Lucifer Always allowed back into Heaven?

Okay, I’m not particularly well versed in the ‘Bible’ but I’d like to add my insight here, if I may, please. Say you’re ‘God’, a good parent who has lots of kids, ‘angels’. Of course there would be some ‘black sheep’ or rotten eggs in the bunch. So hypothetically, no matter how ‘naughty’ one of the eggs has become there is always an open door policy, yes, for those who have been kicked out for not following the ‘rules of the house’ while living under the same roof of the parental unit(s). I am a firm believer in second chances, by the way.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Eek! No! :p See: HERE.

EEK! NO! ♥

See here:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:12

‘Lucifer’ in Hebrew is Heylel:

H1966:
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star.

It is merely a proper name arising from the following verb:

H1984
hâlal
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

And, upon further research concerning every instance of that verb in the Old Testament, it has a VERY WIDE variety of meanings - both 'good' and 'bad.'

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, by Hebrews! Forget the Latin altogether. As well as Jerome.

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The 'morning star' is mentioned ONLY three times in the bible. Two times we know it is in reference to Jesus. So why not the third?


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In reference to your link:

In 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul uses this word:

G3345
metaschēmatizō
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976;
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).

It is also used here:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1 Corinthians 4:6

And here:

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Philippians 3:21

What that word simply means is to transform the outer image of - to change form.

If you think about that, what's wrong with that? Maybe GOD DOES intend on changing us ALL. I believe that is true simply because that is what GOD said.

We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.

Originally posted by pikypiky
Okay, I’m not particularly well versed in the ‘Bible’ but I’d like to add my insight here, if I may, please. Say you’re ‘God’, a good parent who has lots of kids, ‘angels’. Of course there would be some ‘black sheep’ or rotten eggs in the bunch. So hypothetically, no matter how ‘naughty’ one of the eggs has become there is always an open door policy, yes, for those who have been kicked out for not following the ‘rules of the house’ while living under the same roof of the parental unit(s). I am a firm believer in second chances, by the way.

Cool. Beautiful. I like your attitude. ♥

Here is another possibility:
GOD also requires one of those angels to be the 'heavy' assigned to keep the rest in line. Or perhaps to keep man in line.

As an instrument of discipline.

All good parents use discipline wisely for the benefit of their children. The children don't like it and don't appreciate it until they are grown but nevertheless it is LOVE and is necessary.

Huh?

Lets remember which century we are in here guys - it's the twenty first, not the fifteenth.

reply to post by queenannie38


Venus. That was the Hebrew word for Venus (the morning star / light bearer). I believe Venus and Jupiter or Saturn (I forget which one out of the two) are the only two planets mentioned specifically in the Bible. Latin came in and defined it as Lucifer (light bearer / morning star) in the literal Babylon interpretation and the metaphorical Satan/Lucifer interpretation. Then it stuck with the references to 'Lucifer' being represented as an angel of light / light bearer / Venus / son of the dawn / morning star in confused Latin and English translations.

[edit on 2/12/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Venus. That was the Hebrew word for Venus (the morning star / light bearer).

No. Heylel is NOT the name for the planet Venus in Hebrew.

It is a proper name of a person. Isaiah was specifically referring to Nebuchadnezzar when he wrote that.

The Hebrew word for the planet Venus is transliterated something like: nogah. Which, I think, must probably spelled as nun-gimel-he in Hebrew. Although I can't say for sure since it is NOT mentioned in the Old Testament anywhere as the name for a planet. It IS found in 1 Chronicles 3:7, in the lineage of King David through Absalom; but it is a name defined as 'brightness; clearness.'

Probably that is why Venus is called that, in Hebrew - because it is a descriptive term rather than a word confined to name one thing or one person. You'd have to understand the Hebrew language somewhat to know what I mean - all nouns come from verbs and names often come from the nouns which are descriptive of an action and are meaningful in respect to every person and their individuality soul's identity as known by GOD.

