Obama and the Socialist Ideal

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posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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IMO The best government model would be based on a mishmash of the best parts of a republic,democracy,fascism, communism and socialism. America is a melting pot of cultures so why shouldn't our government reflect that diversity. Don't start screaming, they all have some good policies.




posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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If Obama is a socialist, then McCain is a fascist.

Anyone calling any mainstream candidate in the United States post-1920 (when Eugene Debs ran) has no idea what they're talking about. Huey Long excluded, seeing as how he was assassinated before the 1936 election.

Obama is, on the American political scale, right of Dennis Kucinich and slightly left of Hillary Clinton. On a real political scale, he's just pretty much center-left.

Anyone who would "move to Canada" if Obama won doesn't seem to understand that Canada is far more socialist than the United States will ever be, and they're doing just fine (thanks to US protectionism but that's another issue).



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
 


Spoken like a true Socialist...

I don't mean that to insult my friend, if that is how you believe, fine...

But what you have done there is give perfect examples of Socialism all the while denying it is Socialist....

Raise taxes...
Only does one thing.. Make the populace more dependent on the Government.. It has been PROVEN TIME AND AGAIN that LOWERING TAXES raises government revenue... So why raise taxes? Again, to make us more dependent on Government.. No other reason...

Redistribution of wealth...
Either this is due to jealously or Socialism.... No other reason for this BS...
How much money is too much?
Who decides how much you or I can make?
oh Yeah, the Socialist Government...

The rest of your post is right out of the Communist Manifesto...

If that is your beliefs, I salute you for supporting them, but they are NOT the principles that made this country great and just like the elections in 06 have begun doing, they will certainly destroy this country...

Semper



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by evanmontegarde
 


It would seem the experts disagree with you...

OBAMA MOST LIBERAL SENATOR 2007


Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.

National Journal

Sorry but your opinion does not discount the FACTS

Semper



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Obama in that video really sickens me when he speaks to AIPAC saying we need to fight to secure Israel's borders. The same Israel that is expanding and taking control of the Middle East, the same way that a certain Fuhrer did to Europe?

img180.imageshack.us...

The same Israel that bombed our ship the USS Liberty in 1967? Such great allies they are. Why do our men and women die for them again?

[edit on 29-6-2008 by OrangeAlarmClock]



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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You do realize that Senators are exclusively limited to American people, right? As I said Obama is left on the American political scale.

Compared to some Representatives like Kucinich, he's not very liberal though.

As for the myth of Obama raising taxes for everything - It's just that, a myth. Obama's tax plan actually cuts taxes for 90% of Americans further than what Bush has done and further than what McCain will do. The richest 10% will get taxed higher to help pay off our huge national debt that Bush has wracked up.

Real socialist, huh?



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by evanmontegarde
 


RAISING TAXES DOES NOT INCREASE GOVERNMENT REVENUE...

Economics 101

There is NO reason to raise taxes other then to punish success which is the perfect Socialist Ideal...

Punish success, make us all dependent on the government and make us all equal in our own misery...


In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

Foundation for Economic Education

Yeah... Socialist

Semper



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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I don't know what economic theory you subscribe to, but I'm a fan of the Keynesian school. I'll leave it up to you to go and read about what that means.

It's ironic to call Obama a socialist when the Bush administration has spent more government revenue than the "liberal" Presidents Clinton and Carter as per a Cato Institute study:
www.cato.org...

While increasing tax rates at a Federal level has not been directly shown to increase government revenue since JFK's days, the past 8 years are unprecedented in American history. That is, Bush has been decreasing taxes at the highest rates for the wealthiest Americans while simultaneously borrowing billions of dollars primarily from China in order to pay for his Iraq War.

I'm assuming semperfortis believes supply-side economics are the ultimate economic theory - well, Bush had 8 years with that and we all saw how well that worked.



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Spoken like a true Socialist...


Thanks, I got a good laugh out of that...



