Teen arrested for 'blasphemous T-shirt'

Originally posted by darkelf
To all of you who are worried about this teen ager's rights; what do you think should have been done had his shirt read: Jesus is a N----r ("n" word), Jesus is a Q---r, (homosexual) etc . . . Hate speech is hate speech whether it is directed to minorities, homosexuals, or Christians.

I fail to see how using a word that is contrived to mean a womans bits, is a far cry hate speech, even stretching my overstretched mind i cant see it being used as hate speech, its a word, very offensive to some mildly offensive to others, and not offensive at all in some places, i guess it comes down to how and where you where brought up, I grew up around the time of the Toxteth riots in an area that has always been known as one of the toughest in the country, so to me and almost everyone here its just another term of endearment passed between two people not so much in love at the time, and thats it.

It is not the word people are objecting too as far as i can figure it, its the fact that the word is used in conjunction with the name of Jesus, and if Palestine was anything like other tough areas then im certain he found himself called a lot worse, unless your so naive as to think Palestine was a wonderful peaceful place to live back then.

Its an argument that will never be satisfied.

I like freedom of speech, so I will wear a t-shirt that says USA sucks nuts. I wonder how welcomed I will be by the people in here that love freedom of speech. I like freedom as much as the next person but there is a line between freedom and insulting people. An arrest should not have been made maybe just a ticket.

Burdman, I apologize, I know it was a stereotypical post. I typed it up quickly. However, I'm referring more to the black metal side of the genre. Bands like Emperor, Akercocke, Marduk, Dark Throne, etc., along those lines. I can understand the attraction to Christianity and I don't know you or what draws you to the music, but the lyrics are slanted towards anti-Christianity in that particular sub-genre (where CoF hails from) but if you can listen to that and not be offended then props to you for the open mind and enjoying real music.

My post was not intended to stereotype, just an opinion from someone who wears those shirts and the reasoning behind it.

reply to post by Scurvy


Understood. I have some Emperor and some Marduk on my Zune. The stuff which I should probably be disturbed or offended by, but am not and still listen to is the older blatently "satanic" metal like Black Widow. I listen to it because it amuses me, and it helps that I'm almost impossible to actually offend, regardless the topic.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
When did common decency and respect become a bad thing, folks?

When it crushes the right of an individual to choose what they want to wear.

The word 'common' does not cater to individual tastes.

Ultimately, you have to choose between freedom of speech or not insulting people, because they are mutually exclusive.

I find Gordon Brown's freedom of speech, and existence, highly offensive. But I don't do anything about it, because you have to tolerate crap like that.

reply to post by tezzajw


Wait, didn't we have a debate in another thread in which your stance was basically one of pro-anarchy? I believe you said you were opposed to any laws outside the law of nature and would like to see a sort of natural law of retribution take over in which the wronged party or their representatives sought vengeance for any percieved wrong with no involvement of any centralized legal system or governing body. Am I correct with that paraphrasing of what you believe?

Now I've also seen you take an "All religion is trash and should be abolished" stance in some other threads. I guess your wish for "do as thou wilt" only extends to the fenceline between freedom of religion and freedom of everything else, as it seems you'd like to see a forced freedom FROM religion.

OK then, let's apply your logic to this situation. Given what you've said in the past about anarchy and such, how about instead of charging this kid with public indecency, a couple of offended parents instead decided that they had been wronged by their children seeing a major profanity and a nun playing with herself, and proceeded to beat the kid senseless. It's just nature's law, right? If I further recall that previous thread, my thoughts on your attitude haven't changed much at all. I said it then and I say it now, the idea that individual should trump common in all situations leads to a complete disintegration of society. We devolve back into nomadic little sects of people who live by their own group's code (which, as someone pointed out in that other thread means you've just created a code of laws and ruined your anarchistic aspirations.)

