Easter and its Pagan roots

reply to post by AshleyD


The references I have found as regard Krishna agree with what I have said.

So the cross was emphasized later, by Paul? As far as I understand it, this is period when Christianity started to move toward becoming the vast organization that it is now. 'Political' decisions such as the incorporation of other religious symbols might well have been taken. Mithras was the religion of soldiers (i.e. not rich folk). It would make sense to ease their conversion to Christianity by incorporating Mithras' main symbol.

Regarding symbolism and Christianity and other religions, Christianity is built on the religions that came before it. Christianity, like culture and language, is not an island that appeared out of nowhere. Not only did it draw its traditions and symbolism from what came before, it uses a common symbolic structure common to humanity. Just like we generally all have ten fingers and toes, so our Gods suffer for us.

I think the difference in our perspective is that you are dogmatically Christian. You see it as the one true faith and transmission of the word of God. To connect Christianity to other religions for you is to somehow weaken its unique position of rightness. Correct me if I wrong about your purely Christian perspective.

I do not feel the same way. I believe all true religions come from an experience of God interpreted in a way particular to each culture. There is only one God, but many ways to try to describe it.



[edit on 17-3-2008 by rizla]

Originally posted by rizla
The references I have found as regard Krishna agree with what I have said.

The thing is, look at these sources under very close scrutiny. Yes, I could probably cite 50 websites and published books that say Krishna was crucified, born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, etc. The thing is, it's all regurgitated misinformation. Typically the source is Graves, Massey, and Murdoch. All long since debunked.

They never quote the Hindu texts. But if you do (with the link I sent you before where I quoted the Hindu texts on pretty much everything in order to debunk it), they're just not there. This is why the Christ Myth Hypothesis is such a sham. It is downright lying. And trust me, I am always more than willing to give people the benefit of a doubt concerning making a mistake but this is so outlandish that the only thing to label those who do this is calling them liars.

Not sure if you have seen this thread yet but I mentioned this on it too. See: The Jesus Delete.

reply to post by AshleyD


Not to mention, it seems that no one that likes to pervert Christianity with paganism can ever look at anything with a level, sensibility. Has anyone EVER considered the fact that all these pagan god worship myths were probably fomented by pagans who WISHED they had a god to worship as eternally peaceful and loving as God/Jesus? And did anyone ever consider to think that perhaps the pagans stole the idea from the prophecies of Christ foretold in the OT? It would be easy for anyone (pagan) to take an OT prophecy of Jesus' death and resurrection and turn it into a myth of their own. It's just like any story that can be told over and over again until it turns into something completely different than how it began. And wouldn't they (the pagans of the day) have thought how wonderful it was for them that they were the ones to produce the god of all gods?

Pagans of old always found something to worship - idols, mystified gods, heroes, heroins. But none of those stories prospered and lasted into the future like the Christ story. So go ahead and think what you want to - but all these pagan stories you mention have all been proven false (as provided by all the evidence AshleyD has already put forward) and will continue to be proven false until the bitter end.

And beyond all that, Christians don't care what the pagans did and believed. That is not the foundation or basis of anything we believe, so why should we? Why would you who try to debunk Christianity by comparing it to paganism care what we believe anyway? You have your own system of belief and no one is asking you to change it.

Questions to Christians continue to get turned around into "preaching by the Christians". Why are all you so interested in these threads? You just keep coming back. I'm just wondering, because I sure do see a lot of the same ones coming back again and again for more. Are you seeking and just not finding?

Why did the Easter Bunny hide the eggs?












So the farmer wouldn't find out he was boinking the chicken.

Originally posted by Hendu
Why did the Easter Bunny hide the eg












So the farmer wouldn't find out he was boinking the chicken.

A little levity never hurts anyone.

Nice to see some these days.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
Not to mention, it seems that no one that likes to pervert Christianity with paganism can ever look at anything with a level, sensibility. Has anyone EVER considered the fact that all these pagan god worship myths were probably fomented by pagans who WISHED they had a god to worship as eternally peaceful and loving as God/Jesus?

