Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by Šany
Refused (split up)
Neurosis (They're American too).
S.M.I.L.E. (Split up last Friday)
earthtone9 (rencently split up unfortunately)
Cubic Space Division
New Model Army (Although they've been around ages)
My Dying bride
Goldfrapp
Pop Will Eat Itself (split up a while ago though)
Wumpscut
Twin Zero
Anęmic (my band)
Killing Joke (been around ages too though)
Racebannon

See, a lot of that suff is common to me and most of the heavy music buffs that I know. We don't see it as underground. Wumpscut!?! Aren't they on DAC (Deutsche Alternative Charts ) from time to time? Wouldn't that make them not underground?

Note: I consider alternative and underground two different things.

I think it depends on which country you're in and how deep you dig, Wumpscut sure as Hell aren't mainstream in the UK and you won't find any reference to them anywhere unless you have a friend who's into them.
Like I said, my guitarist has loads more music than I do, he scours MP3 sites and such for new bands all the time, I'll see if I can get a list from him of good stuff.

Originally posted by nathraq
The music of the 50's/60's gets no play in my house. Boring, boring, boring. Life was so happy back then. No-one had any problems. All they could sing about was Rock Around the Clock, or She Loves You, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. (sarcasm)

Just my opinion

Oh, I totally agree with that. No Beach Boys or Dave Clark Five at my home. Or Neil Diamond
But you will hear the Righteous Bros. and the Rolling Stones.
rally think Mick should give it up, though. You know hwwhat I mean??>

I think the world (at least in America) was no longer a happy place after 11-22-1963!

Originally posted by Šany
I think it depends on which country you're in and how deep you dig, Wumpscut sure as Hell aren't mainstream in the UK and you won't find any reference to them anywhere unless you have a friend who's into them.

Ya, that was my point. Anything considered 'underground' is popular somewhere. It doesn't have to be mainstream it can be considered 'alternative' although the line is a bit blurred to me. The internet has really destroyed the notion of underground music (unless it is a new band just starting out) IMHO. Not that it's a bad thing or anything. I wouldn't be listening to half of the stuff that I do if I did not find it on the web.

Edit: As an example I would say that Bauhaus were once underground, but after selling probably millions of records over the years and being a staple in every goths cd rotation try, the concept of underground loses this foothold. Perhaps what you mean by underground, I mean when I say cult classic.

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by Jonna]

it's out there, yoiu just gotta' know where to look...

it won't be on MTV or Mainstream radio

It might be interesting to conduct serious research on the format and content of modern commercial radio. I've started doing so in a very informal way while driving in my car. I randomly select stations and try to categorize what I hear. Because there are so many stations and so many potential demographic audiences I'm surprised at the lack of variety on commercial radio. I always wonder what forces have created the desolate wasteland of commercial radio. I've noticed puzzling patterns in play lists. For example I hear the same very mediocre songs, decades stale, played repeatedly on many stations. Specific examples:

Mark Knopfler and Sting singing "I Want My MTV"
The Cars "Shake It Up"
Men at Work "Who Can It Be Now"

These artists all had some good songs, but you're not likely to ever hear them on radio. You only hear the most mundane and tedious material they've made.

part of the satanists plan to deny god given talent.

music is now the preserve of people that have no talent but massive ambition.

they sing and dance and model and parade around and are more famous for how they dress than their so-called music.

OH WOE is me!

Even 'Jesus Christ Superstar' is sounding good these days.

The younger generations music today is all about alcohol, drugs, and partying. It's rather annoying

Check out local bands. They're usually pretty unique.

Originally posted by pyxsul
The younger generations music today is all about alcohol, drugs, and partying. It's rather annoying

Rubbish.

The mainsyream music industry is like a cookie cutter. Everything looks and sounds the same. Music isn't an art, it's a business. All the talent now a days is in the indie scene. Basically, you won't hear any good music an the radio or on TV. You have to go out and look for it.

There's plenty of good music out there, real problem is the comericial music industry is owned by folks more itnterested in quick profi. Remember folks they are in business to make a profit and make their shareholders happy. Yes - I think they're shooting themselves in the foot which is why record sales are down, but they prefer not to look in the mirror & blame the internet instead.

They also own most of the radio stations.

Just like Hollywood movies once they find something that worked in the past they do it over & over with little or no creativity. That's why so much of the what you see in the major mediia is cute girls & guys using sex to sell cheap contrived & recreated music.

Yeah, there's lots of good stuff but most of it is not being marketed to you, so you have to look for it. The business model of the old recording industry has expired and I think in time they will fade and new methods of hearing about new good music will surface.

