Survival Ammo - armor piercing?

Okay, so I've been reading the threads about what weapon is best for survival.....

I'm curious about what a friend of mine told me almost 10 years ago. He said that the best thing to do is get a clip with half armor piercing and half hollow point.

He said that all you have to do is cross cut the tips of half the rounds to make them hollow point (I'm assuming you could drill out a tiny bit also), but then on the other half coat the tip of the bullet with teflon spray.

Would this make a good combination for all around survival.
I'm not interested in hunting using this setup, it is an all around survival combo, for when stuff hits the fan.....

So, was this a farce told to me by my friend?

Your friend watched too many terrorist movies.



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[edit on 25-7-2008 by Jbird]

It's a farce. I would also suggest you don't modify any of your ammunition in any way for any reason. You will ruin the ballistic properties and negate any benefit from modifing the bullet. If you want hollow points buy hollow points. As for armor piercing ammunition well that's illegal.

reply to post by THE-LURKER


Since when is steel cored ammo illegal? Hell, most of the 7.62x39 ammo you can find these days is steel cored and will penetrate BA.

I think most people have a serious misunderstanding when it comes to the definition of a 'survival situation' - and that misunderstanding is clearly evidenced when those same people start suggesting tricked out match rifles as their gun of choice, or discussing the merits of ammunition to defeat body armor.

Unless we're invaded by some alien race that rides around in armored hover bubbles, I think the usefulness of armor-piercing rounds is probably going to be very limited.

The key to survival situations is versatility. Besides, being a decent shot with your firearm(s) of choice makes a whole hell of a lot more difference than what you've got in your chamber or clip.

Last I checked, even the theoretical shock troops of the NWO don't have full-body, hardened armor. And even then, what sort of nutjob thinks it's a good idea to take on a battalion of armored infantry, with or without armor-piercing ammunition? If you see storm troopers in heavy armor marching down the road, get on your bike and pedal man, because that's the best chance you've got at seeing another sunrise.

The humble .22LR is my round of choice for SitX or any other day, because of its unmatched VERSATILITY. It's got more than enough 'whallop' to handle larger game animals with well-aimed shots at conservative distances, and as a self defense round it is deceptively lethal. People harp on and on about various shotguns, military surplus rifles, and big-bore game-getters, but really, do you have a pack mule? Because I don't, and that crap is heavy (and I'm a big guy, I can carry a lot).

If your plan is to hole up somewhere and you've got tons of storage space and money to burn, you may as well have 6 or 7 guns for specialized tasks, and enough ammo for each to make a cult leader nervous. But I still think it's unwise and unnecessary. The best place to be when TSHTF is..ready..wait for it..ELSEWHERE! So get up and go, be out.

You can stuff a rucksack with enough clothing, cookware, tackle, and firecraft supplies, along with .22LR ammo and one or two firearms - plenty of kit to last YEARS. America has a lot of vast, unpopulated areas, and that's where I want to be (at least until the looting dies down).

There are at least 4 kill shots that I can think of on a person wearing body armor, and they don't require big-bore - they require steady hands and a level of comfort and accuracy with the weapon that can only be realized after many bricks of ammunition have been fired.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have no plans on selling a kidney just so I can gain sufficient practice time at the range with a .308...

Just my opinion.

See the attached link. www.atf.treas.gov...

I will admit it's all a matter of definiton. The above link does carry a list of such ammunition that is prohibited. The gun control laws we have in this nation leave an extremely fine line between right and wrong. Plus I don't think the laws are even understood by those who write them. LOL

Okay, so I understand that making bullets armor piercing may be illegal.
That being said, I personally can see situations where this might be useful.

Would a 22LR coated with Teflon be able to penetrate a car door?
It is my understanding that the Teflon allows the bullet to penetrate metals and body armors. It probably would not penetrate the ceramic plate on body armor, just the light armor without the plate.

I am not so comfortable or naive to believe that there is no possibility of an invasion into the United States.
Lets say for example... what if a large Mexican gang (thousands of people) just started walking north from the border, eliminating everything in their path, and taking over a wide swath of southern US? Would you still be debating the legality of armor piercing ammo under these circumstances?

I doubt the officials will be going around checking your magazines... they'd just be happy to have armed citizens on their side. Anyone see Red Dawn?

if you're fudging bullets, chances are they will be disappointingly inaccurate, ie. off by several feet at engagement range and unpredictably so.

teflon coating, err, not quite. the trick for AP is rigidity and teflon will do nothing, except reduce friction first and create deposits in the barrel later on. the idea was probably introduced in the same movie they fired .357 (revolver ammo) through uzis...

only rifle ammo should even be considered against BA and making them yourself would require serious preparations. if you know how to make tungsten carbide tips and bullets, even semi-AP is out of reach.

but if all that sounds like an attainable goal to you, go for it, just don't risk too much money.

First understand what the current SAPI (Small Arms Protective Insert) plate can handle... we are talking about multiple rounds from ak-47's at near point plank range, I know pepole that have been shot with Draganov rounds (which I believe is about the same as .308 magnums)... AP rounds are not going to do much except get you killed... sure you might get one or two soldiers, but if a group of people you are fighting have armor like that they also have APC's and tanks.... no amount of supper high tech teflon coated depleted uranium 7.62MM or even likely .50 Cal rounds will do good against a tank!

Ohh I can hear the next post now... I can snipe the people in the tank.... or... I can take out the engine....

first, what is you operational knowlege about tanks? do you know who you would have to kill to realy take that main gun out? and what good would taking the engine out?

I promise that a tank (definatly) or an APC (probobly) have optics that could hit you in your "Sniper Hide" from about 2500 meters.. All that would be left if a wet/ burned patch of earth.