Society needs laws and laws need to be based on a majority agreed upon standard with the sole exception involving unequal discriminatory laws. I'm assuming that the law in this case would have stopped and charged someone wearing a shirt with Anton LaVey masturbating and "Satan is a size queen" written on it just as quickly as they charged this young man for his bad decision. If his shirt had just said "I hate Jesus" and had artwork of a crucifixion with a red circle and a slash through it, I'd be 100% in support of you (even though I would still say the guy had shown a serious lack of tact and common sense.) But the fact is it had two things on it a naked nun masturbating and one of the few words that is pretty much universally unacceptable.

Here's Roadrunner records take on the story and Dani Filth's comment
www.roadrunnerrecords.com...

The ironic thing as I sit here and defend the decision as if it was my country that had done it, is that you'd have no issues wearing it in America. You might get asked to leave a particular store or mall, and almost certainly wouldn't be allowed into a school with it on, but that's because of the nudity and profanity. After reading the backstory a little bit more, I see this has fallen under another of Europe's idiotic religious defamation laws, which were ironically instituted to pretect Muslim groups from defamation. As I am adamantly opposed to individual (and redundant) hate crime legislation, and I erred by assuming common sense in this issue had been applied and the prosecution was merely due to the fact the shirt was obscene and was completely independent of the religious tones of the shirt, I'm now screwed and have to back down from agreeing with the authorities. I was wrong and I admit it. I will stand by my original statement that common decency, tact, and a little maturity should tell a person that just because it is their "right" to wear something like this out and about on a public street doesn't mean it should be done. A little bit of respect will always get a person further in life than being a ass, but I guess it takes a certain amount of growing up before someone recognizes that fact for themselves.

I remember once in high school . I was wearing a "Danzig" shirt that had a female demon french kissing a male angel while stabbing him in the back . It said "How the gods kill" on it pretty big.

It was basically implying that they entice you in then stab you in the back . ect..

Well this lady approached me at lunch and asked me to turn it inside out ..
Now this wasn't an outright offensive shirt so i politely turned her down .

She then offered me 20$ to turn it inside out . Well since i had only payed about that for the shirt i agreed .
I walked back into school and hit the bathroom and fixed my shirt back ..

Gotta love fundies .. A quick 20$ for around 4 minutes worth of wearing my shirt inside out .


Anyway.. Whats next . Arresting kindergartners "Cause he's looking at me"

I don't think this falls under freedom of speech so much as freedom of expression .
He did not go into a church spouting off his beliefs . He didn't attack anyone
Nor did he draw attention to himself..

I can agreed that if he was looking for trouble . Or was in a place that it would be obviously not appreciated.. (church) That could be "Looking for trouble"

But he wasn't . He was minding his business.

Why not toss all the people with "NIKE" shirts in jail ? They promote underage sex .. I mean what could "Just do it" Mean ? Everyone knows "IT" is sex., I say burn them all . [/irony]





[edit on 25-6-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

Hmmmm..sometimes I think that things have changed since I was thrown out of school for a day for wearing a "Disco Sucks" tshirt.

reply to post by blueorder

Dude, you´re sidestepping the issue. Never mind though, its expected.



I have a question for all of you who finds the T-shirt offensive:

I take real offense from the police action in this case. Please tell me; why should me being offended by them count less then you being offended by him?

Are your sensitivities worth more than mine?

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Wait, didn't we have a debate in another thread in which your stance was basically one of pro-anarchy? (I SNIPPED the rest that was so far from the truth that it wasn't worth repeating)

burdman30ott6, where is the common sense in bashing a kid because he is wearing a tshirt?

Anarchy, natural justice, whatever terms you wish to play with and delude yourself with, by trying to force them down my throat and twisting what I typed to suit your agenda - none of them matter without a little common sense along the way.

reply to post by spines

Also, I doubt your grandchildren even notice the person, let alone the shirt. Kids are like squishy Etch-a-Sketch's; if they start to ask about it...just give them something shiny and be on your way.

Oh, please dont be so sure about that.

One day not too long ago, I was standing in line at a store. I was wearing a surfing Tshirt (as I used to surf). And on the front it said: If it swells ride it. Now the point of that message was two-fold. It was a surf saying, but also a sexual inuendo .