As I intimated above, it's very hard to reason with this kind of attitude. Nothing is an island. Christianity is not an island. It is based on previous religions and borrows from them and develops them.

reply to post by AshleyD


Again, maybe. Like I said, I doubt Christ is directly related to Krishna. The two cultures are too distant. If there is a connection with the tree symbolism, it is due to the common symbolic language of humanity. How common is the tree and resurrection motif? That is a more meaningful question.

Now Mithras is different case. The two faiths are closely entwined.

Constantine popularized Christianity throughout the roman empire; without him, Christianity in the west might not exist at all. And he was a worshiper of the Mithraic Sol Invictus. One could say that he converted to christianity, but that is too simplistic. He combined the two faiths.

But at the end of the day it is pointless to argue that Christianity does not borrow from previous religions and is based consciously or unconsciously on them. To do otherwise smacks of religious elitism and fanaticism. I hope that is not the case with you. There are a depressing number of poorly informed zealots on these boards.


[edit on 18-3-2008 by rizla]

Originally posted by marg6043
Well theologians seems to completely ignore the fact that ancient civilizations history also had created their own messiahs before the Christ of Christianity.

But because he was the one that made it to the bible as the Chosen Israeli one he got the jack pot.

to be recognized through eternity.

He's not the only one! Cyrus was also referred to as "God's annointed" by the Hebrews (Book of Isiah I think). Not bad for a Persian king on the up who didn't even worhip the Hebrews' God!

The whole Mitra - Mithra - Jesus thing gets complicated, especially when the common view of Mithraism comes from the interpretation of it that was practiced by the Roman Army. One school of thought suggests that many of the similarities, in rituals, etc. that Christianity has were incorporated from Mithraism into it by Constantine in order to keep the army sweet when he made Christianity the state religion.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by DenyAllKnowledge]

reply to post by DenyAllKnowledge


Yes you are right in human history the believes in the Divine has always been part of any rituals since ancient times, for any of this groups to want a messiah or Saviour in their time of need was no uncommon either.

For historians that have researched into the many ancient civilizations it seem that incarnated gods has been born and walked the earth many times, even before the Christ, and after it was stolen manipulated and re shaped from the Israelis wanted messiah.

Making more as a fact that Jesus was a figure made by human religious mentality.

In my personal opinion the Jesus may have been many in its time that were incrdible human beings, and as human as all the humanity that has walked the earth since the beginning of life.

The list of Messiahs, Saviours and sons of god according to history or tradition, have been descended from haven, taken place in among men (because it has been always a male figure) and provided incontestable evidence of a divine origin, also they have performed miracles, incredible works, all this Saviours has been before the Christ.

But as usual if is no in the bible we most erase history and tag all this a myth but no the Christ because he was real after all the bible tells you so.

BTW nobody is staining the bible with paganism the bible itself if full of stolen stories of pagan roots.






[edit on 18-3-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


conspiracy wise:since G-D owns everything including the atoms and molecules that They sustain in the physical shape and the ability to think rationally that is us------why would They need to steal any literature from anyone that They created---to put it in Their book?

G-D speaking to moses on mt. sinai telling him what to say to the sons of israel (exodus 19:5)now then,if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples,for all the earth is Mine--- and again -----the G-D Being dealing with job tells him;who has given to Me that I should repay him?whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine. job 41:11

other Messiah's besides G-D in the flesh?all the kings of judah were anointed with oil----that doesn't make them Messiahs

in the end time and the day of the Lord ,G-D calls russia (the medes) and its allies His sanctified ones, that will be used to destroy babylon.isaiah 13:3/17------the germans on the western front in ww2 didn't think that the russians were messiah's when the tide of battle turned against them.

reply to post by yahn goodey


Yes but the many messiahs in history were not part of the Israeli God and for that reason didn't made it to the bible, as we all know that the OT is the religious and historical accounts mix with myth of the Israeli and their relationship with their God the God of Abraham.

While in the NT Jesus was the messiah that the new Christian faith stole from the Israelis and made their own.

So perhaps the bible follower will like to dismiss the historical accounts of other civilizations because they are not in the bible but you can never erase history no matter how much many has tried.

reply to post by AshleyD


quote "Concerning Odin. This one has always confused me the most because I can never get a straight answer out of anyone. Some claim the myths of Odin being placed on a tree for nine days didn't even surface until after 1,000 A.D. once Christianity started getting a strong foothold in Northern Europe."

