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posted on Apr, 4 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by Neiby

I think the problem is that we "attack" your religion and you respond by attacking *us*. Big difference. All I ask is for rational debate, but that seems to be impossible around here.

I would actually be all for eliminating any religion threads entirely. There's just no point to them. Let the believers go to their own websites and discuss that stuff. It has no place on a public mixed forum. Discussions never go anywhere worthwhile.


Neiby

You just proved what assess some of us Atheists can be.
YOU now have decided that religion threads no place on a public mixed forum? How is that again? Where is separation of Church and “public mixed forum” in the constitution again?

Seriously you come off like what you have to say is so much more important than what others have to say.


To some of us, Religion is the biggest conspiracy of them all.
This is the BEST place to discuss it.



You said:
>>"I think the problem is that we "attack" your religion and you respond by attacking *us*. Big difference."

I HIGHLY doubt you will ever realize that it IS the same thing. You do not have faith, so you wouldn’t know.. I did long ago. I know what they feel like; you do not (or you have forgotten if you had faith before)

You cannot "attack" someone’s religion without attacking him or her.


You also said:
>>” All I ask is for rational debate, but that seems to be impossible around here.”

To you “rational” probably means religion is stupid and shouldn’t exist, how can you have a rational debate with a religios person based on that?

Your comments just proved you are intolerant, somewhat ignorant towards belief and have at least a slight air of superiority about you and that is what infuriates religious people.
Yes, many of them come off the same way, but you cannot not fight fire with fire if you want to “educate” or change hearts and minds.

Atheists are whiners, we whine about everything, all societies ills are due to religious morons.. all evil is religion based.. on and on blah blah blah, is it any wonder why they do not want to bother even talking to us and when they do, they just roll up their sleeves for a fight?




posted on Apr, 4 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD


That is a most excellent question, Humble One. Another member and I had been discussing this earlier and he made a fine point. I don't know much about you, HO, but this other member and myself do not necessarily believe in extra terrestrials. So do we go into the UFO forum (almost exclusively) to do nothing but tell those who frequent that forum that aliens do not exist, that they are all delusional, and make it our mission to nay say everything that comes along, etc.? Of course not. How silly.

I let him know that is how I view the Survival forum. Frankly I don't get their paranoia (for lack of a friendlier term) so I leave them alone and do not invade their little corner by doing nothing but criticizing them or referring to their behavior as hysteria.

Why don't we do such things? I think it comes back to feeling threatened and unsure of your beliefs. In my opinion, they are trying to convince themselves more than convince us. Not saying they should stay out of the forums- it is their right to be here and you don't have to be religious to enjoy a good religious conspiracy on ATS or to engage in faith discussion on BTS. Everyone is welcome. But I do question the motives of those (and MIMS is not one of them) who have admitted their sole reason of being here is to poo-poo religion and the concept of a supreme being. It's puzzling behavior, to say the least, until you understand it from a spiritual perspective.


That is like the perfect paradigm AshleyD. You are correct, I really don't believe in UFO's. Yet I don't go into those threads to bash the believers, there's just no point to it.

So yeah, like you said, it's puzzling behavior.


I don't know much about you, HO,


C'mon, I know you didn't do that by accident.



posted on Apr, 4 2008 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by thehumbleone
C'mon, I know you didn't do that by accident.


Ah poop! Yes I did, actually. Humble One. Probably could have thrown the T in there to make it THO. Another Freudian slip, I suppose. Sorry!


Glad your alias isn't Wholesome Humble One Really Endears.




posted on Apr, 4 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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MIMS consider yourself throughly thrashed. Just kidding .

I do understand where you are coming from in your thread. A few words could be changed to make it appear from a Christian.

I do not go into CIR forum. I refuse to argue religion. It seems like a total waste of time and effort to me. If a Christian or Atheist is going to change their views I doubt it will happen in a CIR forum. It is more personal and happens within the soul of the believer or atheist.

Never would I insult a persons belief or non belief. You don't believe in God and I do. I am not ignorant , moronic or any other insulting name that some atheist might call me.

I believe it is important to understand that not everyone who calls himself a christian is actually a practicing christian. If a person says he is a christian and attacks you personally for being an atheist then IMHO that person is not being true to his faith.

IMO all posters that resort to name calling and hateful remarks concerning a persons belief or non belief should be dealt with by the mods.

When both parties of a discussion get angry it makes the whole discussion null and void. Nobody wins.

