Lucifer Always allowed back into Heaven?

I want to bring everyone back to the original topic.

Lucifer ALWAYS allowed back into heaven?

~~Ducky~

one other thing to consider...history is always written by the winning side. So if God won the battle then his side of the story will be side that is told and spread.

reply to post by TheDuckster


Sorry if I strayed a bit too much. So in short the answer is yes, I believe that Lucifer can go to heaven as he sees fit.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
I want to bring everyone back to the original topic.

Lucifer ALWAYS allowed back into heaven?

~~Ducky~

Oh shoot yeh.. I forgot to address that...


Umm, The question itself is incorrect in my opinion and under my understanding of the scriptures presented to 'mankind'

the question should look like this...

Lucifer ALWAYS has BEEN ALLOWED INTO HEAVEN...

not BACK.. because he has never actually been there although he was 'created' there and cast away.

now the way it is worded is that SHE has to fix the problem .. not Yaltabaoth (satan/lucifer) ..
I've toyed with the idea that SHE could be the earth or mother nature, and she has to find a way of ... 'waking' us up .. or something to that effect.
Where GOD created nature/mother nature, and nature could have 'created' us by advancing our minds through hallucinogenic plants and animals, which created the foundations of language and our understanding of the patterns in nature to the current day.

It is a well known fact that hallucinogens cause some-what of a fog or forgetfulness and even though we forget/forgot a lot of it, it effected our subconscious if not developed it and thus our cave paintings and societies.

this effect could explain the 'great sleep/forgetfulness' that god put over man, and could explain the knowledge of good and evil, it was a certain tree, it was a certain species of plants that caused great changes in our understanding and development.,

just some toughts... But I think the trick is getting lucifer or satan to go to heaven...
it'd be pretty hard to get a kid who is playing with his toys to go to bed especially if he could control every aspect of his games.

[edit on 2/12/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

reply to post by PuRe EnErGy

not BACK.. because he has never actually been there although he was 'created' there and cast away.

This is a tiny bit contradictory.

He was in heaven, in the first place in order to be kicked out later.

~Ducky~

Originally posted by TheDuckster
reply to post by PuRe EnErGy

 

not BACK.. because he has never actually been there although he was 'created' there and cast away.

This is a tiny bit contradictory.

He was in heaven, in the first place in order to be kicked out later.

~Ducky~

Think of it this way.... the hospital you were born in ... did you get to use the facilities or eat any of the food there? .. get to explore at all?

well I guess what it boils down to is why say sorry for something when youre not? remember pride is a sin and Lucifer, like man is pride exemplified. God would know he didn't mean it anyway. Lucifer to me is like Mel Gibson at the end of Braveheart. call me evil or whatever but God is the one acting petty IMO and he is supposed to be all high and mighty

Originally posted by Totalstranger
well I guess what it boils down to is why say sorry for something when youre not? remember pride is a sin and Lucifer, like man is pride exemplified. God would know he didn't mean it anyway. Lucifer to me is like Mel Gibson at the end of Braveheart. call me evil or whatever but God is the one acting petty IMO and he is supposed to be all high and mighty

on the contrary I would think that GOD is merely being patient waiting until the little boy is done playing and finally wants to learn, grow up and join his older brother.

[edit on 2/12/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

Originally posted by AshleyD
You're right. I think I'm losing my mind!

No biggie! I lose my mind all the time...or maybe I should say 'misplace.'

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
I definitely do not agree with you.

That's fine with me!

This hopefully will clear a few things up: I have other sources, but you can dissect this one first.

I appreciate the offer and your time. But I think I will just stick to my preferred source, which is the Bible. If I go wrong...well at least it won't be because I followed the teachings of men rather than the WORD of GOD.

Here is another piece of scripture that might warp you brain:

Warp my brain?
It's gone way beyond that, my dear!

The majority of Revelation is about the future. The passages are symbolic representations of heavenly and earthly events. It's the climax of the second coming of Christ where the remaining seed is sealed. The kingdom of the heavens begins operation through the 20 and 4 elders. Satan is no longer allowed into heaven to torment God about human weakness.

At the start of the rebellion by Satan, God allowed many things to happen contrary to his will. If one angel can turn bad, how many more will follow? If two humans turn bad, how many will follow?

God allowed the angels to materialize and take human form. A few chose to live like humans, which was against his will. After the flood they could no longer materialize for self gratification. Their perception was darkened but they could travel back to heaven, but would they want to face the music? Satan wasn't scared to see God.

Some fallen angels are stronger than God's faithful angels. Daniel 10:13 says that the Prince (or angel) of Persia resisted Gabriel from seeking Daniel for comfort. It took the formost Prince (or angel) Michael to free Gabriel from the Persian angel.

