Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
If there were statistics preserved since the 18th century, Pantheism - definitely Universalism - would be most prevalent belief of its initiates.

What? This is just incorrect, and there is no reason to believe this. Do you have any primary or peer reviewed secondary source to back this up?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Hence, it is no wonder why Freemasonry has attracted an inordinate amount of heretics (by church standards) and outright occultists. The Western esoteric/occultist tradition has never believed in atheism; all of its practitioners thus meet the criteria of admission into Lodge.

Again, you have no evidence for this and there is no reason to believe this.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The above reasons are why Freemasonry has been condemned many times by numerous dogmatic religious institutions of differing denominations.

No, they are not. The actual peer reviewed research into masonic history is in agreement that the reason why some religious institutions do not like masonry is because it promotes a diversity of religious belief, which is obviously to diametrically opposed to most organized religion. The churches who dislike masonry are fearful that so much diversity and freedom of thought might harm their hold on power.

Originally posted by vanosman
My grandpa was high level Scottish Rites Mason of 40yrs

Said "Do not join !"
I trust in what he warns.

Did you perhaps ask him why he said that? Or were you interested in jumping to conclusions and assuming it MUST mean there is something eeeevvvviiilllll going on?

Originally posted by vanosman
Never hear that about Christianity.

Of course, seeing as how Christianity is a religion and Freemasonry is a fraternity, this sort of comparison is pointless. However, even if we were to accept the comparison - no offense, but you must not go out much. You hear it all the time about Christianity.

Originally posted by vanosman
Anyone ever hear of a Christian that told you, Bible, it's not for you just move on ?

Yep.

Originally posted by vanosman
USE YOUR INTUITION ................THE MASONIC APOLOGISTS ARE LOW LEVEL BLUE LODGE WANT 2 BEES !.

I don't know about you, but I prefer to use logical thinking and critical examination of the facts. The facts which state....there is no such thing as a "low level" or "high level" mason, and those masons that ARE on ATS seem to be mostly 32nd degree masons - which are the so oftten proclaimed "high degree masons" - even though we've told you people it doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by vanosman
YOU CAN'T GET TO HEAVEN VIA GOOD WORKS !

Thats nice. Its also your opinion, and it only fits your dogma.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


As long as you believe in a "higher power" (be it as simple as a force or a "great architect") then you're in. Good, then. Well that includes practitioners of the kabbalah, hermeticism, theurgic magick, theosophy, alchemy, astrology, and all types of pantheistic new age hookey. ...

Not meaning to go off topic, but do you really consider pantheism "new age hookey"? Would you consider Spinoza or Einstein, both pantheists, to be deceived by "hookiness"?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Not meaning to go off topic, but do you really consider pantheism "new age hookey"?

No. I consider, quote, "pantheistic new age," hookey.

It's the Hindi notions of pantheism that comprise the base-belief of "New Age"; much of the kookiness about the New Age (even New Thought) has a lot to do with Hinduism - or the Western bastardization thereof.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Originally posted by JoshNorton

It is enough that I have pointed out correctly that Freemasonry welcomes with open arms occultists, pantheists (Hindu or Buddhist), new agers, even pagans, etc., etc. The reason for that is precisely the cherished requirement that its initiates only believe in "God" as an amorphous concept typified by the abstraction, the "Great Architect of the Universe."

Yes, you have pointed this out, and yes, I agree that this is, in fact the case.

That you agree is more than enough for me. Maybe you'll stick up for me then when Light comes by to contradict me not on substance or facts, but for the sole reason that the post was written by what he perceives as his enemy (so it couldn't possibly have any validity coming from an "anti").

My thoughts on the matter are merely that I am correct. I didn't need your confirmation for this, obviously (because I was right), but it is notable just the same.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
That you agree is more than enough for me. Maybe you'll stick up for me then when Light comes by to contradict me not on substance or facts, but for the sole reason that the post was written by what he perceives as his enemy (so it couldn't possibly have any validity coming from an "anti").

My thoughts on the matter are merely that I am correct. I didn't need your confirmation for this, obviously (because I was right), but it is notable just the same.

Contrary to what you may perceive, I don't automatically endorse the posts of other Masons just because they are brothers. As we so often like to point out, nobody speaks for Masonry. We're all just individual voices with our own opinions... there's no party line to tow.

It is perhaps worth pointing out that my particular lodge is fairly open minded. I do hear stories of other lodges in my city where race and religion barriers may still exist. It saddens me that they're not more open, but they're old guard and not particularly receptive to progress. I can't change them, but I can be active in my own lodge and make it as welcoming as possible to all who would wish to join it, regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Answer to what? Right about what?

Well, you've presented some facts, but no thesis. Masonry is open. You've said it, I've said it. You and I are in agreement there. But ultimately the overall question of this thread is "Is Freemasonry a religion?" The Masons are all asserting that it's not. You've made no assertions either way, only describing some attributes of Masonry without placing a personal judgement on that description. You've contributed to the thread, but not in favor of either side of the argument at hand. *shrug*