It is DEFINITELY NOT in the bible as the name for the planet Venus. The Kabbalah uses it as Venus but the Kabbalah is NOT the Torah!

I believe Venus and Jupiter or Saturn (I forget which one out of the two) are the only two planets mentioned specifically in the Bible.

I don't know of ANY mention of any of those planets, as planets, in the Hebrew Old Testament. That was a big NO-NO, you know. Remember Molech? BIG no-no!

According to the bible, Christ was always with the father, until he arrived the first time in Bethlehem.

There is no mention of Christ going back and forth to heaven from earth. (As far as I am aware)

~Ducky~

[edit on 12-2-2008 by TheDuckster]

reply to post by queenannie38



Satan = Saturn

Lucifer= Torchbearer, Venus, FEMALE




[edit on 12-2-2008 by interestedalways]

Originally posted by queenannie38
No. Heylel is NOT the name for the planet Venus in Hebrew.

It is a proper name of a person. Isaiah was specifically referring to Nebuchadnezzar when he wrote that.

You're right. I think I'm losing my mind! This was even what my very first debate was about right after joining ATS where I corrected someone for their "Venus interpretation" and told them the same things you are telling me now. See: HERE, HERE, HERE, and my subsequent replies. Am I going insane or is the lack of sleep finally catching up with me?

[edit on 2/12/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by TheDuckster
What puzzles me is the Book of Job.

Ducky, have you ever read through the entire book of Job? I'm not asking to be snipey - it is a VERY long book and hard to read. Kind of like the biblical equivalent of reading Dostoevsky. Although it has a lot of value when seeking out the deeper mysticism of the the soul's conversion....that's not useful for everyone and it doesn't really have to do with the more simple message given in that book.

If we read just the first and last chapters of Job, it pretty much makes the whole affair more apparent as far as purpose and effect.

After all the trials and tribulations to which satan was allowed to subject Job...and the conversations and debates with his three friends, his wife, and with GOD...this is what Job said:

I see that you are able to do every thing, and to give effect to all your designs.
Who is this who makes dark the purpose of God by words without knowledge?
For I have been talking without knowledge about wonders not to be searched out.
Give ear to me, and I will say what is in my mind; I will put questions to you, and you will give me the answers.
Word of you had come to my ears, but now my eye has seen you.
For this cause I give witness that what I said is false, and in sorrow I take my seat in the dust.

THEN GOD says to Eliphaz the Temanite:

I am very angry with you and your two friends, because you have not said what is right about me, as my servant Job has.

Similar admonishments were made to the other two friends, as well. Then it says:

And the Lord made up to Job for all his losses, after he had made prayer for his friends: and all Job had before was increased by the Lord twice as much.

The bottom line is in verse 12:

And the Lord's blessing was greater on the end of Job's life than on its start:

So...it is undeniable that no matter what MAY have been the motivation of satan, on the deepest level (whether the testing was provoked by jealousy or just plain orneriness or even possibly LOVE and/or service)...the consequences of satan's actions toward Job were:

• Job ended up both wiser about himself as well as GOD
  
• Job proved his loyalty to GOD was more important than his own desires/comforts
  
• Job was wealthier in material things at the END than he had started out - all that he had lost was not only replaced but made better and there was more of it

The moral of the story might be considered to be this:

GOD is the source of both 'good' and 'evil.'
But even GOD's evil is potential blessing for man; and the agent GOD uses for this purpose is called 'satan.'
But the best of man's 'good' is, at best, still just selfish desires which can only end up doing more harm than good.

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This is my personal understanding/opinion:

It is better to bear it in the certainty that GOD is doing what is best for us out of love...not to question or rail against his methods...to take the chastisement that is the means for our becoming true sons.