I like to think of myself as musically open minded- I can't play a note, but music litterally drives me through life. I listen toa lot of different stuff, from modern classical (Micheal Hoenig, Yoko Kanno) and jazz ( I was raised on Miles Davis and Chopin, oddly enough) to rock/alternative, metal and punk and taking a few detours around other stuff ( some gothic/industrial/darkwave electro, as well as an infantessimal amount of rap and bits and pieces from any number of subgenres). I'll give you this- old stuff is good. However, that's because only the best lasted and was remembered. Bahaus is good, and that might be considered old. Miles Davis is excellent as well. However, there is also the issue of REAL artists not getting recognition. Yoko kanno is an excellent composer, but there's barely anyone here who's ever heard of her. However, if you watch anime, you might have heard her work. She did the music to Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Escaflowne... quite a number of things. Ditto with Micheal Hoenig- he did the BG series of computer games (with Inon Zur taking voer for Throne of Bhaal). APC and Tool are excellent modern bands that can be considered mainstream.

I'll give you this- 90% of what's out there is image and hype, and those people aren't artists. Dig deep.

DE

I like a whole range of music. I listen to different styles of music depending on what mood I'm in (like most people). I can't just listen to one type of music, otherwise the music just becomes dull. A person should always diversify their taste no matter what it is. I can't stand "POP-ular" music, or Country - nothing is worse then someone singing with a fake southern accent, which is MOST of them. I don't even consider POP or Country a category of music.
There really are only a few categories of music, everything else are just sub-categories. I think Rock and Roll, Hip Hop, Electronica, Classical, and a few others are the main categories of music. Techno, Grunge, Goth, Country, Folk, Blues, POP (which is made up of many sub categories in of itself), Acid, Native, etc.... those are all sub categories of the main ones. Country is just a crappy form of rock. And a lot of music is put into the wrong category in the first place. I still don't know why Johnny Cash is almost always in the Country section - his stuff is real and shouldn't even be compared with the trite that is most Country.
Led Zeppelin has some good stuff, as was said though, they are overrated. I also think the Beatles are overrated. Their stuff just isn't that "timeless" in my opinion. It's played so damn much your ears begin to bleed. And how many times do they have to play John Lennon's "Imagine" on the radio? I do like the song, but I could also imagine it not being played (or I could stop listening to the crap that is FM radio and get Satellite)
There are only a few musicians that I can listen to over and over and over without getting sick to my stomach. I can listen to Queen all day long, now that was some creative shiite. The perfect voice of Freddie Mercury never ceases to amaze me.
I like Seal - his stuff is very creative, and the man writes his own stuff as well as plays the instruments, which gives you a thumb-up in my book.
The Cure is another killer band to listen to. Robert Smith's haunting voice accents the music being played.
Tupac is one of the few hip hop artist that doesn't come off as being fake to me (RIP - if he really is gone). I like the stuff he talks about and he's a damn fine poet. Busta Rhymes is another, his stuff is smoothly original.
Say what you will about Sting and the Police but they created some damn fine work. Sting has even put out some pretty good stuff in his solo career - although some of it gets played too much.
Trent Reznor (AKA Nine Inch Nails) has also added greatly to the music world. I can say I like about 95% of the stuff he has made. There are only a few groups where I can say I like all of their music, or even 50% of it.
There is an Electronica (sub-cat as Techno) group I like thats big in Europe called Scooter. A lot of their stuff is pretty simple but its the way it sounds and plays in your ears that makes it great. Its also fun to listen to and most of it can be great dance music.
Another musician I like is Nick Bracegirdle (AKA Chicane). He wonderfully composes his music via real instruments and synths.
Brian Transeau (AKA BT) also makes very similar music to Chicane, but his is much more diversified - and in my opinion is one of the best musicians out there today. He's known as the Maryland wonderboy for a reason.
As far as that studio made band Evanessence goes - pure crap. The news media and MTV (which I see on rare occasion to see the next batch of music idiots) talk as if they invented the music and that its the first time there has been a female lead singer to a rock band. That singer can't sing, she can't even hit a high note properly. Most of the singing sounds like one of those phone sex operators. As far as the musicianship goes, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3.
Lacuna Coil (an Italian export) has been around since 1996 and would be categorized as being the same type of music. Difference is: The female singer, Christina Scabbia, can sing, really sign. The band can write music, and really play their instruments. They have a sound all their own. Again, like Evanessence, they aren't the first band to do this - they just perfected it.
The Smashing Pumpkins is another great band.
Sarah McLachlan is a great singer/songwriter/musician.
Bach was a wonderful composer.
Pavarotti can sing.
Tears for Fears second album "Songs from the Big Chair" - pure genius.
Jerry Goldsmith is probably the greatest modern composer - very diversified in what he can create, without it sounding the same. James Horner and Vangelis come a close second, Elliot Goldenthal a third. Although Howard Shore has made some great stuff. Hmm, maybe I'd put Gustav Holst at the top. They're all great - I guess you can't really rank musicians that all create wonderful music.
I could talk about music all day. I've got a library of hundreds, even thousands of musicians in my head and the music they have made.
I still think the most underrated band of all time is Guns N' Roses. Their material is still the most original rock material to have ever come around - I have not heard anything like since. Its hard to copy something like Guns N Roses, heck, almost impossible. I won't even explain my own thoughts about them, I'll let one of the reviewers on Amazon.com do the explaining for me (his thoughts are my thoughts, exactly):

