Yes there are concret examples of what I'm talking about regarding the death penalty. T

For 110 inmates freed by DNA tests, true freedom remains elusive

By SHARON COHEN, DEBORAH HASTINGS, AP National Writers


Their time in prison surpassed 1,000 years, and all were wrongly convicted. Then they returned to lives that had passed them by.

An Associated Press examination of what happened to 110 inmates after their convictions were overturned by DNA tests found that, for many of the men, vindication brought neither a happy ending nor a happy beginning.

"It destroyed my family," says Vincent Moto, unjustly convicted of rape and imprisoned for 10 1/2 years in Pennsylvania. "It cost me over $100,000 to get exonerated. That was my mom and dad's money to retire. They're struggling. I'm struggling." Moto, a 39-year-old father of four, says his kids suffered psychologically and he still has nightmares of prison. He survives on odd jobs, welfare and food stamps. "I have to live with these scars all my life," he says.

Richard Danziger is even less fortunate. Wrongly convicted of rape and sentenced to life, he suffered permanent brain damage when his head was bashed in by another inmate. Danziger was released in 2001 after he served 11 years in Texas. Now, at age 31, he lives with his sister, Barbara Oakley. "He basically gets up, watches TV, goes to the park, and that's the extent of his day," she says.

Lesly Jean, a 42-year-old former Marine imprisoned in North Carolina for a rape he did not commit, struggles to rebuild his life.

"You know that old saying, 'When someone knocks you down, you need to get back up'? Well," he says, "sometimes it's not that simple to get back up."

That's especially true when the released men find themselves in a new world where they carry few up-to-date job skills, limited education, and heavy, if not bitter, hearts. For many, being set free doesn't mean freedom.

In reviewing the cases of the 110, all men, the AP found:

- About half had no prior adult convictions, according to legal records and the inmates' attorneys. While some were picked up for questioning because they were known to police, many had never been in trouble before.

- Eleven of the men served time on death row; two came within days of execution.

- Slightly more than a third have received compensation, mainly through state claims. Some have received settlements from civil lawsuits or special legislative bills. For others, claims or suits are pending; and some had lawsuits thrown out or haven't decided
whether to seek money.

- The men averaged 10 1/2 years behind bars. The shortest wrongful incarceration was one year; the longest, 22 years. Altogether, the 110 men spent 1,149 years in prison.

- Their imprisonment came during critical wage-earning years when careers and families are built. The average age when they entered prison was 28. At release, it was 38.

- Their convictions follow certain patterns. Nearly two-thirds were convicted with mistaken testimony from victims and eyewitnesses. About 14 percent were imprisoned after mistakes or alleged misconduct by forensics experts. Nine were mentally retarded or borderline retarded and confessed, they said, after being tricked or coerced by authorities.

Finally freed - by determined lawyers or their own perseverance - the men were dumped back into society as abruptly as they were plucked out. Often, they were not entitled to the help, such as parole officers, given to those rightfully convicted.

"The people who come out of this are often very, very severely damaged human beings who often don't ever fully recover," says Rob Warden, executive director of Northwestern University School of Law's Center on Wrongful Convictions. "Lightning strikes, they come out," he says, "and they're in bad, bad shape."

The last names of many of the people mentioned above speaks to it being a racial issue more often than not.

The abortion debate will be settled a little bit after teenagers learn how to keep their pants on. Are all abortions limited to teenagers, course not, but they are the main focus.
As for adoption, it's not a win all scenario. Yes, there are people lining up to adopt. From here in the states, and from other countries as well. And, if the kids are adopted at a young age, they do fairly well. Youll note that orphanages are pretty busy with kids. A lot of them don't get adopted. They get their education and take what their backgrounds gave them and move with it. I don't know much else except that.
Sure, proper sex ed is more than a good idea, but it's not a end all answer. Teenagers, being teenagers, make mistakes. Some mistakes are more costly than others. SOme people, they are responsilib, they do their best, and what happens, happens. There are other kids who, in my opinion, would have been better off not being born. They deserve much better, and they don't get it. And, then their kids deserve the same,

I do so get tired of the superficial arguments when it comes to this debate. There are so many and many are complete nonsense. This is not a specific indictment, just a general preface.

