Over 40 Million Dead Babies - Will Either Obama Or McCain Stop The American Abortion Holocaust?, page 5

reply to post by mental modulator

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Oh and sorry to tell you guys but women have been having abortions since the dawn of time...

There are many herbal root concoctions that can be ingested to abort.

And don't for get wire hangers and saline warm water.

None of you will ever, ever, ever be able to stop this practice, just as prostitution and drug use it would only go under ground...


I think if the same amount of energy was given to addressing the underlying issues
you would effect a great change.

You would have to cage or fix every single reproductively potent women before you could stop this, sorry...

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mental modulator

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However I do not believe my country has a right to tell anyone what to do with their own bodies.

...which, as I argued in the post above, is an invalid argument, as the unborn child is a genetically unique, distinct individual. Your point is oft-repeated, but factually incorrect: the child is not part of the mother's body, it is dependent on it.

Well first off, yes, I think up inside of of womens Vagina is her business and hers alone.

Second I am not "factually incorrect", I believe that the umbilical chord is connected to both hence it is a part of her body and at the same time its is dependent upon "her".

Is your arm a part of your body???

reply to post by mental modulator

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None of you will ever, ever, ever be able to stop this practice, just as prostitution and drug use it would only go under ground...

That's just a 'if you can't beat them, join them' argument. So much for moral fibre. Not to mention the fact that drug use and prostitution are illegal, and making them legal would only increase their availability, increasing demand. By your logic legalizing abortion has kept it under control. In numeric terms this is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. In terms of medical safety, killing another individual in a sanitized manner may seem to benefit the mother on first examination. In reality it is frequently attended by serious long-term detrimental effects on the mother's psychological health.

I think if the same amount of energy was given to addressing the underlying issues you would effect a great change.

If abortion were again made illegal over a hundred million lives would be saved within a couple of years (worldwide).

You would have to cage or fix every single reproductively potent women before you could stop this, sorry...

Nothing but another straw man argument. No-one claims abortion could be stopped 100%. In the case of the drugs trade, it was never made illegal with the expectation it would thereby be stamped out completely. It was a case of protecting people from harm. So with any law prohibiting abortion.

reply to post by pause4thought

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What are you saving them for?

reply to post by Sleuth

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I would prefer a woman have the procedure done legally and safely in a facility designed for the purpose than resort to having it done in some filthy back room by a butcher who doesn't know what he's doing. Thousands of women lost their lives over the years to the latter.

Many hundreds of millions of children have lost their lives due to the legalization of abortion. I therefore see the balance of suffering differently.

reply to post by Sleuth

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What are you saving them for?

Life.

I do not believe anyone has the right to deny an individual their life. Or to end it violently.

reply to post by mental modulator

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I own my existence to this and like it or not without that abortion some seventy plus years ago I would not be here in this moment.

I respect you for providing such a frank admission.

Please permit me to respond:

1) This would tend to mitigate against you being able to balance the arguments impartially.

2) If your grandmother had not had that abortion and been left sterile, other individuals may well have been born to her.

3) Who's to say 'you' would not have been born at another time, with another genetic makeup? (Pretty deep, hey?)

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mental modulator

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None of you will ever, ever, ever be able to stop this practice, just as prostitution and drug use it would only go under ground...

That's just a 'if you can't beat them, join them' argument. So much for moral fibre. Not to mention the fact that drug use and prostitution are illegal, and making them legal would only increase their availability, increasing demand. By your logic legalizing abortion has kept it under control. In numeric terms this is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. In terms of medical safety, killing another individual in a sanitized manner may seem to benefit the mother on first examination. In reality it is frequently attended by serious long-term detrimental effects on the mother's psychological health.

I think if the same amount of energy was given to addressing the underlying issues you would effect a great change.

If abortion were again made illegal over a hundred million lives would be saved within a couple of years (worldwide).

You would have to cage or fix every single reproductively potent women before you could stop this, sorry...

Nothing but another straw man argument. No-one claims abortion could be stopped 100%. In the case of the drugs trade, it was never made illegal with the expectation it would thereby be stamped out completely. It was a case of protecting people from harm. So with any law prohibiting abortion.

Ok it is the if you can't beat um join um arguement! Yes it is 100%.
Regardless you cannot stop this, it WILL go underground.
Don't blame me, I am not getting an abortion and I am not performing one.

Criminalize it here fine... What is to stop you or a thousand of you from a gal driving across the boarder to mexico, flying to India, going to an alley downtown?

Answer me this? How would you enforce this???

PLEASE???

reply to post by Sleuth

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Is that right? Exactly how do you see it?

You have argued that thousands of women suffered through illegal abortions. I have argued that hundreds of millions of children have suffered through legal abortions. I therefore do not see that the argument that women have suffered through illegal abortions outweighs the cost in children's lives.

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by mental modulator

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I own my existence to this and like it or not without that abortion some seventy plus years ago I would not be here in this moment.

I respect you for providing such a frank admission.

Please permit me to respond:

1) This would tend to mitigate against you being able to balance the arguments impartially.

2) If your grandmother had not had that abortion and been left sterile, other individuals may well have been born to her.

3) Who's to say 'you' would not have been born at another time, with another genetic makeup? (Pretty deep, hey?)

For your 1. I have never even put two and two together, YOU inspired me...

2. I agree but how can any of us know? I have no names or reference points

3. Your right, at the same time one could argue that this was gods plan, for
I have a specific purpose right here right now.

reply to post by mental modulator

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Criminalize it here fine... What is to stop you or a thousand of you from a gal driving across the boarder to mexico, flying to India, going to an alley downtown?