[[[[

The Strongest Pain Relief Money Can Buy, January 15, 2004
Reviewer: Douglas Rausch (see more about me) from Doylestown, PA United States
There is an energy in this album (along with the other pre Spag. albums) that can not be replicated. The stars lined up just right for a handful of times in the past 50 years, and included in the list of those to benefit is the GUNS N ROSES beast from 87-93. Although contemporary times always make the past look tame, there is still no denying the ferocious, controversial beauty that will probably always be associated with GNR.

I'm not in the generation that's supposed to listen to Guns. I was 11 when the Illusions came out, so that meant that while everybody was telling me that Kurt Cobain was the only thing that was cool, I was just discovering the TRUE POWER of music, which is highly inclusive of the mighty Guns. Also a classically trained pianist, let me say I am very open-minded. But regardless of society's pressure to keep up with the times, I still haven't heard anything since the Illusions that can offer such a profound release of anger, tension, stress, and hurtful emotion. Fans ferociously guard "Appetite..." as the definitive album, and there's obviously a whole host of good arguments for that - but although it was at the expense of the band's unity, I maintain that the Illusions pulled off every epic human goal that music can provide, justifying Axl's egocentric addiction to perfectionism. Here's the review of 1, which although it doesn't pull off the "greatest album of all time" -ness of 2, it is the biggest pack of a punch that good hard rock has ever been able to muster.

The songwriting, performing, attitude, musicianship - EVERYTHING - came together with "Appetite" - but now, with a few more dollars in their pockets, the Gunners could take that same vision and get the recordings polished to perfection. I conceed that that is "for better of worse," in that many people prefer a raw sound, and that appeals to many Appetite heads (and I'm one of them!) But during the Illusions recordings, magic happened; a very spiritual (partially demonic) soul got trapped into the tape, making these recordings transcend all laws of recording techniques, and when you listen to the metallic blues of "Dust N Bones", the more obscure "Bad Apples," or the bone-crunching epic "Coma," you can't help but bleed out all of your internal toxins. Music exists for a release (among other things), and no album has you dealing with your demons more intensely than Use Your Illusion I. Axl's lyrics read like a psychiatric report, which as I mention down below, wouldn't make sense if indeed they were a shallow party band. Indeed, this band was put here with a purpose.

Okay, so they weren't the BEST musicians around, but they weren't bad. And the group dynamic made up for the lack of technique many times over. Afterall, a strong element to the foundation of the band is punk, where attitude is all that matters. The fact that Guns had/have attitude PLUS other things to offer makes me say that that is the best thing you could try to get from any musician.

Which leads me right into the high compliment to this album's effective diversity. I play piano for a living, and Use Your Illusion 1 is like Appetite + piano and a few other things, which is why I hold 1 just a notch higher (not worth arguing about though). I could listen to the bluesy headbanging of "Dust N Bones" (and even more, 2's 14 years) all day long, jamming along on piano, and never want to go do anything else. The hypnotic electricity of this band should come in a bottle. Then there's "You Ain't the First," a really cool acoustic ditty, a royal "Queen-like" cover of Sir Paul's "Live and Let Die", the staple ballad "Don't Cry," the monstrously screaming metal of "Back off B@#$%", and the smash epic that needs no description, "November Rain." I put on a piano recital which, after the Beethoven was over, included a full orchestration of this epic, strings and all. A pretty bold move for a conservative music school. With regards to those saying that if 1 and 2 were combined into one solid (though how much more solid do you want?) album it would be much better... I'll concede only as far as "Double Talkin Jive" and "Perfect Crime," are concerned, which are the closest to filler that is on the first album (Slash's tasteful classical guitar licks notwithstanding). This album, especially when coupled with 2, has it all. Dave Matthews and Phish may open up their jams more, but they still leave you needing your Prozac.