Personally, I am not religious at all, and derive my beliefs from knowledge and reason. I am, fundamentally, pro-life. I do not approve of it for cases of rape or incest. I do not approve of it unless there is a clear danger of the woman's life (as in imminent) and that a doctor should be present if there is any hope of saving the child.

I believe Roe should be overturned and that should be given to the states to do with as they see fit. And no, this will not turn abortion into a criminal act overnight, and might actually be loosened depending on the state you live in.

-The argument that Pro-life is wrong because we are forcing our morality on another is totally baseless. It seems that morality in the sense of stealing or murder is somehow ubiquitous, yet fails to be labeled as what it is. Morality forced on the whole.

While I'm not equating those acts with abortion, it stands to reason that morality CAN be forced on another, and rightfully so, at times.

-The idea that because we live in a twisted and selfish world, we should save these children from the pain of existence is truly sad. While it's certainly possible that they may have poor upbringings, to say the least, it is not set in stone.

This also removes the fortitude of the child/person, some of whom wilt in the best of circumstances, some of whom rise from the ashes of terrible lives to give substance to others.

That is not something that can be used in this debate because the variables are simply too enormous.

-In my mind, the real debate is not abortion at all, but the definition of life. This simply isn't something that we can quantify at any point in our lives, let alone for a fetus. We can say heartbeat, brain activity, conception, birth, etc, but we really don't know when life begins because we are ignorant.

Nevertheless, I'm of the belief that we should always work to err on the side of life, since it's the most important thing you will ever possess.

-Adoption is a key element in this. Not overly large, but certainly key. I'm of the impression that we should begin to open adoption more. While the system will never remotely resemble perfect, we can be more reasonable in placing children.

Many of the same religious folks that are against abortion, also oppose gay adoption. This to me is silly for many reasons, the least of which is that I'd much prefer a child have something more permanent than something more temporary.



If you'd like to discuss any of my points, please do (neatly please).

If you want to be badgering or get into mean-spirited debate, don't bother.

Let's seek for a higher level of discourse, maybe this thread can be a little better than all the others covering this debate.

The long awaited return of KJ is at hand

Thanks
KJ

Originally posted by FlyersFan

That's not exactly true.

The waiting list for babies is very long. When we started the process we were told it was an 8 year wait. We ended up going overseas (Bolivia) because we didn't want to wait 8 years.

It has nothing to do with 'better babies'. It has to do with not wanting to wait for 8 years. And yes, we were very much open to inter-racial adoption. But the states don't like to do that sort of thing.

and.....you'd be willing to wait the 6 years if it meant less abortions???
my concern in this is really more in the line of the women's health...that she remains healthy enough to continue to fullfill the obligations she alteady has. that she doesn't end up like that nearly blind lady in poland, impaired with a bunch of kids she still has to take care of. if a mom with three kids is gonna end up bedridden, or worse, by carrying a child full term, who's ganna be taking care of the kids? should hubby take off work to do it? are society's angels gonna come out of the woodwork and do it? or is it just not gonna get done? or......could it be, the state will come in, take the kids and throw them into foster homes where the foster parent will get sick of them complaining about headache and slap of patch full of narcotics on them and kill them? the baby's rights does not trump the hosts....there's no way it can. not anymore than I could have the right to go to your house and break both of your legs and send your family into that kind of turmoil.

Obama, the most liberal senator, certainly will not do anything about abortion.

I bet people wouldn't treat a dog this way, what have we become?

How cold? How heartless?

What will it take to get people to see what they are doing?

This has nothing to do with christianity, and everything to do with humanity.

Many cultures respect the the sanctity of life,

I have nothing to say, the VIOLENT act of abortion, perpetrated upon the unborn and the women, speaks for itself, it is a crime against humanity.

What does it say about our culture, when the most important political stand, is your stand on the murder of the most innocent?





[edit on 123030p://bTuesday2008 by Stormdancer777]

But he was unmoved, and cried: "If I am mad, it is mercy! May the gods pity the man who in his callousness can remain sane to the hideous end!"

H.P. Lovecraft

"The Temple"