We are not to judge GOD's servants - whether of the light or the darkness!
We can certainly ask all the questions we want and try to come to greater understanding. But I guarantee that if Michael did not condemn or scorn ha'satan then that means we have no legitimate right to do such a thing ourselves; especially when we do not yet even understand the nature of the angels and the workings of GOD's army!

If ha'satan is obeying GOD then who are we to say we are more favored when we won't obey GOD simply by trusting his ways and means?

I'm not saying that to you...just in general. So many say they follow Jesus yet they do NOT do the short-form law which is the two greatest commandments...especially the LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF part...and yet they feel justified in saying GOD will condemn one of his workers forever while expecting to not be held accountable for the one simple commandment given to us which is LOVE.

Perhaps it takes far greater love from ha'satan to serve man for man's good, knowing that he will forever be hated and feared by man, than it does to love Jesus for loving us.

-----------------

Now for a pop-quiz:
Surprise!

JESUS said LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that we could positively say that there is a 'devil' and the 'devil' is the intentional and malignant worst enemy of Jesus...still would not Jesus do as he commanded us to do...and love his worst enemy?

YES
or
NO

Originally posted by interestedalways
Satan = Saturn

Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.
Matthew 9:38

The reapers!

Lucifer= Torchbearer, Venus, FEMALE

reply to post by TheDuckster


When Job was written, there was no theological division between heaven and hell. Hell was in fact the second "layer" of heaven. Satan (Samael, to be accurate to th naming conventions I'm drawing this from) was not cast from heaven, but simply cast from God's good graces to rule over a dark, desolate corner of Heaven. According to the lore here, Samael only Believes himself to be cast-out, while God still regards him as a loved child - just one who's made poor decisions.

You can't really look at the Old Testament books through a New Testament lens. THese books are full of Jewish myth and mysticism that simply does not convert (pardon the pun) well to Christian interpretations.

Yes originally Lucifer and Satan are completely different entities. But even in the bible there is hope for Lucifer, the rebellious angel only has to proclaim that Jesus is lord and he can be forgiven.

But it's foretold that he won't do this, having his pride in the way and would rather be tossed into the lake of fire and destroyed other than submit to Jesus.

I believe that this was the original reason for the first war in heaven. We are talking trinities here. 1/3 of angels rebelled. The holy trinity of the father the son and the holy spirit. Lucifer was angry at god for the appointment of Jesus to his right hand, the position that Lucifer once had and so he rebelled.

Satan is a tempter a deceiver and yes the prosecuting attorney for heaven. It is a neutral entity created not to serve god necessarily but to test mankind.

Let me just say this real quick.

Lucifer was first mentioned in the King James bible. It is a bad translation from the greek. Like you have said, it means "morning star". Lucifer, morning star, is a reference to the planet venus, which is the most bright "star" in the morning.

In the text jesiah 14:12 where lucifer is mentioned they are acctually singing a song about a king of babylon who, while the jews were inprisoned there, gave them lots of hardship. And then later his tyrany "fell". And that is EXAKTLY what they are saying in jesiah 14:12... If I look at 14:3 I see as a "topic": Blasphemy for the king of babylon (Smädesång om kungen av Babylonien)

The "name" Lucifer is taken totally out of context.

This is what my online swedish bible tells me and also what my university professor in religioushistory tells me. Accutally, in my bible and every newer bible in sweden, since 1912, does not even mention lucifer in anyway, NEVER, BECAUSE IT A BAD TRANSLATION! I have no idea why that started doing the Lucifer = Satan thingy...

My english sucks, sorry.

God and the devil are best pals, it's just that God's the nerd and Satan's the emo. One is peaceful, the other is always onto something.

reply to post by TheDuckster


I always thought Anne Rice had an interesting take on that in her book "Memnoch the Devil" which has a being that claims to be the devil.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
This has been plaguing me forever.

According to the Bible, there was a 'war in heaven', to which one of God's Angel - Michael, cast out Satan and 1/3 of the other rebellious angels.

What puzzles me is the Book of Job.