It's funny how documentaries try to establish grunge as a return to seriousness after the partying of the 80's bands - but I never fell for grunge, and I've needed a boatload of musical anti-depressants in my life (who hasn't?). No, kids, Nirvana never really offered that much other than a meeting place for disillusioned teens. The magic of Guns was MUCH angrier, much more MUSICAL, and much more PROFOUND. [Why even mention the N word? Well as you should well know, "N" made it not cool to like GNR, which was a sad sad day for the future of the record industry.] But I digress... The characteristic style of randomly chosen subjects, let's say "The Garden" or "Dead Horse", holds up UNBELIEVABLY well today, and still tastes as fresh as it did a decade ago. And when it's all over, that is the true test.

The Epic to End All Epics, January 23, 2004
Reviewer: Douglas Rausch (see more about me) from Doylestown, PA United States
Easily tied with some other albums for "Greatest of All Time", "Use Your Illusion II" is the one review I kept putting off, not thinking I could ever be in the proper state of mind to give this piece of music the justice and worship that words can never express. Well, I've obviously started typing, so let's see what happens...

(Oh first of all let's get the "Appetite" and "My World" issues out of the way; yes, Appetite is wonderful and there's no reason to let any sort of comparison between these two albums impede the immense praise that is deserved by both. And yes, "My World" is an example of "WTF, Axl?????". HOWEVER, you have over 70 of the most well spent minutes of your entire existence to experience from this album before the final two minutes, so how DARE anyone let "My World" affect the reaction towards "Use Your Illusion II.")

Ok here we go. This album is epic (did I mention that?). When you are down and out, ready to give up, think all hope has gone, etc., etc..... you do NOT go to Nirvana. you do NOT go to Britney Spears. No, my friends (and enemies), you go to this album, track 11. There you will find the reason music exists. Heart and soul, blood and guts, tears, catharsis, anger, rage, emotion of the highest form, a purging of all of your demons: THAT is what will be injected into your veins when you listen to one of the greatest songs ever, "Estranged." Unfortunately, songs like this were a major reason for the sad (and painfully slow) breaking of the fellowship that was known as the mighty original Guns. Axl was (and is) a control freak that dictatorially directed how the music was going to be. His grand schemes exhausted and frustrated his cohorts, who felt they were losing their voices in the band. As tragic as the break has been, I will offer up the condolences that if an album's creation pays that very highest price that can be paid (short of death), atleast the album created is "Use Your Illusion II", and atleast it contains the song "Estranged."

If you liked Guns N Roses after 1993 (such as I did), you were CRUCIFIED by the public. There's a lot of moral wrongs in society, and I'm not going to start comparing Nirvana fans to terrorists, but I will say that the nineties gave us blatant evidence as to why not enough people are open-minded and think for themselves. The music of Guns N Roses - the very music that was irrationally chastised for being mindless, talentless and overblown - is some of the most gut-wrenching, fist-clenching, serious and thought-provoking music out there. Just LISTEN to what Axl's actually ranting about. Just FEEL what Slash's Les Paul is really doing to your soul. It all comes together with this album. I love the Beethoven 9th as much as the next guy, but the grand finale to "Estranged" is the most emotional music I've ever heard. It may be from a rock band, but the point is, it's from THIS rock band. Learning "Estranged" on piano is what made me what I am today - instead of quitting piano, I majored in it. Instead of laying down to die in front of the door of the past decade of musical B.S., I vowed to go to my grave defending the music that really reaches out to people, trendy or not.

More than the already unsurpassable amount of blessing must be given to the fact that this is not an album with just one sound. Guns pulled off the project of pure human emotion with diversity! "Estranged" itself winds around into different keys, with different themes, and different moods. A real journey of body and mind. But just about every other song is of the same ilk. "14 Years" was just as influential on me, schooling me on some serious blues rock. I've never felt more conviction from any band's live performance than from the studio recording of this song! The entire band really seems to be letting off some serious steam in this one, so make sure you let it get into your blood! And speaking of letting off some steam, how about "Get in the Ring?" This is THE quintessential anger song. While a simple punk band can only really ever deal with anger in one dimension, Axl and co. really let you into a web of emotional complexity with their ability to actually PLAY their instruments (sorry, some of you might not know what that is). Granted, some of the lyrics are more blatant than a sledgehammer ("When you're talking 'bout a vasectomy..." ), but these lines are always offset by more crafty, if intense, ones ("I sense a smell of retribution in the air"). It should be noted that if you're one to be offended at times, the skip button was invented for the song "Get In The Ring". Everyone else... rock on!