The person that was banned was my friend. She is an atheist and I am a christian. We never discussed our beliefs concerning God. It was pointless to do so. Still she remains my friend.

How can we ever solve our problems with food shortage, the economy, and other disturbing situations if we can not agree to disagree?

I suggest we put the past behind us and try to begin a healing process and work together to help make our world a better place.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by thehumbleone
 




Isn't is strange how people who apparently have no need for a god or religions, seem to spend the most time researching, debating and reading about it? There is some kind kind of weird psychological phenomenon going on that makes them obsessed with it.


Before I start I will admit I have absolutely no faith in well damn near all of humanity and mistrust all that I don't know and personally trust. As far as I am concerned most humanity isn't worth trusting.
That being said here goes my little list of possible pet theories as to why they do such. I am sure its a mixture with each person.

1) Ego. They feel that somehow their beliefs are wholly and deniably true and this gives them the right to "look down" upon others that don't agree with them. Which is why I have repeatedly asked them to prove scientifically and undeniably (as opposed to having options as to what could be true) their claims on the existance of such a being as a higher power/prime mover/god and have been meet with semantic fun and rhetoric if answered at all.

2) Power. Their religion like many others before it wants to grow in power. Before I continue on that vein allow me to ask you a question:

Have you ever noticed that in science anything that has even remotely sounds like a spiritual concept is called "pseudo-science" once that sounding is shown? Yet things that sound little more than a collective imagination running away session is accepted as totally scientific?
One particularly note worthy one I can think of is a scientist on that movie "What the BLEEP do we know?" makes statements that sounded like he sorta kinda agreed with what the movie was saying. And when it was brought to his attention he says "I am profoundly unsympathetic on attempts to connect quantum physics to consciousness."
Theories about how reality is just a giant computer simulation is perfectly acceptable.
Mention anything sounding like spirituality and LOOK OUT.

But I digress. It is my view that a lot of atheistic scientists see themselves as the priesthood of the new religion. Of course not in those terms. As I have noticed the amazing twists of semantics this group will go through to make their point sound valid even while in a half arsed away admitting they aren't right, in the same paragraph none the less.

Also as I have said before, look at the spread of Early Christianity in Europe and flip the words and you will see them saying alot of the same things.


But as I have said before. I don't feel this is all of atheism and completely respect any beliefs a person may choose to have. No matter what my feelings on them may be.
But when someone uses it as a premise to pretend they are better than me.
I have a BIG problem with that.
Especially considering that as I also said before, a great deal of the bullcrap humanity generates is caused by his seeming inability to tolerate differences and greed rather than some concept that he CLAIMS is the reason.

Or should I say intolerance has been the catalyst for mankind to feed his or her greed.
*shrugs*
Just my two cents. NOW can I go to bed?
hehehe


[edit on 5-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



it's called contributing. the topic here isn't really MM, you just slandered her and i jumped to the defense of a member well respected on here.


Considering how you felt the need to mention her in your "conspiracy" against your beliefs.
It was contributing with the facts of that person. Considering the fact many found her abrasive and insulting to say the least.

It doesn't cease to be contributing just because you don't like how its going.

Just to remind you where you brought it up in the OP:


ever since the most prominent member of the atheist community on ATS...well, disappeared under controversial circumstances, to put it lightly (i think i might be censored if i put the truth about it here), things have gone downhill. there's nothing here to support us and we feel like upping and leaving to a place where people have actually decided to value the denial of ignorance instead of shunning it in place of tag team bashing.


Simple fact of the matter you have absolutely no problem bashing others but when the shoe is on the other foot you scream. And you have no viable good excuse out of that one.

I acknowledge the fact that you seem to think calling people's beliefs delusions or various other insults is perfectly fine. But I think its telling that you cannot deal with it when the tables are turned.

No one is out to get you. Most (like myself) could care less what you chose to believe. But when you feel you have the right to cast such insults that you REPEATEDLY cast. I have a problem with that.

And I applaud the mods in dealing with people that continually do such as they have. Even when I am sometimes one of those that in his passion crosses the line and gets chastised, like I most assuredly have been in the past.

[edit on 5-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by gormly

You cannot "attack" someone’s religion without attacking him or her.


You also said:
>>” All I ask is for rational debate, but that seems to be impossible around here.”

To you “rational” probably means religion is stupid and shouldn’t exist, how can you have a rational debate with a religios person based on that?