NIV Version

Job's First Test

6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the .....................................

I don't feel like finding the external quotes right now, but bare with me for a moment here..

The reason why he asked where he came from is because (if you read the the older gnostic scriptures) Satan was not created by GOD, he was created by GOD's counter-part.. she created him in ignorance and without The Prime Fathers (GOD) permission... and she was ashamed and cast him into .... okay dammit fine I'll get some external quotes..

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth.

and yet another quote to explain a bit of the TO and FRO..

And I said, "Lord, what does it mean that she moved to and fro?" But he smiled and said, "Do not think it is, as Moses said, 'above the waters.' No, but when she had seen the wickedness which had happened, and the theft which her son had committed, she repented. And she was overcome by forgetfulness in the darkness of ignorance and she began to be ashamed. And she did not dare to return, but she was moving about. And the moving is the going to and fro.

Now you have to keep in mind that the bible has been written by people who have been hiding certain truths for their own reasons of control etc.. and as many people notice in the bible GOD seems to have split personalities but that is because instead of being specific with names they just lumped different people into two categories, GOD/SATAN, ... and names have been changed etc.. only where it was 'necessary' to cut down on explaining a lot. Also try to keep in mind the hatred MEN have had for women, and how they've been portrayed in the past.

"And when the mother recognized that the garment of darkness was imperfect, then she knew that her consort had not agreed with her. She repented with much weeping. And the whole pleroma heard the prayer of her repentance, and they praised on her behalf the invisible, virginal Spirit. And he consented; and when the invisible Spirit had consented, the holy Spirit poured over her from their whole pleroma. For it was not her consort who came to her, but he came to her through the pleroma in order that he might correct her deficiency. And she was taken up not to her own aeon but above her son, that she might be in the ninth until she has corrected her deficiency.

Source:www.gnosis.org...

The dead sea scrolls and the gnostic scriptures are a very important part of the bible, that happen to now be a part of the bible.
But the bible happens to be a collaboration of most of these texts.

Queenannie38
Christ Jesus = Lucifer

I definitely do not agree with you.

This hopefully will clear a few things up: I have other sources, but you can dissect this one first.

www.chick.com...


Here is another piece of scripture that might warp you brain:

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Be careful here... 22:23 says that the LORD hath -put- a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets BUT 12:21 says "And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, -I- will persuade him. " God 'put' the evil spirit in the mouth of the prophets by giving -him- permission. (In essence, 'using' them) God does not do evil per say, but ALLOWS it in certain cicumstances. Until you really get the proper revelation on this it will never make sense to anyone how God is seperate from evil and Holy, just like the entire Bible says he is. God uses evil spirits like we use bad bacteria in our intestine. Once their task is done they DIE and are flushed down the toilet.. (Evil spirts go to the septic tank called hell) One of the ways God 'uses' evil is through delusion:

Isa 66:4 I also will CHOOSE their DELUSIONS, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.





God basically plays evil like the proverbial violin and in the end he is going to take his 'controlling' Holy hand of control away, and literally, all hell is going to break loose without restraint and all the ones (tares) are going to be left behind. All the GOOD bacteria in the intestine are going to be gone and the bad will take over and the whole thing will rot and go to hell in a hand basket. Trust me, you don't want to be the "bad bacteria" because you are just a deluded executioner of Gods wrath headed to hell after God is done using you for His purpose and God is by no means unholy for doing this because you were evil to begin with.

Hope this makes sense.

And PLEASE don't make the mistake of confusing Jesus with "lucifer". Definitely some similaraties when it comes to the word itself but NOT concerning the context of the Bible.