100 paragraphs each also go to "Civil War," "Breakdown," and "Locomotive," (not to mention the epic-ifying of a pretty basic Dylan tune, "Knockin' On Heaven's Door," and the alternate [better] lyrics for "Don't Cry," and don't forget Arnold ["You Could Be Mine"]!!!)...but I've made my point and Amazon only allows 1000 words. Just imagine "Estranged" done 10 times over and you've got the album...the MASTERPIECE.

Bottom line about the timelessness to these wonderful songs, this album is FRESH. While some bands' music does sound dated and stale, nomatter how many times I start up "Civil War," I feel myself taken to a new dimension. The songwriting, playing, band-chemistry, recording, mixing, timing.... it all comes together on this album better than just about any other. If you are in need of therapy, and/or if you like rock music, and/or if you are human, "Use Your Illusion II" is the all-purpose pinnacle. Thanks for reading.

]]]]

Anyways, music doesn't suck today - you just have to know where to look for good music. Expand your taste -don't stick to one category/subcategory of music. If all you listen to is top 40 crap, then thats all you're gonna get, crap. Don't get me wrong, some stuff in the top 40 is good, but most of it is just studio made material for the masses. The "song of the week." The stuff that people don't remember the lyrics or the music to months/years later. We all have different taste, but bad music is bad music. And it is possible to create a new sound in music that is all your own - just make it well enough that other people can't copy it or the copy it poorly (the smart people will be able to tell the real from the fake), like my favorite band of all time, Guns and F'n Roses.

True music can never die.

Originally posted by EmbryonicEssence
..... Don't get me wrong, some stuff in the top 40 is good, but most of it is just studio made material for the masses. The "song of the week." The stuff that people don't remember the lyrics or the music to months/years later. We all have different taste, but bad music is bad music. And it is possible to create a new sound in music that is all your own - just make it well enough that other people can't copy it or the copy it poorly (the smart people will be able to tell the real from the fake)

Thanks for reminding me that there's music beyond the mainstream. Guess I've gotten old and lazy. Remembering the old days when FM was underground, and Led Zeppelin was young and fresh. Before that part of rock got popular.



[Edited on 9-3-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

I definately agree with you on the fact that the music has become increasingly cheap. we are infact spoon fed a sort of controled medium. The Bealtes were the closest thing to a social revolution we have seen yet. The government cant have these Artists persuading its subjects to think for themselves. the world is propoganda warfare and the government wont have anyone braking up thier monopoly

Wumpscut is crazy, got a few of their songs.


I have to say my 3 of favorite groups are Tool, The Toadies (split up) and Nine Inch Nails...


I also enjoy some Aphex Twin.

I don't see how people can watch MTV or listen to Clear Channel Radio stations... They cram #ty songs down your throat, yet won't play little known artist that #ing kick ass.


I just can't stand no more Linkin Park, or any bands like them omfg. So Emo it hurts. And no way in hell you can pay me to listen to Limp Bizkit.

Yep I really think that music is really on its way down.
I am finding myself turning back to years ago to find music to listen too,I have always been a FLEETWOOD MAC fan since the release of their Tango in the night album when I was like 6yrs it was the first CD I bought,why I dont know but thats just me.

Also the likes of Bruce Hornesby The Valley Road,Mandolin Rain,etc.
Those sort of songs just have something something more than what the music has today.
I do listen to a few various artists now but very rarely have the urge to go out and buy their album,sure there are songs out there that are catchy and listenable too but IMO the leaque is different.

Yes I guess I am showing my age....but hey...

Really don't like most of the popular music around here. Most of the stuff I listen to is Project Pitchfork, VNV Nation, Wumpscut, Front Line Assembly, and lot of others. You never hear anything like that around here and whenever I try and get friends and stuff to listen to it they think it's all weird and stuff.

I'm really into metal and classical music. Metal (not hair metal) was great in the 80s, and it's still great today if you know where to look. Underground Metal bands are the best because they do everything for the fans and for their own expression, not gain. The only problem with metal today is that Metallica has gone downhill since their crappy St. Anger album. Classical music will always remain true, because lot's of money can't be made off of it, so people do it because they love it. Rap and Pop has to be the worst type of music because they're both superficial, musically and lyrically. Some of my favorite bands are 80s metallica, children of bodom, cannibal corpse, prong, slayer, led zeppelin, and deep purple.

Metallica sold their souls to the machine, period. They turned on their fans, on music lovers everywhere. Their bottom line was well-insured. In fact, they could have inaugerated a new era in musical history. Instead, they turned on us and shoved music sharing underground.

DE