So, here I am in line and next to me is a father and his son (probaly around 10 or so). And the son said to his father "Dad, what does her shirt mean?" And the father who probably knew NOTHING about surfing basically just ignored his son's question and shot me a very dirty look for wearing a sexualy suggestive shirt

[edit on 25-6-2008 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by jpm1602
Really quite silly. Anyone wearing such a thing is asking for a whoopa$$.
While nursing a wired jaw for 6 weeks sucking broth thru a straw one might ask themselves...hmmm. ya, that was worth it. Definately.

That highlights more the place you live, not social standards. The kid lives in Australia. I don't know of anyone, Ever, having been harassed for wearing a t-shirt like that. Never.

May get a stern look from some older people, but no way would anyone flog him for it.

Sounds like you're sort of christians are a tad on the extremist side.. Threats of violence over the mocking of a prophet..

Who care? Honestly. It's a shirt. Don't like it? Don't look at it.

People need to stop being uptight and Accept there are things in this world they may not like..

Originally posted by Britguy
So, to those people defending the graphic nature of this T-Shirt using the argument of freedom of speech / expression, would they be so quick to defend a T-Shirt with nude pictures of children performing sex acts? If not then why not?

After all, it may offend them but not the wearer and, as some have pointed out, people don't have to look at it if they are offended and it's the offended parties that have the problem in not accepting somebody else's point of view / opinion.

Just what are the boundaries, if any do indeed still exist?

Who on earth starred this post?

Guess what, it's not illegal to think Jesus is a snip. But I think you'll find that it is pretty damned illegal to have images such as the ones you just mentioned.

Unbelievable. How simple a mind must be to draw such a comparison...

The government has stolen the constitution! Seriously now, this may be agreably offencive, however full aresting is going oveboard. It would have been better to pull this guy over about it.

reply to post by greeneyedleo


I was actually going to comment that Spines clearly isn't a parent, but it slipped my mind when I read further along the thread. Just the idea of "giving them something shiney" and they'll quickly forget about the shirt made me chuckle. My son turns two this weekend and when he gets his mind set on something he is relentless and doesn't forget. Not to mention that he's now at the age where everything out of his mouth is "what this?" "what that?" and the always popular "what do?"

reply to post by tezzajw


This is something i will never understand. Who decides that these "swear words" are offensive? Somebody started using the "C" word & now suddenly people are repulsed by it. What is it about "that word". It is widely used as a slang term for the female genetalia, but so are many other words which people aren't as upset by. I will never understand why people get so upset about the use of certain words. It is a form of communication. All be it a strong method, but if someone calls me a "C" i know where i stand! im not offended and neither should someone who overhears it. Im sure there is an original reason why the "C" word is so offensive but i bet 95 percent of the population couldnt tell me without researching it. Their attitude is:

YOU CANT SAY THAT!

why not?

BECAUSE "SOCIETY" SAYS SO

It aint the masses speaking, its a few offended people and mindless sheep tagging along because the dont want to seem rude.

Any thoughts?

The fact is, people do not have the right to not be offended. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing and while you might not agree with what someone says you should always defend their right to say it.

So a kid has a T-Shirt which says "Jesus is a [SNIP]". I find it ridiculous that this raises such an outcry when every day the US drops more bombs in innocent Iraqi civilians. Which is more atrocious?

We need to get our priorities right people.


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[edit on 26-6-2008 by Gemwolf]

Just for the record, since I've seen some Uk members bring up "What's the big deal, it's just a word for a female's private bits." For whatever reason (hint: blame the feminist movement) the word is seriously taboo in the US. In many circles it's right on par with your average racial slur. Personally, the word doesn't bother me and I use it, as I do many words that are considered taboo. But I restrict my usage of them to certain places, events, and it is totally dependent on who is in the room or in the field at the time. There seems to be a cultural difference around the usage of it, which might explain why more Americans are taking issue with the shirt than Euros are.