Proof? Who cares right?

Does proof matter as much as you think or do you just want to gain from what follows?

Many argue and even obsessed over proof and belief in aliens but I bet that’s not what almost everyone is after...

Example, lets say one day there was irrefutable proof of alien visitation in the news around the world and governments admitted they knew for a long time but never actually met with them or gained anything, the aliens then decided that as the whole planet knew it was time to move on and stop their observation or whatever they were up to, but for the sake of argument here let's just say they were like our scientists and were carrying out non intrusive research all these years, so they felt it was best to leave us in peace and that was that, we now all have proof but they're gone and had no real contact with us, that's great right we now have proof in this scenario?

Now I bet your all left with questions and wanting more right? Yeah you want to gain stuff from them, be it knowledge or technology you name it, perhaps its just human nature but I can bet proof doesn't matter to most as much as they think, its really what can be gained from them and that’s probably why if they do exist and apart from other obvious reasons like a kind of prime directive etc is the reason why they wouldn't have a meaningful contact at our earthbound level, still for those who genuinely are only interested in proof of life in the universe, scientifically and statistically speaking you can safely say it exists out there but the proof of visitation isn't strong enough yet and even so it doesn't matter either way right if you never gain anything from it?

reply to post by just theory


It does matter, even if we didn't gain anything from it (which I don't believe is the case anyway).

But I guess it all comes down to this: some look at the ET subject from a personal/spiritual even religious point of view. I, and the majority of people (I hope), look at the subject from a scientific and knowledge point of view.

What do we 'gain' from knowing how supernovas are formed? Knowledge, a better understanding of our Universe that will eventually lead us to understand more and other things.

From that perspective, isn't the ET question worth discovering simply from the perspective of knowledge and understanding the Universe and our surroundings? For me, that's an unequivocal Yes.

your logic seems to be going around in circles I couldn't understand the point your trying to make. In todays world proof is everything, they dont want to believe eye witness's so hard evidence is what we need. Sorry it just is.

Im basically saying proof alone is not enough at the end of the day, it would be great for a few weeks and maybe months but then people will want more as they always do, i mean scientifically and statistically you can safely accept life does exist elsewhere in the universe and a fair bit will be advanced so when people get all argumentative over the subject of proof it wouldn't be enough even if they are whizzing around the earth, what it comes down to is what people can gain, whether it be knowledge as you say or technology or anything else its all about gains and that is what it really comes down to which most wouldn't like to admit!

Im not saying wanting gains over just the proof is a bad thing im just wondering what everyone's thoughts on it are, is proof alone all that matters or is this what it all really comes down to? perhaps im just seeing things in a materialistic way and presuming others do as well?

Yes, proof is important.

Without proof we cannot expect others to understand or even acknowledge our beliefs.

Originally posted by just theory
Im basically saying proof alone is not enough at the end of the day, it would be great for a few weeks and maybe months but then people will want more as they always do, i mean scientifically and statistically you can safely accept life does exist elsewhere in the universe and a fair bit will be advanced so when people get all argumentative over the subject of proof it wouldn't be enough even if they are whizzing around the earth, what it comes down to is what people can gain, whether it be knowledge as you say or technology or anything else its all about gains and that is what it really comes down to which most wouldn't like to admit!

Okay, I can see what you mean here, and though I don't entirely agree, you raise an interesting point. I'd be willing to concede that there are those among us who are seeking technology, etc. These are mostly Government types it seems, that are still living in a mindset where one country needs to be 'better' than all others...

That being said, I believe that true disclosure (or absolute proof, one way or the other) would in fact elliminate that mindset effectively.

Many here at ATS will recall Ronald Regan's speech to the United Nations, where he stated unequivocally that Earth may NEED an extraterrestrial threat (or presence, my words) in order to break out of the pattern of internal earth conflict we've been engaged in for thousands of years.

Additionally, I would venture to say that once something is 'proven', there tends to be a paradigm shift in the entire field of research. For example, all of us here at ATS would stop debating 'if' they exist and move on to other questions like 'how did they get here, since they obviously did'.

Another example is the Manhattan Project undertaken by America during World War 2. Once the technology of the Atom (and Hydrogen) Bombs was established, other countries used that 'proof of concept' to develop such technologies on their own. This process is still underway, and by not 'giving' our technology away to countries like Iran and North Korea, there remains hope that by developing and studying the implications of such technologies on their own, these countries will also learn the responsibilities involved in the technologies usage. America itself is still advancing 'green' fuel systems, another example. We started with Coal, and based our entire fuel system on the technology. Now that we understand that there are better ways to solve our fuel problems, we are slowly but surely developing the technology to do so.