That doesnt include helicopter, UAV, human intel that you have to combat.

Why do you think the Iraqi sniping incidents have trailed off?

Not only that but the problem with AP ammo on soft target is ---over penetration----.

If you read and understand the issues with current NATO ammo (the 9mm and 5.56mm) is that it move too fast and does not transfer enough energy (ie. expansion) into soft targets or what you hear as thru and thru.

For me when sit X happens I will take .22lr and be selective with my game shots. I will take 3 weapons. a .22 pistol, semi auto rifle, and bolt action rifle.


If its an invading army look for IED and other booby traps.

As a few of the other posters said, do NOT attempt to modify any of your ammunition. One, modification can be extremely dangerous to you and harmful to your weapon. Two, modification of ammunition is not legal in most places.

Go out and buy yourself a Ruger 10/22 or something similar and you won't be sorry. They are accurate, dependable and the ammunition is lightweight and cheap. Remember, in SitX simplicity wins.

AP ammo is banned in some states. It is not legal to manufacture or import into the US, however the remaining stocks are still being sold at far higher prices than it is worth. It is actually worth far less than standard ammo. Its a con.

Does it serve a purpose? not really at all. It is undesirable for most countries and agencies as it over penetrates. What do those agencies use? Ball ammo. Its a case of fiction building price and desirability among the uneducated.

Best to just skip it altogether and not run afoul of the law. That goes for all the fancy james bond crap. Keep it legal. Avoid anything that can not cross state lines in all states.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Last I checked, even the theoretical shock troops of the NWO don't have full-body, hardened armor. And even then, what sort of nutjob thinks it's a good idea to take on a battalion of armored infantry, with or without armor-piercing ammunition? If you see storm troopers in heavy armor marching down the road, get on your bike and pedal man, because that's the best chance you've got at seeing another sunrise.

Sorry for the OT, but I have to applaud (again) your writing style.

I agree, the teflon spray on a soft bullet (making it AP) idea is urban legend.

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
I'm curious about what a friend of mine told me almost 10 years ago. He said that the best thing to do is get a clip with half armor piercing and half hollow point.

Which would you load in the mag first? Would you have to pump 15rds of hollowpoint into your armoured adversary before you got to the AP rounds, or would you be stuck firing AP rounds at a soft target when HPs would be better?

That's assuming that I believed there was a place for AP rounds in survival.

Which I don't.

He said that all you have to do is cross cut the tips of half the rounds to make them hollow point (I'm assuming you could drill out a tiny bit also), but then on the other half coat the tip of the bullet with teflon spray.

Why make HPs this way (which is much more difficult than it sounds) when professionally manufactured HP ammo is available commercially?

The teflon thing stems back to certain types of AP ammo that was causing severe damage to barrels. The manufacturers started coating the rounds with teflon to reduce wear. The teflon has no AP properties whatsoever, it justs protects the bore in purpose-built AP ammo.

Would this make a good combination for all around survival.

No.

So, was this a farce told to me by my friend?

Yes.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by PaddyInf]

Opps, Double Post!

[edit on 24-7-2008 by PaddyInf]

reply to post by ThreeDeuce


First off, like has already been stated, NEVER modify ammunition... bad things will probably happen. Second, when your friend said to load the magazine half and half, he probably meant to stagger the rounds... one hollow point, one ball, and so on

As has been previously posted AP ammo is really hard to get, and most likely overkill in any situation you would ever be in. Me....I carry black talons in all my pistols....illegal, yes, but they have fragmentation and stopping power on their side, so much so they have been banned. After that I am all about gold dot HP ammo.

As far as a rifle....anything in .223. Ammo is easy to find and fairly cheap for the most part.

Really if you do a bit of research you would probably want to buy a weapon that uses the most common types of ammo, then stock as much of that ammo in different configs as possible, whether it be hollow, ball, AP, and different weights for different shots and trajectories.

Just my .02

I understand how guns and military tactics work guys.
There is absolutely no reason to chastize a simple question.

Thanks, but never did I talk about taking on a batallion of armored soldiers. I would be quite mad if I was stating anything like that.

If you had read, you would notice the only example I gave was of a car door, and nothing similar to your accounts of a tank.

Irongunner, I now wonder if you lack the tact of normal conversation, or the normal reading and comprehension skills that it takes to understand a simple thread with a simple question.

But thank you for the posters who say that it is just a hoax and that it would not work. I also appreciated the information that it would foul the barrel most likely, and drastically decrease the accuracy. Your answers were as simple as I thought the question and hypothetical situation was.

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce
Would a 22LR coated with Teflon be able to penetrate a car door?

If the teflon didn't make the projectile go off in some wierd direction, yes. Would a normal .22LR projectile penetrate a car door? Yes.

Hope this helps.

The inaccuracy of a modified round would be the least of my worries.
cutting thru the metal jacket of a rifle bullet is asking to loose a hand or eyesight when the barrel blows up due to a bullet coming apart and causing an obstruction.
for answers to penetration questions check out the box of truth.

You can always go to Box O' Truth and see what regular rounds do. They shoot up a car with various ammos, and they all penetrate after a few rounds or in just one shot(any rifle round will go right through a car). Personnaly, I favor the 7.65X54R. You can get 50 rounds of API(armor peircing incendiary) rounds for 20$. Also shot placement is key anyway. Shoot the head, or if it and thier body is armored, shoot them from the side directly in thier shoulder. It will hit thier heart/lungs or cause so much hydostatic shock they will die anyway.

If you have a .22lr, just shoot the ear/nose/eye regions.

AP rifle rounds could be good against crowds of people because you can overpenetrate and kill more than one person with just one round.