Survival Ammo - armor piercing?

reply to post by Illahee
That's why the military also issues the inserts for it.

Only 3/8" plates will stop rifle rounds. 1/4" and the class three fail miserably. In addition class three fabric must be worn against the skin. At close range it is a wash out. At distance if the plates are exterior the class 3 can catch part of the rounds. Pictures from the plate test conclude failure against even standard ball at urban distances.

reply to post by Illahee
And if you shoot the plates with a large enough caliber, you'll still break bones or at least cause enough pain to incapacitate.

The op has bad advice for survival
unless your idea of survival is becoming a terrorist

you want to get some good hunting rounds

My suggestion is to buy federal premier grade ammo

or better yet reload them yourself if you know how to do it
I use Federal Ammo and have had good success with it

reply to post by solo1
Have you ever tried Hornady SST's? I have tried all others in my Savage 111 30-06 and they give me the best groups at any range.

Ok, are you ready for it? ALL RIFLES ROUNDS ARE ARMOR PIERCING (with the .22LR being the exception). They will penetrate everything except ceramic body armor. Please visit theboxotruth.com to see for yourself.

If you are thinking there is going to be a situation where you will need "armor piercing" rounds, you'd be better off with a bunch of aluminum and steel wool. Why, you ask? Ah, if you don't already know......

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Ok, are you ready for it? ALL RIFLES ROUNDS ARE ARMOR PIERCING (with the .22LR being the exception). They will penetrate everything except ceramic body armor. Please visit theboxotruth.com to see for yourself.

If you are thinking there is going to be a situation where you will need "armor piercing" rounds, you'd be better off with a bunch of aluminum and steel wool. Why, you ask? Ah, if you don't already know......

Up to a point. It all depends on angle, velocity, and thickness of the armor. A 30-06 will go through a 12 inch tree but will not have the power to do more than knock the target down upon exiting.

The bottom line that I think we can all agree on is that
1. Armor piercing rounds are not good for hunting
and
2. Do not try and take on an army by your self; even if you have armor piercing bullets.


Check out this article
Sniping vs. Hunting

It is a great article to keep in mind for all of you survivalists that have never hunted

reply to post by irongunner


Most military armor piercing bullets use tungsten as a core as opposed to lead. They are rated against 1 inch of armor plate at fixed distance. Armor plate is harder to penetrate than standard steel.

Most lead core aka ball rifle ammuntion will penetrate an inch or more of standard steel at under 100 yards. Penetration power is determined by muzzle energy, caliber diameter and bullet weight. Tungsten is both harder and denser than lead.

To all readers-

It really does not matter what type or how much body armor is
worn, If you load a AP 168 Grain in a 300 weatherby, or larger
fired at 3500 ft. per sec or faster- You will be able to penatrate
2.5 inches of plate steel. In Most situations this should be good
enough. I would recommend any of the slower burning powders
for this load, and for the mag.riffles

Re-Loader

reply to post by crgintx


As a rule over-penetration is a bad thing. That is what you get with a "armor piercing" round. I realy dont care about armor piercing rounds or trying to defeat modern insert body armor... Do you know what it is like to get shot in the insert plate? It hurts...alot, and it burns the expanding ceramic and dispersing energy create alot of heat, we are talking about the potential for 2nd degree burns. so, if you do have a NATO rifle or and AK/SKS hitting a soldier with a hunting round will put them out of the fight. Also, do you know what the US battle drill is for a sniper attack? well initialy you win because soldiers run for cover, but then you lose when they call in fire or drones or air support or any combination of those and other responses.
If I wanted to go to ground and survive a hostile invasion I think I would worry about food and avoiding direct actions against the invading force.
If it is an EOS/EOH event and we are talking about survival; well then use lead core bullets first and anything that will fly straight enough to hit your game after that.

I thought I would address the urban myth of teflon coated bullets. In the 1960s Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator), began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets, such as windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, often become deformed and ineffective after striking hard targets, especially when fired at handgun velocities.

After some experimentation with steel rounds, the officers settled on a brass core with a 'lubricating' jacket of Teflon. Although a myth persists that the Teflon is there to either penetrate "bullet-proof" vests more effectively, or protect the bore of the firearm that fires it, Dr. Kopsch himself has testified that the Teflon actually reduces these bullets' penetration in Kevlar, and is only there to reduce the likelihood of ricochets. (Kopsch, Turcus, & Ward struck upon the idea of the Teflon coating after finding out that the manufacturers of canes impregnate the plastic tips of their canes with a Teflon compound; under pressure, the Teflon actually helps the bullet to "stick" momentarily, and it is this characteristic that reduces the chances of a ricochet off of the glass or metal surfaces of an automobile). The inventors named the round the 'KTW Bullet,' after their initials.

In 1982, the NBC TV network ran a special on the bullets and argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Gun control organizations in the US labelled Teflon-coated bullets "cop killers", as 'KTW'-derived bullets were often capable of penetrating the Kevlar bullet-resistant vests worn by American police. Due to a popular misconception, possibly caused by the fact that a "Teflon bullet" sounds more remarkable than a "brass bullet," many people believed that the Teflon coating was responsible for the increased penetration, despite it being only a jacket for the brass penetrator.