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG... and I say it again.... WRONG

I am a Gythja of Asatru. Odin is my Patron God. *sigh* If you do not know something... do not comment on it. Please. If you want to know an answer, read the books concerning it. Let me make a few suggestions. The Poetic Edda. The Prose Edda. The Elder Edda. If you cannot make yourself read them.. do research on them. You will find out how old they are. And the thing is, they were written from poems and stories told by bards over time. Which means, just because the poems and stories were finally put to paper, that does not mean they did not exist before that.

Quite simply... you are look at a timeline from around 870 to 12th century. And is not even the earliest estimation. Either way... christianity was NOT in the Nordic regions in the 800's. The Nordic countries were not christianized till 1000AD. Sorry. YOUR theory is debunked. Odin and the World Tree was around a LONG LONG time before christianity ever made it's way to the nordic shores.

I suggest you read some more before trying to pass yourself off as all knowledgable.

VV

reply to post by ValhallasValkyrie


You are right the bible encompass the middle east and surrounding regions because that is the area were the Israelis roots were located and later the birth of christianity.

Many other ancient civilizations are forgotten because they are not to be found anywhere in the bible.

At one time when I was very young I was facinated by the norse mythology, I even gave my daughter a nordic name.

Yes now that I remember, ( I am getting forgetful) the Odin story comes to light.

In the Norse mytholoy Odin was hung or crucified on the Yggdrasil, He was even peirced in the side with a spear. Odin had long been the "God of the spear" and the "God of the Hanged.

Wilson's Almanac on gods and men with similarities to Jesus

www.wilsonsalmanac.com...

Some christians anyway. Ouch. where is that other nasty man Christianvoice? You two could have a baby together.

It seems that wherever you go on this site riz, all you do is attack Christians and their beliefs. Even on completely unrelated topics there you are despising Christians and attacking us. Well, we ain't going anywhere for a while so ya better get used to us.
Did someone hit you in the head with a Bible or did a minister rob you at gun point? I've read alot of your posts on different threads today and every one bar none you are hating on Christians. If you don't like us, then stay away from threads with religious themes.

I guess if one was not happy to believe in the religion of a Jewish christ, one could invent their own religion.
Once you had your religion all figured out and you pubished your bible, people would waste no time in taking it apart.
Someone would be able to dig up something, somewhere, they would able to hold up and say, "Ahah! This verse was obviously ripped off from this obscure ancient text from central India." or whatever.
Christianity does not even make sense, as far as being something neat to make up. But it does fulfill a certain yearning, inside the human heart, that nothing else satisfies.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

I posted this comment I made in another Easter thread in ATS so, I will post the same here. It deals with the scriptural notation of Easter, as found in Acts 12:4:

Yes, Easter by way of its origin is surely not in line with anything we find by way of truth in the scriptures. It had always seemed strange to me, of all the scriptures in the New Testament that make mention of the word Passover, the translators willingly, so it seemed, to leave Easter in Acts 12:4. You notice that I said, so it seems .

Take note of Acts 12:3, Herod commands the taking of Peter, after having killed James. When Herod takes Peter it clearly states: Then were the days of Unleavened Bread. Please keep this in mind and now read these two set of scriptures below:

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. (Leviticus 23:5-6)

And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. (Numbers 28:16-17)

Notice the order:

• 14th Day-First Month: PASSOVER
  
• 15th Day-First Month: UNLEAVENED BREAD
  

Please go back to Acts 12:4 and notice: Peter was taken during the Days of Unleavened Bread. Passover, which came on the 14th, had passed, and now Peter was being held until Easter had passed, not Passover. It had come and gone.

To say that the use of Easter in the KJV is a mistranslation, is incorrect. If we say Easter is actually Passover within Acts 12:4, then according to Numbers and Leviticus, the Jews are observing it backwards. First comes Passover then, Days of Unleavened Bread.

The translation of Easter is correct and is referring to the Roman Pagan holiday which was celebrated as a festival in the Spring, coinciding closely to Passover.

I had unsubscribed from this thread and didn't see Val's reply. Apparently Val was so excited about his super stellar [alleged] ownage and jumping to conclusions he felt the need to U2U me asking for a response. I'm typically nice but arrogance and rudeness is where I draw the line so here we go...