But my point here is that all we needed (or all anyone truly needs) is a 'proof of concept' in order to eliminate the established bias, and move forward with development.

In short, 'monkey see, monkey do', if we can establish that ET can cross light years, we should be able to free ourselves from the mindset that it is 'impossible' and continue on to develop such tech ourselves, learning the responsibility involved in using such tech along the way.

Good thread, it made me think!

-WFA

From what I can understand of your post, you're trying to say that proof is always going to be limited, so why not just settle for less proof from the get-go. Is that right? Lower our expectations, like on a dating website?

I think you're confusing disclosure with proof. Disclosure is one of those phantoms people will chase no matter what is presented. If interaction with aliens was announced, we'd still want more disclosure about what their "real" motives are, what kind of "secret" deals they have with the government, and so on. There would always be something we felt was hidden from us, regardless how much information was provided.

"Proof," verifiable, undeniable, proof, is good no matter how much we get. A little is good, because then we can start to figure out more questions. A lot is even better.

But when it comes to UFOs, we can't just give up and accept tiny bits of proof and extrapolate from that to accept something grander as a fact. At the moment, our level of proof is at a point where it's generally accepted that all kinds of people see weird stuff flying around. That's all.

We figure that a lot of the sightings are odd natural phenomena, hoaxes, misidentifications, or black project aircraft. Other than that, we don't have a clue. Could be Vulcans. Could be TimeCops. Could be tulpas. Could be something else.

We have proof with Blue Book that at one time the government was interested in them. And because tracking air traffic is the kind of stuff the government would probably still be interested in, we figure they still investigate, but on a more discreet level. Any good proof they've got aliens tucked away somewhere or have some secret deals going? Nope. Some suggestive inconclusive evidence, but no good proof.

Personally, I don't like to take a bunch of suggestive, circumstantial evidence and jump to a conclusion that might not be accurate. I'm in no hurry. I'd rather take what little proof we have, try to come up with some reasonable questions and hypotheses, and wait for more decent evidence to show up.

And hopefully before I die, there will be that Holy Grail show up that proves beyond a doubt that, "Yes, UFOs are ___________________!" Whatever it is. Then I can start to work on the other questions.



[edit on 14-3-2008 by Nohup]

What if we find out there are no aliens and never were? All this alien stuff was a cover up to hide our top secret projects and everything was built by the human mind and ingenuity.

Now to find out that life does exist else where would be a big deal and give the world hope. To know we're not alone would be good enough for me. I know other people would want more, but earth is my home and I would want to die here not out there.

VERY well said Nohup.

I think we were arriving at a similar conclusion from separate viewpoints.
I love it when that happens.

-WFA

i just responded to a thread similar to this. but i like this one a lot too.

keeping your mind on the prize is very hard to do. how do you decide which is more important.. some days i think proof is needed first and foremost.. then on other days i feel myself lower my "i need proof defenses" and i use another very important part to the scientific equation which is my IMAGINATION.

imagination has always been and always will be a catalist for future development in our culture. im not talking about sci fi imagination, i have cable tv for that.. im talking about something along the lines of what happens when i mix these to molecular compounds together, hmmm what would happen if i heated it to this temp.. thats my point.

so i feel like the proof is not necessary for weather or not they exist or not. not to mention the fact that they most likely are here at our place called earth.

i will need proof when people start talking about how advanced the tech is that they have.. i want to see something help me walk through walls or complete surgical procedures all on its own..that type of thing needs proof.

it seems completely normal to think that we have life in our deepest waters on our lands, and even in our skies.. and yes even the sky has a sky (universe) and i think there is life abundant there as well.

travel high enough and youll encounter the sky of another planet, travel further and you will encounter land life and further to see life in the deepths of the water resources..

there is an A to our B. there is an opposite mirror reflecting our current location.

Originally posted by LordThumbs
imagination has always been and always will be a catalist for future development in our culture. im not talking about sci fi imagination, i have cable tv for that.. im talking about something along the lines of what happens when i mix these to molecular compounds together, hmmm what would happen if i heated it to this temp.. thats my point.

Very well thought out post LordThumbs!

Regarding the section I quoted above, I would fully agree that Imagination is key in the development of new technologies. I would further submit that 'happenstance' has also been key to the development of many technologies popular today. It happens quite often in fact, that an 'accident' in the lab will translate into new tech.

On a note of friendly disagreement though, I'd have to argue that Sci-Fi Imagination is also key to tech development. I often wonder, without the original Star Trek communication devices, would we have Cell Phones today?