No law enforcement personnel have yet been killed by this type of armor piercing round when wearing appropriate body armor, making the nickname “cop killer” somewhat misleading. In fact, some members of law enforcement community argue that the publicity surrounding the use of body armor by police has encouraged criminals to aim at the head and other body parts unprotected by the armor. The controversy surrounding Teflon-coating can be seen as an episode of moral panic, and yet another source of contention between gun-control and gun-rights activists. These bullets were outlawed for civilian sale that same year through legislation by Rep. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.).


Popular culture has picked up on the exaggerated accounts surrounding KTW ammunition, and references to "teflon coated" or "cop killer" bullets are numerous. In Lethal Weapon 3, Mel Gibson's character uses "cop killer" bullets from a submachine gun to shoot through the thick blade of a bulldozer, while in Ronin, Robert de Niro's character is wounded when a bullet "sprayed...with teflon" penetrates his body armor. In the videogame Syphon Filter 3 the K3G4 submachine gun fires "teflon covered bullets" to penetrate flack jackets according to the in-game data. Enemies using these weapons hurt the player significantly more than normal enemies.

Basically urban myth will only a grain of truth.

excellent post

Lets also throw the notion that you can make a silencer (suppressor) out of a soda bottle.

That you can make a car explode by shooting the

That m-16 bullets tumble when they hit the body....yes, this is in fact a myth.

M-16 bullets will dramatically change course if they hit hard tissue (a bone), but with the "new" style rifle (ie. m-16A2.A3,A4) the rifling gives the bullet a much more stable flight and a lot of these rounds pass clean through bodies and leave tiny wounds.

Now, it is true that both the m-16 and the ak-47 "ball" rounds have a 2 stage penetrater, but that is only to add kinetic energy upon impact of a hard object (read steel plate), in fact the m16's tungsten penetrators are separate pieces of metal that are placed next to each other (touching), while the AK-47 penatrators have a very small gap between them; the Russians believe this increases the "hammer" effect.

so, any other gun myths?

just my .02...

#1...... HEAD SHOTS!!!

#2..... If you are unskilled in firearms buy a mossberg 12 ga pump and aim center mass.

#3 SHOTGUN SLUGS or SABOTS , you won't need to worry about AP rounds or penetration if you hit someone with anything on THIS

page , the knockdown power is tremendous , over penetration is as previously stated a bad thing , you want fragmentation of the round and you want it to mushroom and cause as much trauma and soft tissue damage as possible.

#4 if all else fails buy yourself a M82 SASR and some of these

I dont care what it is if you hit it it will die.

video of gun in action

head shot. lols you are funny. That is unless you actually have some combat experience to back that claim. Sniping and killing people is not as much as hunting as people would like to think. Also, the problem with using a shot gun on soldiers is that they generally do not travel alone.


9-4 added content.

Ohh, I forgot about those "special" shot gun rounds. first for the "hot" rounds, if you are using a semi-auto gas operated gun you can damage the gas port. for recoil or blow-back operated guns you can damage the recoil spings, and for a pump, double baller, over under, and other types of single shot / manual operating guns and for all types of shot guns... you run the serious risk of damaging/ destroying your chamber, barrel, choke, or stock. Look up catastrophic malfunction. just look at your shot gun, the barrel and chamber are a single tube of thin metal, not a heavy barrel like a rifle of pistol.

also, how many hot rounds can you shoot before you are impaired from bruising, separated shoulders, or a broken collar bone?

People with little to no experience with firearms should think objectively and seek professional advice. Hollywood and alot of these posters do not count.

if I have offended any one by insinuating that they are noob shooters I am sorry I do not mean to. if the shoe fits wear it, if not take it off.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by irongunner]

reply to post by irongunner
I wholeheartedly agree on "hot" rounds in a shotgun. Very bad idea. But as far as a silencer out of a soda bottle, it does work, but only on .22 long rifle. You have to fill it with a soft substance such as tissue's or toilet paper.



[edit on 8-9-2008 by Anuubis]

reply to post by irongunner



4 Years Marine Corps

2 Years SERT team




Mossy 500a with ati side folder stock w/ pistol fore grip , ported barrel and padded butt stock , Laser sights and most likely fired from the hip.

Thats my Home defense weapon , my daily is a Glock 23... most of the time I shoot the Q but I can put two rounds upstairs in a hurry. It's not practical real world , but we're talking totally fictitious , sit X/Zombie type fantasy. In real world , I wanna only hit the bad guy and not suzie and lil johnny playing in the front yard. I would be Cup & Saucer , Glock 17 , 2 rounds of federal hydro shok center mass.

But when the zombies are at my door , I want my rhodesian jungle ammo , or a 3in 1 1/4 oz slug and I want it coming out of the business end at around 356,543 fps...lol

anybody know where I can get my hands on some thermite?...

reply to post by EyesWideShut



I believe this is RW survival ammo. I thought the Rhodesian round was a stack of 2 or 3 smaller slugs, and the jungle round was a mix of buck and bird shot.

both of which don't sound too good for a full choked gun...