Originally posted by ValhallasValkyrie
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG... and I say it again.... WRONG

Lovely. So I basically admit I don't know (and you even help me confirm it is indeed unknown- more on this in a bit), am as honest as I can be instead of just making stuff up, and level with the person asking me questions only to see 'WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.' Nice. Thanks, Val.

I am a Gythja of Asatru. Odin is my Patron God. *sigh*

I'm having a trophy created for you as we speak.

If you do not know something... do not comment on it. Please.

All I basically told the guy was 'I don't know.' Have you ever tried to ignore a question around here? Trust me. The 'askee' won't let you forget the fact they asked. You either answer the question or say you don't know. I offered up both views on what I had researched but never even took a side. So, I said I don't know. Sorry you're tripping over it.

Which means, just because the poems and stories were finally put to paper, that does not mean they did not exist before that.

So they were passed on by oral tradition before being penned? That's cool.

Quite simply... you are look at a timeline from around 870 to 12th century. And is not even the earliest estimation. Either way... christianity was NOT in the Nordic regions in the 800's. The Nordic countries were not christianized till 1000AD.

Isn't that what I said when I said, "...after 1,000 A.D. once Christianity started getting a strong foothold in Northern Europe."

You're telling me to research but you can't even read a comment of mine you are arguing. It's pretty obvious I'm aware of when Christianity approximately started spreading to the Nordic countries. My confusion was when the 'World Tree' story concerning Odin was created. You yourself said it was passed on orally before being penned so that tells me my 'confusion' is founded as nobody really knows with absolute certainty.

Sorry. YOUR theory is debunked. Odin and the World Tree was around a LONG LONG time before christianity ever made it's way to the nordic shores.

This is hysterical to me and I think you already know why judging by the U2U I sent in reply to yours. You haven't 'debunked' my view because I had no view. I said I didn't know.

I suggest you read some more before trying to pass yourself off as all knowledgable.

I know about Krishna, Buddha, Mithras, Zoroaster, Horus, Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, Quetzalcoatl, etc., and admit to not knowing much about one figure, Odin. Sorry to have offended Odin by not researching him. But what do I think about all of this? Read my next comment. If anything, it was just a coincidence and no one borrowed from anyone.

You're super duper, Val.

[edit on 3/24/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by marg6043
Wilson's Almanac on gods and men with similarities to Jesus

www.wilsonsalmanac.com...

Absolutely downright false. See: HERE. They even mention the little 'Crucified Dionysus' amulet. Just trying to help you out before Val comes in and starts telling you to do your research.

____________________________________________________________________________

So why am I not worried about the Odin 'world tree' myth? Several reasons.:

1) The Messianic prophecies preceding Christ foretell a crucifixion. This prophecy was written about 700 centuries before the life of Jesus and was not 'invented' in the minds of first century Christians.

2) The historical references and documentation from secular and pagan authors testify to the fact Jesus had been crucified under Rome in the first century.

3) The fact Christians probably had no idea what the myths of Odin entailed in order for any borrowing to have even taken place.

4) Judging by the innumerable amount of lies that are floating around in Christ Myth circles, the burden of proof is now on the one making the claims. They lost all shred of reliability by being proven false on literally hundreds of accounts so I have a hard time taking anything they put forth now. They need to undo the past damage and back up their claims with actual references dealing with the pagan figures in question.

Originally posted by Hendu
Why did the Easter Bunny hide the eggs?

So the farmer wouldn't find out he was boinking the chicken.

Question... What's a Hendu?

It lays eggs!

OMG! Have you been boinking (Not to sure what that is) the Easter Bunny too!

Everyone else - please continue your eternal religious mud slinging.

Monkey

I told Val I would make a public apology here so here it goes. My apologies to Val for coming off as a bad ass with an attitude. We clashed, she apologized in U2U, but after seeing her comment here my ego got in the way so I acted like a jerk in turn even though she had already apologized to me in private.

Hopefully this ego of mine will calm down eventually. Many apologies to Val. I'm a cocky prick and need to work on my humility. She admitted she misunderstood my earlier reply after making her comment. No harm, no foul. I acted like an egotistical prick in return even after her apology and want to take the time to apologize now in public.

Forgive me, Val?