It's time to put an end for the call of proof and evidence

What's up boys and girls? I want to make one simple point at something that has been going on ATS for as long as I've read the site.

It doesn't matter if you are one of the minority genuinely looking for proof or one of the majority who uses the "show me proof or you're wrong" technique, one thing will hold true forever:

Everything in this existence, on this planet, has been derived from imagination.


It took somebody to think of everything that we've ever known from day one and where did that come from? You guessed it.

Want to know the only thing you can truly prove on this planet? Consciousness. And yet man has no way of measuring it. Imagine that? (get it?)

So anyone that is truly looking for proof, you can only find it within yourself. Anyone that provides a claim and is refuted with the "call for proof" speech, don't bother. Unless you've run into one of the very few legitmate debunkers, odds are it's a troll/mole/dis-info agent struggling to sway the opinion of those reading even though they end up making a swing and a miss.

I must say that ATS has helped shaped my consciousness significantly as there are many brilliant minds that contribute in phenomonal ways. But, the more you focus on the consciousness and less of the third dimensional BS that we tend to become mired in (and I'm referencing the global conspiracy), the farther your life will expand.

Don't deny the ascension process, it is your ticket out of here.

Much love, light, and prosperity
UL

"Proof" doesn't exist. Why? Because ultimately, each and every one of us is convinced based on our flawed, biased, faulty, subjective interpretation... based on our expectations, prejudices, and the availability and/or lack of evidence.



A mother of 64 years old hears on her death bed her daughter say "why didn't you stop him?"

She replies "I didn't know."

"But you walked in on it. How could you not know mom, how could you not know?"



Sometimes we choose not to see.

While I admire your sentiment, you and I both know it will never stop. Our catch cry here “Deny Ignorance”(not “Deny Arrogance” which should perhaps be considered) and that is what many will claim is all they are doing in asking for evidence. Not only that but I think the call for evidence is very important especially here otherwise any absurd claim can be made and many less informed will accept it blindly and become even more misguided.

As many have already said it is up to the person making the claim to provide sources or evidence but if it is made clear that the statement is a theory or personal opinion then yeah, let it be or at best ask for clarification on the thought process in order to further develop the idea or bring some sense or reality to it.

Imagination is a fantastic thing and it helps us to interpret the information presented and can be used to shed a different light on the subject. Even the most tired and flogged topics, but we also need to be careful to take thing to far and make them less acceptable to others.

I actually came here to tell you to just leave the debunkers alone because without them we would still be stuck back in the late 80's early 90's swimming throught the rampant imaginings of the New Agers with all the higher light anwsers for taking peoples money and leaving them with a very human, sub New age crushed spirit.

But let me say this instead, I do agree with you.

I thought it was worth adding that the proof seekers also serve a great purpose in helping the claimant think their thoughts through even more thoroughly. I had an instance where I had made a claim and was ‘forced’ to explain myself better and in doing so I learned a lot more about the subject and was able to convince myself (and hopefully others) that I was correct.

Vikingant: I definitely agree with what you're saying. The call will never stop but sometimes it's put in ways that are simply argumentative. Posing questions to raise the level of awareness between people in regards to a subject is different imo. Thats the dialect that needs to be heard for divergent opinions to be opened up to one's thought process. When I see people asking for proof, it's most often not put in that manner.

Antar: I like the last sentence you wrote. You're right about the debunkers and specfically in regards to the subject you brought up. Like I said before, contrary opinions are beneficial to the mind.


I guess what my point in all this is, is that 1+1 does not necessarily equal 2. It can equal many things but I believe the majority of people would say that's the only answer. Any answer we personally derive for that equation is our own, whether we thought it ourselves or took the opinion of someone else. Regardless, that proof has only stemmed from imagination and nothing else. So if we share imaginative thoughts instead of demanding proof, we might accel much more in our quest to "Deny Ignorance".

Peace

No proof needed ?


Uhhhhhhhh ok. Not.


Sorry thats an argument that should die at birth. If you say some thing that you 100% stand by, you have to have proof or nobody will listen and take you seriousely.

I would however take a UFO report from a police Officer / Fire Fighter / Airline Pilot at face value because of what a person has to lose.

If your thought is followed, we would never get any where. Words without proof is conjecture i.e. likely to be true but as yet UNPROVEN.

Originally posted by Universal Light
I guess what my point in all this is, is that 1+1 does not necessarily equal 2.

Good thing this is in Skunkworks; otherwise I'd love to see you rationally and logically explain what other result is possible from the equation of 1+1=x. I will crush up and eat this LCD monitor if you can show that 1+1 might equal more or less than 2.

Thanks

1+1 may equal 11 depending on the criteria attached to the figure +, it may mean that the two numbers should be added to each other or it may mean the two symbols should be used in conjunction, giving the result 11.

anyhow, proof is perhaps an overused word on the site, i agree, however i wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, i think a request for evidence is reasonable enough. we'ld all love proof i'm sure, but realistically, we all know it's unlikely, these matters being conspiritorial in nature. evidence on the other hand should be easy enough to come by, otherwise how did you draw your conclusion.

Dan Tanna: You made my point exactly. How can you prove anything when it all derived from imagination on the first place?
Of course everything is conjecture. Everything has originated from someone's mind.

MrPenny: 1+1 can equal whatever you want because it's based on your perception. Example, let's say you have an apple in one hand and an apple in the other. In theory, if you added them together you have two. But do you? How many seeds are in each apple? If I have seven seeds in one apple, don't I really have more than one apple in my hand? What about the amount of vibrational energy located in the apple? Is that equal to one? Am I even holding an apple or do I call it something else even though the rest of the world says it's an apple? It all comes down to your perception which is derived from your imagination or someone else's.