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


Ah interesting points there and from others too, i was hoping to expand my view, i had forgot quite a bit of the world changing aspects that proof alone would provide, which some could be good gains for civilization, i would imagine we might try to better ourselves if we knew we were being watched!

reply to post by just theory


You are mistaken. What you are discribing is a sub process of the real issue.

The "proof" is there for anyone who really wants to "know". Disclosure has already happened. All you need do is check out disclosure project.

Let us now take the disclosure project. They are legit, and they have well intending idealisims of their orginzation. Yet they also miss the core issue as to why we can't "move on".

The "aliens" will not be abonding us.

The issue of "proof" isn't what groups can "get". It's about control.

The MAJORITY of people who search for the "hard proof" are not conserned for what aliens might mean to then, nor what they might get from the aliens. It's all about them being able to call the governmental powers "liars" and therefore thinking they can be taken out of "control".

The issue is CONTROL.

In the truly GOOD alien population there is no struggle for control. All the happy little aliens are one "people". Unlike this mucked up world where everyone wishes to be top dog, and they all try mounting eachother, for position on the pile. It's a large king of the hill.

The only reason anyone wishes to gain anything from the aliens is for CONTROL and "Power" be it through finical gain or idolization of charactor.

This is the reason aliens can help us at this time.

reply to post by Incarnated


Disclosure project is crap and Greer is a charlatan. Try again.


Oh, and proof is CRITICALLY important.

Originally posted by chromatico
reply to post by Incarnated

 

Disclosure project is crap and Greer is a charlatan. Try again.


Oh, and proof is CRITICALLY important.

Oh well if a little "no one" on the internet says Disclosure Project is crap, then it MUST be true.

The Disclosure Project has over 400 witnesses that are profestionals in files such as (blah blah blah). So I have no idea of why you'd think that is crap. If you've ever trusted a person well enough to take a ride in a plane, it is not crap. If you've ever trusted your government or law enforcement with your safty then it isn't crap.

Oh please!!!

reply to post by chromatico



How is your post adding to the thread. Yes, Greer is untrustworthy and TDP is stagnant, but, forward the thread. Add to it. Your post is pretty much equal to a one-liner in substance. Post to advance the thread, not just to hear yourself speak.

Thank you.

Cuhail

reply to post by Cuhail


"Trustworthy" what's that? Who if anyone of us that got close to a source wouldn't try being burnt by the powers that don't want you to know.

Is he untrustworthy? And by who's accounts and why? What is the truth behind his charactor discriminitation and what "spin" was put onto it.

WHO IS TRUSTWORTHY among all the humans of the world?

That's a red herroning. Are the 400+ witnesses of the disclosure project also "untrustworthy"?

It's often said for there to be light there must be dark.

Well for someone to be untrustworthy there must be someone trustworthy. Who might this be then? YOU?

Hi there Incarnated.

First and foremost, let me state that I enjoy reading your posts.
Unfortunately I must disagree with you on this issue.
The Disclosure Project, while in my view a landmark in UFO research, still does not constitute proof.

Unfortunately, eyewitness testimony is not regarded as valid in this field.
That fact frankly 'sucks', as I am a personal eye witness to what I believe are EBE Craft, and MY testimony unfortunately amounts to nothing.

Even if I should disclose my personal history, as those 400+ witnesses have done, it doesn't 'prove' my theory, it only adds credence for those who choose to 'believe' me.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm 100% on the side of the witnesses brought forth through the Disclosure Project, regardless of my personal views regarding Greer.

However, all that being said, what is required in order to get beyond the worldwide question of 'do they exist' is actual evidence, or proof. It's the only way to convince everyone beyond doubt, at least it seems that way when examining mainstream views on this topic.

You raise some great points though, and I agree with your views on a personal level. I just don't think that what's out there is going to be enough to 'settle the issue' at this point. This is one reason I'm so gung-ho about the Battle of Los Angeles.

Nice to finally speak with you directly after reading many of your posts!

-WFA

reply to post by Incarnated



Well, trust is a funny thing, Mikey. Trust, to me has to be earned with actions and deeds. Greer and the Disclosure Project have not earned MY trust. Nor, my admiration. We haven't received anything close to real, solid disclosure from anyone dispite Greer and Co. So why even refer to The Disclosure Project. It's also not what the OP asked.
Proof, as the OP infers, isn't the end of it. We, as mortal humans, are an inquisitive being. Proof in one area will only lead to looking for truth and proof in another area or deeper in the same. There is no satisfaction where our curiosity is involved, we'll just want more.

And yes, I'm trustworthy. My actions are my worth. I have personal honor. I learned long ago that lying takes to much energy compared to the truth.
Are you trustworthy, oh, great Michael?

Cuhail