Atheists are whiners, we whine about everything, all societies ills are due to religious morons.. all evil is religion based.. on and on blah blah blah, is it any wonder why they do not want to bother even talking to us and when they do, they just roll up their sleeves for a fight?





is it any wonder why they do not want to bother even talking to us and when they do, they just roll up their sleeves for a fight?


gormly,, Can I buy you Car.?

Although I have said just about everything you have even down to the last line only I used the analogy of the "in your face" militant Atheist as a "punch in the face waiting to happen"



Your comments just proved you are intolerant, somewhat ignorant towards belief and have at least a slight air of superiority about you and that is what infuriates religious people.
Yes, many of them come off the same way, but you cannot not fight fire with fire if you want to “educate” or change hearts and minds.


Long ago, it seemed like Christian related threads would start and I had invariably would hear (again) the evil of religion and the Christians, (most) would end up masturbating their cerebral piano stuck in a quasi circle jerk of circumlocution and song. A spinning sonata of semantics.

I have seen Atheists express such drop dead common sense on Dawkins forum, always giving rise to the question "are you sure you're an Atheist".

That also enraged me that an Atheist was not even expected to even consider what matters to the Christians or theists without having their own core belief in question.

I warned Madd many many months ago, he wasn't "challenging our worldview or any of the other Christians but just pissing them off. I explained, as you have that you cannot insult belief in God without insulting the believer. I tried for months and warned he should not poke the bear. I remember saying in a very long post that I was tired of the suggestion we abuse our children raising them as Christians and having to be made somehow responsible for all the evil done in Religions name.

Acknowledging it didn't help, apologizing didn't help either and in fact was told where I could put my "xian apology." Again,, words to the effect a specific orifice found between the gluteal muscles.

Therefore, I started looking for Christians that did not turn the other cheek and could exploit the lesson they could not seem to grasp but by putting them through it. As whammy said, "they can dish it". I do not think I have ever said anything as vitriolic as Madd has said to me but he did seem to have a pet peeve about using Caps. Even the allegations he won't let die regarding my calling him a homosexual, I would wager anyone seeing that post would agree, not only did I not call him one but merely gave it as one of several reasons he was either hitting on me for that reason, or he actually believed I shouldn't be a bit upset for telling me I got my brains in my arse. To this day, he is still dredging it up as the one sided story where he is the victim saying I get away with murder. Between Ashley a MOD and myself,, have explained that I had no such immunity.

This has been the biggest problem and again Wraoth told him and I will tell him as I was in the last thread MM was in when she was banned yet that too was for no reason I mean MIMS is NEVER wrong. The other day, as wroath pointed out, a Mod proved unequivocally that he was IN FACT wrong about MM. However,, I see he STILL thinks he is right and that it was for no account reason like that silly post she made.

After reading your post,, I have to tell you ,,

I yelled at the top of my lungs,

Their IS a GOD!!!

ha ha ha


- Con

[edit on 5-4-2008 by Conspiriology]



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 


Hmm... You appear to bringing a lot of baggage to this conversation. You inferred a lot from my post that simply wasn't there. Do you feel the need to attack people so much that you flat out make up things to whine about? Apparently so.

Here is what I mean by rational debate. When one side presents an argument--with proof--the other side needs to rationally consider that argument and evidence. If either side--atheists or christians or whatever--dismiss any evidence out of hand simply because they already "know" they can't be wrong, then there is no point for the debate to even occur. Do you understand what I mean?

It is impossible to have a real discussion with someone who refuses to accept the mere possibility they might be wrong.

I wasn't insinuating that "my" topics are more important, I was just saying that religious topics tend to not go anywhere. Try reading through them. Most of them are like watching two people yelling at a brick wall that separates them. What's the point in that?

On the one hand, I guess it helps to get good information out into the public domain. But I just rarely see a religious discussion on a public board go anywhere when any of the participants are impervious to reason and evidence.

Are you, as an atheist, disagreeing with me that rationality is a nice thing to have? I honestly don't understand where your post came from. You attributed an attitude to me that I don't have and I'm curious about why you did that.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 


I forgot to address the other part of your diatribe. I used to be a Christian, of the radical hardcore fundamentalist Pentecostal type. I used to go to church several times a week, went to bible studies, played in worship bands in some very big churches. I went to a Christian university. I was a vehement young-earth creationist.