Answer me this? How would you enforce this???

PLEASE???

The 'it would be difficult to police' argument is not a moral argument. Whether or not babies are aborted is.

One aspect of an effective law would be education. Much of the current acceptance of abortion is based on ignorance of facts, such as that babies, not cells are being killed, and that the mothers very often suffer long-lasting psychological trauma. If such information were no longer suppressed, the demand for abortion would decrease very significantly, I believe.

reply to post by mental modulator

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Your right, at the same time one could argue that this was gods plan, for
I have a specific purpose right here right now.

It's great that we having a reasoned debate about this, not a slanging match, which is what can easily happen.

I could beat around the bush here, but for the sake of brevity I'll cut to the chase.

One of the direct ancestors of Jesus Christ was a prostitute: Rahab. This does not mean that it was God's plan for Rahab's life that she live this way, just that God loves sinners, and is willing to forgive, restore, and bless them.

She is held up in the Bible as a great example of faith. Boy does God love people, warts and all!

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by Sleuth

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What are you saving them for?

Life.

I do not believe anyone has the right to deny an individual their life. Or to end it violently.

Oookay, hotshot.

My mother got preggers her first semester of college in the 50's. She was on track for a medical career like the rest of the family. Obviously, that didn't pan out. She got the boot and the parents shuffled her off to one of those happy hideaway homes for unmarried, but expectant mommies.

Out pops the kid and up for adoption it goes. Mom's free, right? WRONG. She's damaged goods now because this is the 50's and people can't pop their heads out of their a**es. Mother Church is breathin' down their necks and crackin' the ole whip.

So, Mum's got to disappear. The parents ship her out of state. She gets married to an abuser who gives her one postage stamp a week to write her folks and so little money to eat while she's pregnant that she calls my brother The Hershey Bar Kid.

That's right. She survived on shoplifted meat and Hershey bars while she was pregnant with him. It's a wonder he ended up a civil engineer.

Anyway, she has him and the BS continues. Finally, she gets pink-slipped for the furniture, but the old man is still buying his cigarettes and booze and he's still smacking her around.

She said she had a great view of some mountain out west, but she wasn't going to have it much longer. She got to the point where she was going to either stab him or leave him. So, she waited for him to fall asleep and she swiped another stamp out of his wallet and wrote her parents. She asked for a one-way ticket home.

They sent it. She used it.

When she got home she was a different woman. She was very angry. My grandmother said she should have gone straight into psychiatric care but, for whatever reason, she didn't. I don't think they had the heart to do it to her.

She was very violent and physically and psychologically abusive. She had two more kids over the next few years, my sister and me.

She routinely beat the snot out of us whenever she got pissed off and sometimes for no reason at all. She constantly told us we were worthless and stupid. I almost lost an eye when she hit me with the business end of a belt. She told me I shouldn't have ducked.

Our eye doctor's daughter was a friend of mine. After that incident she was no longer allowed to associate with me. I was still too young to understand why.

We sibs are all middle-aged now and we're all royally screwed up. I've been in therapy for 15 years and I've been taking head meds just as long. My brother and my sister refuse to face their demons.

Thing is, O Wise One, countless times over the years, dear old Mum would tell us, and we sincerely believed and wished we could turn back the hands of time to accommodate her, that if she had had a C H O I C E things would have been SO different. But she didn't.

And, O Wise One, I can't tell you how many times I wished I'd been an abortion when my eyes were black or my a** was black or my fingers were broken or my heart or my mind were Osterized by her tongue.

I can disassociate faster than you can flip a light switch. You don't get there without a little serious mindscrewing. Leap down that rabbit hole some time, then tell me what you know about suffering.

Forty million dead babies? I'll tell you what the number means to me. That's 40,000,000 children who will never know the kind of horror I knew because their mothers had a C H O I C E. That's 40,000,000 kids who aren't punching bags for 20 years of their mother's anger and frustration over dead hopes and shattered dreams.

LONG LIVE ROE VS. WADE

PS: She broke my leg before I hit two, so I'm not talking namby-pamby slap-me-around crap. Understand the seriousness of my post before you reply to it.

[edit on 9/1/08 by Sleuth]

reply to post by Sleuth

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There are laws against starving a woman, (Pregnant or not)
there are also laws against beating a child.
So, who's to blame?
Many people have questioned why they were ever born, I know I used to, till I met Jesus.

[edit on 1-9-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by Sleuth

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Sleuth, I just wish I could put my arm on your shoulder and weep with you.




This world is messed up well & good. I too know what suffering is. I don't want to lay it out in public, but I may U2U you just to clarify that I ain't kidding. All the same I will in no way seek to belittle all that you have said. I am appalled.

What I perceive as the root of the tragedy is one thing: lack of love. Any 'church' that intervened in a negative way was totally wrong. No excuses.

A neighbour of ours in her early teens got pregnant. I showed nothing but respect for her mother who reacted by offering to keep her child, coming grandchild and take her (unmarried) partner into the home. Love alone reflects Christ's attitude, which is what the Church is supposed to be about. Churches that don't may be political or have some other agenda, but they are not Biblical.

I can only add that the further a person is from God, the more likely they are to abuse someone. God, and His Church (the unseen collection of the true disciples of Christ across the denominations) are about mercy, compassion, forgiveness and a love of a quality unknown apart from what Christ does in a person's heart.

Knowing that love breaks every cycle of abuse. That is the testimony of countless millions who've known abuse and been enslaved by drugs, alcohol, prostitution or anything else you care to mention.

I truly, sincerely empathize with you.

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