Survival Ammo - armor piercing?

One- NEVER modify ammo or projectiles in any way! If you do you will screw up the balistic co-efficient and stuctural integrity and more than likely injure or kill yourself.
Two- The only thing teflon does when applied to bullets is seal them in the bore when fired, hence better accuracy. It WILL NOT allow full metal jacketed bullets to penetrate body armor. If your worried about penetrating body armor, then buy yourself a 30-06 or larger caliber weapon and full metal jacketed bullets. But in the situation we will most likely be in, no one will have body armor unless stolen from dead police ocifers or military personnel. That being the case you want hollow points because the wound channel is ten times bigger and three hundred times more fatal.
Oh and your confused friend was most likely refering to full metal jackets as armor piercing. There is a BIG difference! Full metal jacketed bullets have a lead/steel alloy core, armor piercing bullets have a steel/tungsten core.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Anuubis]

Originally posted by Anuubis

Oh and your confused friend was most likely refering to full metal jackets as armor piercing. There is a BIG difference! Full metal jacketed bullets have a lead/steel alloy core, armor piercing bullets have a steel/tungsten core.

[edit on 24-7-2008 by Anuubis]

Thank you for your interpretation of what my confused friend was most likely referring to. But, you are incorrect. My friend was referring to exactly what I posted about.

Again, we weren't discussing actual armor piercing ammunition, but the modification of normal ammo with teflon coating. I have heard that it does not foul your barrel, and that it increases the penetration drastically.

If I was to attempt this, I would not test it with any expensive weaponry, that would be idiotic.

I always find it humorous how people attempt to interpret the question at hand, and determine what I must have been talking about, when the question is clear and concise. It is almost as if people assume others are idiots and have no knowledge of any subject. People give themselves too much credit, and others not enough. Which is a tendency that really is outdated and trite.

Originally posted by Vasa Croe
As has been previously posted AP ammo is really hard to get, and most likely overkill in any situation you would ever be in. Me....I carry black talons in all my pistols....illegal, yes, but they have fragmentation and stopping power on their side, so much so they have been banned. After that I am all about gold dot HP ammo.

As far as a rifle....anything in .223. Ammo is easy to find and fairly cheap for the most part.

Really if you do a bit of research you would probably want to buy a weapon that uses the most common types of ammo, then stock as much of that ammo in different configs as possible, whether it be hollow, ball, AP, and different weights for different shots and trajectories.

Just my .02

So called "Black Talons" are not illegal, but there was quite a bit of controversy around them.

Controversy
The ammunition was targeted by those opposed to handguns,[5] and the reputation was very different in the public,[6]and eventually the Talons became to be known by the moniker "Cop-Killer" bullets.[7] The hype of the Black Talon ammunition was the black coating on the bullets themselves. There were false rumors that the bullets were armor piercing and could penetrate the Kevlar vests worn by police officers.[8][9]. To further the controversy, some medical personnel claimed that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection, [1] however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.[10]

In 1996 a lawsuit was filed (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996) claiming that Olin Corp should be liable for a shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed.[11]

Winchester bowed to pressure and in 1993 removed the ammunition from public sale for a time,[12] and eventually law enforcement also bowed to the pressure, but at no time(including presently) was it, nor is it, illegal to possess the Black Talon ammunition.


Current status
Winchester voluntarily pulled the ammunition from the market completely in 2000.

en.wikipedia.org...


That all being said "armor piercing" is kind of a misnomer, as it really depends what class of body armor your wanting to think about penatrating.

Class I and Class II, IIA (which are mainly for protection against pistol calibers) can be defeated by just about any rifle bullet from .223 (5.56mm) on up. Class III will stop most ball ammunition, but true AP rounds will go through it like the NATO 5.56mm SS109/M855 steel core penatrator rounds. Class III will usually stop AP rounds.

en.wikipedia.org...

As mentioned, don't mess with your ammo. While some states do restrict certain types of rounds in most US states rounds deemed AP are perfectly legal but again what is and isn't "armor piercing" is up for debate, especially when it comes to lawyers and politicians.


As a basic survival rifle a .22lr is probably fine, particularily for small game for food (squirrls and rabbits and such) and it will work better then many think for defense and is better then nothing, but I don't know if I would trust my life to one in a SHTF scenario. A 12 guage shotgun would also be handy for short range defense and for taking birds.

If your worried about being overrun by rioters/looters/criminals ect, en mass I would say (if your local laws allow it) to get a Mini-14 or an AR-15. Expensive, (and so is the ammo) and perferably takes some education or training to maintain and use reasonably effectively. And there .223 ammo comes in all sorts of flavors (FMJ, JHP, AP, SP, 55gr, 62gr, 69gr, etc.).


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[edit on 25-7-2008 by Jbird]

Originally posted by Anuubis

Two- The only thing teflon does when applied to bullets is seal them in the bore when fired, hence better accuracy.

if you have blow-by i doubt teflon spray will change all that much. it really shouldn't happen in jacketed bullets anyway. btw, a large portion of the bullet will be covered by the case mouth, can't spray there, can you?

my greatest concern would be uneven application and its heat resistance

en.wikipedia.org...

PTFE is a white solid at room temperature, with a density of about 2.2 g/cm³. According to DuPont its melting point is 327 °C (620.6 °F), but its properties degrade above 260 °C (500 °F).[7]

not too hot, is it?

PS: my last post contains an error from editing, probably, i meant to say:

'unless you know how to make tungsten carbide tips and jacketed bullets, even SAP will be out of reach' d'uh.