Don't forget:

2co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Satan wants to be God.. Well, I got some news for him....when his inteligencia and 'given' power is weighed in the balance along with delusion, it's a lost cause.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by ViewFromTheStars]

I'm a bit groggy right now, but I was compelled to read this thread and find it quite fascinating so I will try to throw my two cents in. I understand that we are all trying to fumble through the different translations and interpretations to get to the actual story/happenings concerning Lucifer as some might call him.... but being relatively well versed in theology I have to say that there is no way that there isn't some type of collaborative effort between Lucifer and God even after his supposed fall from grace. There are just too many hints in the bible that point to some type of agreement in some form or another.... in my mind it's kind of the whole good cop/bad cop scenario.

"I want to get you into heaven I do. I believe that you've been a good person, but my partner here isn't so sure."

At the risk of sounding cliche I think that to a certain extent Anne Rice hit the proverbial nail on the head in Memnoch the Devil. Using her knowledge of many Jewish/Christian texts as well as her own creativity she pieced together the story of the Devil that to me at least seems probable. For those of you who have not read the book, I will give a brief synopsis.

God never knew how he came into existence. He created the universe and the earth as a test, he wanted to see that if given the right conditions beings like himself would someday emerge. At first Memnoch, as he is known in the book was awestruck by the newly born universe, and more specifically, the Earth. He with the other angels would spend large lengths of time on the surface just taking in the beauty of it all. Then a curious thing happened... life began. Memnoch began to notice that all life that came into being eventually withered away or died. He was horrified by this. Why would God allow life to exist only to let it die, and fade from existence. He would often plead his case to God and would subsequently be wrapped in light, and feel at ease and go back to being a loyal servent who enjoyed watching the progression of the earth.

Then people evolved. Memnoch was again appalled. Here were creatures that looked like angels, but were allowed to perish without god giving an upward glance. He noticed that the people would have a spirit that continued on after death. Some were weak and would dissipate and disappear, some were angry and tried to cling to the mortal lives, others had been enlightened and were powerful, yet at peace. These spirits were often worshipped by their families in future generations... thus explaining the more local gods we have throughout history. For the umpteenth time, Memnoch pleads to god to not allow this to continue. Not only because people were allowed to exist only to die, but because God denied their spirits access into heaven. God finally had enough and cast Memnoch to earth where he took a wife, taught the people basic society, art, written language, etc. When he was allowed to return to heaven he again pleaded that God allow human spirits access to heaven. God gave him specific guidelines and if Memnoch could find at least 100 souls worthy of heaven he would allow them access. Memnoch returns with thousands. Heaven, which had been nothing but light and love became a beautiful landscape formed by the new citizens.

For Memnoch's disrespect however he was only allowed to appear to humans in what we would consider demonic form. His mission became to get as many people into heaven as possible, he turned Sheol, which was the realm where spirits dwelled into what we know of as hell. Enlightened spirits are allowed to ascend to heaven. Those who have not learned to forgive themselves for the wrongs they have committed in life, and have not learned to forgive others for what has happened to them are in self agony and cannot ascend. Memnoch forces them to relive these transgressions perpetually till they can see the error of their ways/learn to forgive themselves and ascend.

The temptation of Christ also happens to be mentioned among other things. While wandering the earth Memnoch came across Jesus, who he immediately realized was god in human form. He was alone, hungry, sun burnt, and suffering. He begged Christ to turn rocks and what not into food because he could not stand to see him in pain, yet he refused. At the same time Memnoch was angry because God had essentially grafted himself into a series of beliefs that the people had made up on there own.... the Jewish faith.

So there you have it.... kudos to anyone who actually bothers to read all of this. I am by no means saying this is exactly how it went down, but it is worth considering, it explains a lot, and does blend biblical facts, with implied circumstances throughout Judeo-Christian texts. Anyhow, I'll be watching the thread, thanks for starting some interesting conversation OP.

reply to post by TheDuckster


Sorry I missed your post, but Jesus' descent into Hell to release the Patriarchs and other biblical figures is found in the GOspel of Nicodemus. That one very nearly became biblical, and was so popular that to this day it remains a common extra-biblical oral tradition.

Edit: I got my apocryphia muxed

[edit on 12-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]