on his own creations (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc.)

So, I entered my college years with these nagging questions, and paired with science and the general lack of evidence to prove God exists, I arrived at the conclusion that there's no proof He exists, but I can't deny the possibility that He may exist (hence, the "agnostic" label.)

To answer your question, I am content with the belief that if God exists and he created me (along with my "scientific" mind that makes me perhaps more skeptical of things I cannot see) then he will love me in spite of my faults.

I thank you for your peaceful discussion of this topic.

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