Pieman: I definitely should have thought about the context between evidence and proof. I was using the words interchangably when ultimately, I agree with how you defined them more. Still though, evidence that you provide to back up your opinion may be satisfactory to you, but others may still demand more. I hate to be repetitive but where do we draw conclusions from anyways? Things that we have substantianted to be truths in this world? I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to see the other side of this.

Originally posted by Universal Light
If I have seven seeds in one apple, don't I really have more than one apple in my hand?

Uh.....no. You have an apple and seven seeds. My testicles are loaded with spermotozoa, yet the census bureau only counts me.

Originally posted by Dan Tanna

No proof needed ?


Uhhhhhhhh ok. Not.


Sorry thats an argument that should die at birth.

I agree with this 100%. Why is this thread even here? ummmmm okay, I guess I'll stop asking people for proof when they tell me Xenu is coming...*makes jerk off motion with hand*
With no proof, we'd have thousands of John Lears running around ATS. And I don't know about you, but I don't think that's a good thing.

DENY IGNORANCE, DEMAND PROOF!

[edit on 5/21/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

reply to post by Mad_Hatter


I myself, don't even care if it's empirically "proof". At the minimum, I expect a poster who offers evidence be able to relate how the evidence supports the idea. And not simply dump some vaguely connected links, expecting the reader to "think outside the box". Which I invariably take as an excuse for not having any idea what they're trying to hypothesize; other than a meme that they've encountered on the Intarnets.....

Mr Penny: Well if you define your life off of the census bureau, that's your choice. IMO 1 apple contains more than just the apple itself.

What about the rest of the questions I proposed?

BTW, the crush my LCD monitor and eat it comment gave me a good laugh.


Mad Hatter: You're missing the point. People can throw around whatever crazy theories they want. Whether you absorb them or not is your opinion to do so. The point is that you cannot prove anything since it was all created from imagination in the first place. I keep saying this but how come no one who disagrees has addressed the main point yet?

I am not questioning the need for proof. I am questioning the point of having proof if you understand the imagintaive origins of the very proof you're asking for?

But if you state that proof is subjective, then what is the reason for posting any idea/opinion - they are also subjective. If the reason is just to show what a rich imagination this person has - that is great but pointless. If it is to present a "raw" idea, then argument is the best way to have it analyzed. And each side uses his/her experience and understanding throwing facts (or often non-facts) around.
Simple "convincing" other people is not included in reasons since no one can convince anybody else in anything because "proofs" are subjective. I guess that throughout human history nobody really convince anyone else by using those irrelevant and personal proofs and facts.

reply to post by Universal Light


I understand where you're coming from. The theory is originated from the imagination as well as the proof. Cuz everything is one in the same. And that may be so, but it is also important that while the theory is there, the evidence is provided. You're right, its up to the individual whether or not they accept it or not. Look at it this way:

If you go to the bank to withdraw money out of your account, they're not just gonna go, Okay, here you go. They're gonna ask for your ID as PROOF that you are who you say you are. Proof is a necessary thing.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by Mad_Hatter]

I'd like to coin a new phrase along the lines of "pseudo-science" and "pseudo-skepticism"....let's call it "pseudo-philosophy".

I didn't answer the other questions because one of them can't be answered; vibrational level of an apple?....since you don't know either, how about any arbitrary number? I say it's 2.114. The other question is simply nonsense; so what if you don't call it an apple?....the context of the discussion isn't about apples. The point was, whether it's an apple or any other item in the known universe, 1 unit, plus 1 unit, equals 2 units = 1 + 1 = 2. This is strictly in the mathematical realm...I'm not talking about logical operators or string concatenation.

Originally posted by Universal Light
The point is that you cannot prove anything since it was all created from imagination in the first place.

Empty "pseudo-philosophy". How about if at the end of a 40 hour work week...your employer hands you a bright new U.S. one cent piece as fair exchange for your work. I'm willing to bet you'll be "proving" your rate of pay PDQ; despite your employer's assertions that you just "imagined" your pay scale.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by MrPenny]

I don't think I've ever asked anyone for proof, but on many occasions I've asked for the source of their information. Once I have the source I can decide for myself if it's valid or even within the realm of possibility.

I don't think anyone should demand proof, but everyone should demand the source.

Then decide for themselves.

Originally posted by MrPenny
I will crush up and eat this LCD monitor if you can show that 1+1 might equal more or less than 2.

Thanks

Would you like fries to go with that monitor?

Synergy.

Synergy (from the Greek syn-ergo, συνεργός meaning working together, circa 1660) pp refers to the phenomenon in which two or more discrete influences or agents acting together create an effect greater than that predicted by knowing only the separate effects of the individual agents. It is originally a scientific term. St. Paul used the word in his Epistles (Rom. 8:28; 1 Cor. 3:9) to illustrate a dynamic conception of human, divine and cosmic cooperation: "I did the planting, Apollos the watering, but God made things grow…We are fellow workers (synergoi) with God; you are God's farm, God's building."

Sometimes 1+1 does equal more than two.

Synergy (from the Greek syn-ergo, συνεργός meaning working together, circa 1660) pp refers to the phenomenon in which two or more discrete influences or agents acting together create an effect greater than that predicted by knowing only the separate effects of the individual agents. It is originally a scientific term. St. Paul used the word in his Epistles (Rom. 8:28; 1 Cor. 3:9) to illustrate a dynamic conception of human, divine and cosmic cooperation: "I did the planting, Apollos the watering, but God made things grow…We are fellow workers (synergoi) with God; you are God's farm, God's building."

With all due respect mrwupy....please note the plurality indicated in your quoted text. Ironically, you may have brought oranges to an apple discussion....heh.

I'm still confident my monitor is not the "soup du jour".....