[edit on 2008.7.25 by Long Lance]

reply to post by Long Lance


My interpretation, is that you'd only need to spray the tip of the bullet. This small coating would give the bullet extra resistance when coming into contact with hard surfaces. Whereas if you cross cut the tip of the bullet, it would make it less resistant upon impact.

It seems at least a few people think this would actually work.

But, I would think that the application would need to be a consistent coating, to not affect the aerodynamic properties adversely. I don't see how the teflon would cause fouling in the barrel, if there is just a small amount on the tip. I'm not talking about coating the whole thing, or the jacket, that is just absurd. So, none of the teflon would come into contact with the barrel... I think...

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce

It seems at least a few people think this would actually work.

yeah, stranger things have happened.

if teflon tips really helped against soft BA, people using it would do everything to discredit the idea, but i'm still sceptical. the movies are not a source of information.

heck if teflon tips give you more confidence, go for it, just test some of the ammo for accuracy and keep it on the tip f-ex. use some sort of mask, like cardboard with an array of holes for the tips. probably a bit voodoo-ish, though.

[edit on 2008.7.25 by Long Lance]

Teflon is only used as a coating toreduce barrel wear in hardened AP bullets. As I said before, the Teflon itself does nothing to increase the AP properties of a round, AP or otherwise.

Originally posted by ThreeDeuce

I always find it humorous how people attempt to interpret the question at hand, and determine what I must have been talking about, when the question is clear and concise. It is almost as if people assume others are idiots and have no knowledge of any subject. People give themselves too much credit, and others not enough. Which is a tendency that really is outdated and trite.

You don't need to be rude. You aked a question and i answered it. I didn't assume you were an idiot, i just gave you information based on my gunsmithing knowledge, which i happen to be very good at.

reply to post by Long Lance
Yes, but the bullet diameter is the same inside and out of the case mouth. With standard button rifling, the lands and grooves are square and the bullets don't match up completely. That is why manufacturers such as winchester make moly-coated bullets. It seals the projectile completely in the bore. Pure teflon would never work because it cannot withstand the temperatures. The moly coating is about 50 percent teflon and the rest is to make it more resistant to heat.

Annubis, I apologize if you thought I was being rude. I definitely was not attacking you, but I was voicing my opinions on the people who responded with attacks against me, which I found unneccesary.

I wasn't thinking of teflon as a compound to seal the bullet against the barrel, such as the moly-coating, but as just a small coating on the tip, which should never touch the barrel.

After reading this thread, I doubt I will ever try this, given that I don't have any junk weapons, I enjoy all of mine. Also, Teflon is not a cheap substance, and I would not be able to easily find said substance in Sit X.

I would, however, enjoy Mythbusters busting this myth! It would give them a good excuse to shoot some more heavy weapons and have fun!

Ummm just a lowly persons thought but if your wanting armour penetration (Why in a surival situation you'd require this is beyond me....unless you plan on becoming Snake Plissken?) then why not go lower tech than high tech? A single steel arrow will easily penetrate modern kevlar body armour.

I give you example one....
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by ThreeDeuce
Maybe i worded the last part wrong. I wasn't being derrogatory towards your friend, It's just that most people i deal with don't know the difference with bullets. They watch to much TV and have no clue!

reply to post by devilwasp
That would work on most body armor, but high grade armor has the cut resistant kevlar woven in also. If it's lower grade or standard issue armor, the arrow will go all the way through the target.

Annubis, no big deal... its cool, regardless.

I agree with the armor, it probably wouldn't penetrate the new Dragonscale armor. I definitely think we will be modifying the old armor, like chain linked overlap (whose design spurred on Dragonscale), because the physics of that armor was more sounds, but upgraded with current technology.

Originally posted by devilwasp
then why not go lower tech than high tech? A single steel arrow will easily penetrate modern kevlar body armour.

mhh, silent but deadly

what about a strong crossbow with spearheaded bolts? sounds awesomely dangerous to me.

reply to post by ThreeDeuce
It's possible to penetrate dragon scale, but you would have to be shooting at an upward angle or it will bounce off the ceramic disks.

Originally posted by Anuubis
reply to post by devilwasp

 

That would work on most body armor, but high grade armor has the cut resistant kevlar woven in also. If it's lower grade or standard issue armor, the arrow will go all the way through the target.

Yup, high grade (Level 3+) no doubt would either stop or slow it down. It all depends on the distance, angle and most importantly the type of arrow. A really heavy arrow if it gets enough energy will defiantly go through kevlar...

reply to post by devilwasp
It would depend on the range if you wanted a lighter or heavier arrow. Lighter arrows get to terminal velocity faster and maintain it longer. Heavier arrows have more kinetic force.

In regards to the posts about what is and what is not legal in the ammo catagory, you need to go to each and every state YOU live in to know for sure whats correct to posess. Some states are very foolish in what they allow the citizenry to own. Mass. and California and also here in Conn. certain bullit types in the 9mm caliber are not legal, others are ok. Same with .44 mag and .357. There are in fact certain states the specificaly outlaw Black Talon ammo for possesion. Talon is bad Saber is good, but almost the same balistic quotient. Clearly they no not what they do!! AP ammo can also be dangerous to shoot in certain types of barrels. Bull type barrels are recomended to reduce bulging because Ap does not compress to adapt to rifleing as easily as even ball ammo.

Zindo

reply to post by Sr Wing Commander


Ned a trip to the truth box on this one. Class III has no resistance to rifle bullets of the ball type. It will not stop any AP rifle bullet. It does however stop shotgun slugs. Check it out. Skip the AP and stick with ball.

www.theboxotruth.com...