Raise taxes...
Only does one thing.. Make the populace more dependent on the Government.. It has been PROVEN TIME AND AGAIN that LOWERING TAXES raises government revenue... So why raise taxes? Again, to make us more dependent on Government.. No other reason...


I don't think I buy this. Here's the deal. A system of no formal government is called Anarchy. It has been proven time and time again that Anarchy, as a social organization form for large populations simply does not work. Thus, the existence of a formal government.

The only ways a government can get money are voluntary donations by or taxes on the citizenry. In either case, a government cannot continue to spend vast amounts of money that it does not have. So either a government must stop spending these vast amounts of money, or convince the citizenry that it is a good idea and get voluntary donations, or levy taxes. In our particular case, the government has been spending way more money than it has, for a good long time. Where is that money going to come from?

A reality note: Taxes will rise. And fairly soon. Without regard to who is president. The excuses will differ, is all. jmo



Redistribution of wealth...
Either this is due to jealously or Socialism.... No other reason for this BS...


Uh, actually neither. Nice try, though.




If that is your beliefs, I salute you for supporting them, but they are NOT the principles that made this country great and just like the elections in 06 have begun doing, they will certainly destroy this country...

Semper


I agree, communism and socialism are not the ideals that made this country great.

Nor is blind pursuit of personal profit at the expense of everything else.

I am surprised that you do not recognize that what made this country great is free-enterprise capitalism tempered with behaving in a way that is supportive of the culture, rather than destructive.

What we have now is an ideology of personal profit, above everything else. That, my friend, is what is destroying the country. If Obama raises taxes, or McCain lowers them, both are irrelevant in the face of this cultural drive for everybody to get the absolute most they can of everything and to hell with everybody in their way. In other words, we've lost that temper. If we as a culture don't revive it, nothing any government can or will do will save us.



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by AuntieHosebag
 

I agree with your sentiments the sheeple in front of the television bedazzled by Obamas charisma and gift of oratory at he recites the mantra change..change..change.

Change what? your underpants,your toothpaste?

Regardless of the messianic appeal of Obama and the fact he should win by a landslide,he wont, the powers that be will give you a close race to make you believe in the process.

Yesterday a Mc Cain lobbyist made a bid for Diebold,the voting machine manufacturer and don't forget the large Republican support base among America's deceased community.

It will be very close indeed,the dead shall rise and vote Republican en masse.



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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I think the Obama is a Marxist pure and simple. I just happened to see on TV him announcing his run for the Presidency, in his speech I heard him clearly say that we the people of the USA must SACRIFICE!

I'm telling you all that I have sacrificed enough! I send a son of to war,enough, I can't pay my taxes, enough!

This Federal Government is too damn ill managed by all the politicians that the burden of more government will collapse the US.

What do we do with all of this debt? Simple stop spending. Stop the global welfare system. You can't buy your friends.

Marxism looks good on paper but with human frailties ( faults) it doesn't work. It only works for those in power or for those who think they will come to power.

Roper

BTW good job Semper



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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If socialism is

The people who control the government also own and control the means of production,

Then

The USA has been socialist since the military industrial complex took power in 2001.

eg:
At the direction of "former" corporate Officers, now controlling government;
Pentagon decides what shall be built, lets contracts.
Former Pentagon officers in "defense" corporations take those contracts.
Government decides what shall be built, how workers shall be treated and paid, decides whom the product shall be sold to and lends money to the approved buyers so they can buy the product. Citizens only part is in paying for all of it, either via direct taxes or via indirect taxes caused by inflation.
Socialism!

No matter which party is in power it's a transfer of wealth from government to private pockets.

Only difference is who gets what percentage of that money.

Military Industrial Complex are always the fattest hogs dominating the feed trough.

Obama may shift more money to Supplemental Security Income, but Nixon signed SSI into existence to begin with.

Biggest change might might be less money to fighting crime.
eg: Obama opposes anti-gang legislation.
Said it is because more blacks are in gangs, so penalties against gang violence impact blacks more. (State Senate)

IMHO
We need 'toto to pull back that curtain' so we can see the same people manipulating us while financing and controlling both candidates.