Again, your wild assumptions seem to have come from your own baggage, not my post. I do know what they feel, but that's precisely what I was addressing. It's exceedingly difficult to have a real, substantive discussion with someone who can't calmly and rationally discuss the topic. As soon as you question their religion, they take it as an attack on them and they respond with emotional personal attacks instead of with reasonable, logical arguments defending their stance.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 



Con, just gotta say I LOVE your avatar and your signature. LMFAO



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by thehumbleone
 


yes, let's encourage immature machismo of taking statements out of context for the purpose of an infantile attempt to defame.

woo ignorance!

con has no argument, so he's doing something to show it. he's given up the rational discussion.

sure, i could retaliate with quite a few of his statements, but i prefer to go for the arguments, not the person.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Lmao, there's no way those lines could possibly be "taken out of context."

The logic behind them is obvious. Have you ever considered becoming a lawyer? I think you'd do exceptionally well as one.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by thehumbleone
 


you know, i think there's a reason the mods had it removed just now...

in the context i was talking about particular threads in some of them

and honestly, one of them just isn't stupid, you'd have to have the blinders on to not understand what i meant with the quote about how i can call a belief stupid without saying the same for its believer

i don't think that one of my best friends is stupid, and i think his belief in his deity of choice is stupid. i value his opinions immensely and think he's one of the smartest people i know, i just think his one belief is stupid
i say the same thing about his opinion that cake is better than pie, i think it's stupid to say that pie is inferior, but i don't think him stupid for choosing cake.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I think the issue is that most religious people form a part of their identity from their religion. It becomes a foundation of who they are. If you attack that foundation, they take it as an attack on them. We feel like we're just sharing truth, rationality and enlightenment, but that is not how they perceive it.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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I taking no side on this matter, I'm merely just a spectator, but from what I can see Atheists hands aren't any cleaner than the Christians. I feel sometimes when you guys fight it has little to do with religion, and more with pride. Atheists feel the need to discredit peoples belief, Religious followers feel threaten and attack Atheists, and the cycle never ends. Its kind of like watching little kids fighting:

Christian: "I'm Right"
Atheist: "Nuh uh!! I'm Right"
Christian: *Gets frustrated and personal* "No, your just a big fat poopie head!!"
Atheist: *Cries, Gets Personal*



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


yes, let's encourage immature machismo of taking statements out of context for the purpose of an infantile attempt to defame.

woo ignorance!

con has no argument, so he's doing something to show it. he's given up the rational discussion.

sure, i could retaliate with quite a few of his statements, but i prefer to go for the arguments, not the person.


madd they are quotes! That was all! How can you say they are out of context when they haven't been said in the context of any argument? Do they embarrass you? You can quote anything I have said madd I would be honored. I just never say anything so fathoms deep as,,, well allow me to demonstrate why I don't see how they can be taken out of context.

You said; "Atheists have no belief"

Then you said: "I don't preach Atheism, I am just telling people about it"

If you have no belief,, What in Gods name are you telling them about??

So don't accuse me of taking anything out of context when the context contradicts itself in the same sentence.

Again, like wraoth has said and Ashley and now Gormely,, it is YOU that has the problem. If you can't stand seeing your own sound bytes, the same ones I have seen you use again and again,, then I figure maybe seeing them rotate before your eyes, you would see what we have all been trying to tell you. That when someone says tells a Christian that Atheism is not a religion by twisting the meaning of Theology taking out from the sublist of theistic branches of religion and philosphy,, you are doing it to confuse them. Theologians who study Religion and Philosophy know the of those religions come subsect theistic and Non theistic.

That means I don't tell someone Religion is the belief in God which is Theism, and since we don't believe in God we have no Religion hence the "A" in A-Theism.

That isn't Right though,, you see they are ALL religions and divided by their theistic philosophy. "Pan-Theism" is one Mono-Theism is another, the distinction is not whether one is a Religion and one is not for they ALL ARE Theistic, and it is the "theism" that designates it a religion while the Greek or Latin part in front describes God type Gods type or no God type. Theism is a God Religion and A-theism is a Godless one but they are BOTH theism's. Otherwise, start calling yourselves Non Theistic having no ideology no worldview or Philosophy what so ever.

They won't do that though because we all know they have a worldview.

So I Imagine by now you have alerted the Mods (again) that Con is using a signature quoting Maddness (no pun) and for some reason (as i know you can't explain why) some reason it bothers you.

For some reason it bothers you when you see yourself say "I have never been beat on this forum" or that you were calling a post names and not the person who wrote it. Like you did calling wroath post a troll.

BTW, Madd,, Wraoths post wanted me to tell you,, "sticks and stones".