[edit on 29-6-2008 by himself]



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by OrangeAlarmClock

Right now we desperately need a fiscal conservative to save this country. More brainless spending WILL see the destruction of this great nation, just as devaluation of the currency has destroyed all past empires.

Sadly, both Obama AND McCain are fiscal liberals that want to spend, spend, spend us into debt and destruction. The most viable third party that has a chance is Bob Barr, who is very fiscally conservative, but i'll admit it's not likely he is going to win. Chuck Baldwin is another good choice, but he is even less popular. But I'll probably be voting for him unless Ron Paul announces an independent run.


It's Republicans like Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush who want to "spend, spend, spend us into debt and destruction." Bush is presiding over the largest deficit this country has ever known, and it's borrowed money he's spending. Heaven forbid he should raise taxes.

Obama at least has ways of raising money for the plans he proposes. He would ask for a modest increase in the tax rate for the top 5% of income earners. A similar higher tax rate was in effect in the 1950's and 1960's, a time when the middle class was much larger than it is now and growing, and there was a prosperity that was widely shared.

Bill Clinton, a Democrat, wiped out the deficit Ronal Reagan ran up. Being fiscally conservative doesn't mean just cutting programs for the poor, though that's what people usually mean when they use the term. It means, for one thing, that one doesn't fight wars on borrowed money.

Obama is not a socialist, he's a classic liberal. True, he's probably to the left of Hillary Clinton, but he's definitely a capitalist. FDR was far more "socialistic" than Obama and he was elected four times.

Most people who don't want national health care claim it will turn our country into a socialist state. Japan is a capitalist country, with a strong economy, and it has universal health care. So do Great Britain, Canada, Germany, Denmark, etc. One difference between them and us is that we are very diverse, while those populations are more homogenous. There is less fear that "those others" will get some benefit they don't deserve.

Obama can't possibly enact all the reforms he would like to, but I hope he will get some of them passed. His policies will benefit the middle class as well as the poor, and they won't hurt the rich. Even Warren Buffet admits his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does.

Yes, the economy is in the tank, but why should we call upon the Republicans, the party with the record for massive debt, to save us? It is, indeed, time for a change



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 07:21 PM
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Obama is nothing near a Socialist. He had a Communist mentor (if thats correct) but that doesn't make him a Communist/Socialist.

Oh and if Capitalism is working wonders, why are tons of people losing their houses and are struggling to make ends meet? Fluctuating markets and constant recessions are good? Sure it may increase the standard of living, but it's also a catalyst to bringing Socialism. Just like how feudalism paved the way to Capitalism.


One question for Semperfi or w/e, Would you rather live in a Fascist or Socialist nation?



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 08:29 PM
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Obama in that video really sickens me when he speaks to AIPAC saying we need to fight to secure Israel's borders. The same Israel that is expanding and taking control of the Middle East, the same way that a certain Fuhrer did to Europe?


This is an example of an Obama "flip-flop over-correction". One week prior to Obama's BS about supporting Israel, he stated that Israel was "like a sore in the ME".

Obama never uses his own words, because he can never come up with any. Obama repeated what a Hama's leader said about Israel and that it was a sore in the ME, not even a week before that.

Once learning how this did not bode well with America on the whole, Obama quickly switched up and came out supporting Israel. Now he just goes overboard with the Israeli support issue.

Obama will redistribute YOUR wealth but not his own. Most wealthy people, including himself, are part of what is referred to as an "Annual Minimum Tax" or AMT credit. It means the wealthy having this clause are to be taxed no more than in the past or up to a certain ceiling rate defined by AMT.

You will be punished for your hard-work, but Obama will not despite his shady real estate dealings and those Senators' that support him with all of their shady real estate dealings (i.e. the Countrywide Scandal etc.).




[edit on 29-6-2008 by jetxnet]



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


what a total idiocy..what has the Great Lord Bush done for you lately or the country as a whole..nothing. What makes one think John "Short Fuse" Mccain is any better than the idiot presently in the white house..



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by jetxnet
 


How convenient for republicans to suffer from amnesia, maybe this explains the hypocrisy flying around from McBush supporters.

McCain is the biggest flip flopper of em all Jetnex and his buddy Bush with his 8years mismanagement further indicates the hypocrisy coming from the republican party and its supporters. Atleast McCain was honest about his lack a knowledge over the economy, most republicans prefer to BS their way into the white house and then we find ourselves in this mess. As far as I can see it Obama intends to end this $200 million a day war that is dragging this economy down and further more he intends to change the current policies in Washington that have FAILED this nation. If you want to defend 8years of Bush and another 4years of Bush policies, go ahead, but dont try to play it down for what it really is and will be.

As for Obamas change in stance towards Isreal we all know that if you want to be elected as POTUS you must be a supporter of Isreal. What I dont understand is why Isreal should be treated as the innocent nation? There were plenty of palestinians who suffered and were unfairly treated and removed from their lands to which they had been on for centuries, why should the palestinians be totally responsible for this mess? Just because it states in the bible that Canaan is jewish land does not mean everybody has to believe it or agree with it and it doesnt make Isreal completely innocent of its wrong doings. BOTH Isreal and Palestine and the other arab nations are to held responsible for the current mess in the middle east.

Its conservatives like you that turn a blind eye to this fact and you happily ramble on about your own belief system thinking its all right, you neglect other cultures and belief systems and the otherside of the story. Why dont you atleast try to be impartial because the world does not revolve around conservative ideals.

By the way, who said "hard workers" arn't suffering now? Your quick to jump the gun and start making accusations about what you think will happen under a democratic presidency yet you again neglect whats been going on under a republican presidency.

[edit on 29-6-2008 by southern_Guardian]



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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It's not about culture. It's about not having the government control everything. If that is uniting of the cultures where everyone becomes dependent on the government just for a low-level welfare playing field, then that isn't good for competition which creates for better quality products and services.

The democratic party has had control of Congress for two years now. In that two years, they managed to screw up the economy pretty-good in terms of Mortgage Lending etc., which is the major domestic catalyst for what is becoming a crippled economy.

It is no wonder many democratic Sentators are part of the Home Mortgage Scandals, including Obama before any of these major scandals.



[edit on 29-6-2008 by jetxnet]



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by OrangeAlarmClock
 


I disagree - I would much rather have economic policy that heavily taxes the upper 1%. Like Dwight Eisenhower, R mind you -- taxation rate for the wealthiest was 90%...

Our country had the greatest economic growth in history this a fact! 1950's

1981 was the year our country was least in debt!!!-- read your self!

tried and true!

Compare this approach to Reagan Bush Clinton and baby Bush - All these presidents lowered taxes on the mega rich ( yes Clinton did to -4%)-

YOu pay more per $ taxed then Bill Gates--??? Why???

These past 30 years have been mostly in the red. Reagan started this backwards concept.

A money giveaway to the rich , killing off citizen service programs = the biggest economic down turn in history ??? and this is good policy?

This is and has been a fascist economy, miles right of the greyest areas of socialism!

We need a change, you guys have had 30 years to screw us up or fix it - time for something new!!!

If the right were offering Eisenhower I might think you had a point- but your not!!

Heres a graph , per the government!

zfacts.com...



posted on Jun, 29 2008 @ 11:13 PM
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I applaud the author of this thread for his effort, but it is pointless to try. Obama could come out and openly say he is socialist (he's come close a time or two) and people would still applaud. Most people in the US have been raised on socialist ideals in our public education system, to the point that they are blind to the faults of it, and blind to how much socialism already infests the US. Want to know why this country has fallen so far in the last 100 years? We left free markets and personal freedom behind, and began the lemming charge towards socialism. It's not a left or right issue, not a democrat or republican thing; BOTH sides are moving us towards socialism. If you want a change for freedom and prosperity, organize or join and existing organization to bring freedom back to the land of the free!





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