You know I read the rules on the signature I had and I really have no idea how it could have been in violation when I took pains to make sure they were your best and most thought provocative while at the same time making sure they had no expletives or personal attacks.

Unless seeing my own logic, posted in a sig made me want to eat my very own words,, I would be un ashamed as you should be you big lug.

I mean I could have used the quotes that led up to you accusing me of calling you a Homosexual as if it was some kind of accusation. When as we BOTH know,, those quotes I could have taken in their full page context and everyone would see how you just couldn't believe the FBI would do such a thing as take Atheist websites down for the hate and porn they had.

Now I will agree before you jump the gun like you do,, I agree the FBI doing that,, is rather questionable but to just slam me because you are never wrong and accuse me of lies three or four times in one post?

Now Madd,, which is why when you sent me that U2U calling me spitefull challening my masculinity or insisting that I have a vendetta against you.

I got to ask myself?? Who is the only one that has anything, any belief to actively attack? Which one of us, has the only belief in something?

Which of one of us got called a liar for not being able to prove the FBI took sites down asking me to show you the site.

Which one of us got called a liar for not being able to show the site that was no longer there? Yeah and do you know why I couldn't show you the site Madd??

The FBI took them down THAT'S why.

That doesn't mean you can start calling me a homophobe a bigot or use more of those convoluted excuses to as you put it ,, merely used a creative way to explain why my suppositions were lies or made up.

Because they come from my rectum?

Well madd,,

I got to say,, YOU might call it creative, I call it like, I see it


Furthermore, when it comes down to it, that has always been, what you have against me.

You see mad I DENY Ignorance while you,, someone I have apologised to on several occasions when I was wrong yet my Apology went Un-accepted because as we discover you don't forgive either.

Therefore, don't send me U2U's asking me if there is more wrong with me or am I just spiteful. You messaged ME,, I didn't message you.

You have not ever said you were sorry to me even when it was suggested by Ashley, and albeit I would accept it,, I don't expect it.

You cannot admit being wrong and is why I don't bother debating someone like that. It is also why I wanted you to see your very words rotate "I have never been beat" I bet that looked pretty arrogant didn't it.

Then again would anyone be surprised,,, if you said no.

It's ok madd,, like I said,,

I deny Ignorance,,

while you deny,

the truth







Love Con



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


and honestly, one of them just isn't stupid, you'd have to have the blinders on to not understand what i meant with the quote about how i can call a belief stupid without saying the same for its believer

i don't think that one of my best friends is stupid, and i think his belief in his deity of choice is stupid. i value his opinions immensely and think he's one of the smartest people i know, i just think his one belief is stupid
i say the same thing about his opinion that cake is better than pie, i think it's stupid to say that pie is inferior, but i don't think him stupid for choosing cake.


Madd,, please,, tell me what part of this you don't understand

When I say Drug use is stupid, it is the drug USER that feels affected and ashamed while the Drug does not acknowledge your criticism. Your intent can ONLY be to shame the drug user, unless of course you think you can hurt the drugs feelings. The same is true of The Christian and his belief in God. When you say "believing in God is Stupid, it is the believer that is affected and insulted not the belief for belief does not acknowledge your criticism and your intent can only be to insult the believer. This is now the SIXTH time I have given this very simple to understand explanation.


- Con



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by thehumbleone
 






i don't think that one of my best friends is stupid, and i think his belief in his deity of choice is stupid. i value his opinions immensely and think he's one of the smartest people i know, i just think his one belief is stupid
i say the same thing about his opinion that cake is better than pie, i think it's stupid to say that pie is inferior, but i don't think him stupid for choosing cake.


Actually, I think you should take some of your better pie and eat it...calling iit "humble pie". That's a word that doesn't seem to be in your scientific dictionary, I know. But you could use some, honestly.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 


Yup, you hit the nail right on the head.



posted on Apr, 5 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by thehumbleone
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Lmao, there's no way those lines could possibly be "taken out of context."

The logic behind them is obvious. Have you ever considered becoming a lawyer? I think you'd do exceptionally well as one.


Haha Don't give him any ideas!! LOL he is a pretty bright kid, it's his social apptitude interpersonal communications polish but I am certain he will master that eventually. When I started here his Vocabulary was modestly average and when I test his posts in writers softare, he is usually college level now.

It took a lot of time studying legelese just to figure out how he was so slippery that way. I called it "Teflon Doublespeak"

- Con


[edit on 5-4-2008 by Conspiriology]





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