Satan was said to be in control of the earthy kingdoms of the earth. Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus on that lofty mountain. The only kingdom that Satan did not own was Israel, then later only Judah. The prince in charge of that nation was Michael.

So in the future Satan and his demons will no longer be allowed back into heaven, even though they are in mental darkness.

I don’t know the difference between ‘Satan’ and ‘Lucifer’ or if they are the one and the same; nor do I care if these entities are described as neutral, enemies or servers of ‘God’. Furthermore, I do not know how ‘God’ could be ‘good’ and yet appear ‘evil’ to some or if ‘heaven’ is a place of happiness and joy and ‘hell’ is really a place of fire and brimstone.

To me ‘hell’ is a place outside the heart – full of jealousy, pride and self-centeredness that with the patience of ‘God’ could take eternity for anyone to overcome; while ‘heaven’ is where the heart is – full of love (worship or praise) that cannot be forced on anyone.

My current understanding is to love yourself first so that you may love your neighbors, most especially your worst enemies -- the least of your brothers and sisters, who may have fallen or yet to fall flat on their faces (all over again) as angels or humans.

For those who choose to learn the hard way, ‘God’ employs whatever methodology as an expression of Love by allowing a reasonable assurance that a ‘heavenly’ home is available at anytime even to the worst offenders of ‘God’s will.

This goes along the premise that ‘God’ is good ALL the time, no matter what form of communication has been passed on through the generations.

I hope this makes sense as my opinionated thoughts cannot be clearly expressed this morning since: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:13:51 PM.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
This has been plaguing me forever.

According to the Bible, there was a 'war in heaven', to which one of God's Angel - Michael, cast out Satan and 1/3 of the other rebellious angels.

What puzzles me is the Book of Job.

NIV Version

Job's First Test

6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan 7 also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

It is my understanding that Lucifer was (in the beginning) 'God's right hand man', so to speak, and was more than likely 'privy' to high councel.

When he was ousted from heaven, it appears as though he wasn't ousted for good - according to the biblical text provided above.

He shows up one day, along side other angels, to take counsel with God.

God doesn't kick him out again, but rather holds a meeting; including Satan - regarding decision making plans for God's servant Job.

What's going on here folks?

~Ducky~

Hi TheDuckster/

The Book of Job is about Faith in God and forgiveness of Jobs weakness falling into despair.
It is not about Satan and God.....But about, How Satan works, when man is in despair!
Satan is full of pride(this is how it all began) wants to make all people fall into pride and into his evil ways.

...... that suffering, whether severe or light, is not always a result of sin; it is a means by which God tries and promotes virtue (36:1-21),
and is thus a proof of God's love for his friends.
The sufferings of Job are also such a testing (36:16-21)..to which man is subject to today.

In Job's Suffering, the works of God are revealed.Job has not only grown stronger in his faith, but has gained greater faith in God/Quote///The three friends(Eliphaz, Baldad and Sophar) are commanded to obtain Job's intercession, otherwise they will be severely punished for their uncharitable complaints against the pious sufferer.
Yahweh forgives the three at the entreaty of Job, who is restored to double his former prosperity.''...///

Thus Job bore all the tests triumphantly, even those caused by his friends. No matter how terrible the persecutions of God might be, Job held fast to Him (6:8-10) and drew ever closer to Him (17:9).
In the midst of his sufferings he lauds God's power (26:5-14) and wisdom (28). Satan, who had boasted that he could lead Job into sin against God (1:11; 2:5), is discredited.
The epilogue testifies expressly to Job's faithfulness (42:7-9). After much discourse (3-22) Job finally succeeds in silencing the three friends, although he is not able to convince them of his innocence.
In a series of monologues (23-31), interrupted only by a short speech by Baldad (25), he once more renews his complaints (23-24), extols the greatness of God (26-28), and closes with a forcible appeal to the Almighty to, examine his case and to recognize his innocence (29-31).

Read more Book of Job~Suffering?

IX
helen

Hi The Duckster/

Your Original post reads ''Lucifer ALWAYS allowed back into Heaven?
Found an article that which may help you understand as to why Satan wont be going to Heaven out of his own free will....
On Angels.....

The angel's nature then is rational, and intelligent, and endowed with free-will, change, able in will, or fickle.
For all that is created is changeable, and only that which is un-created is unchangeable.
Also all that is rational is endowed with free-will.
As it is, then, rational and intelligent, it is endowed with free-will: and as it is created, it is changeable, having power either to abide or progress in goodness, or to turn towards evil.

It is not susceptible of repentance because it is incorporeal.
For it is owing to the weakness of his body that man comes to have repentance.

eighth century Teaching

IX
helen

reply to post by TheDuckster


Was Lucifer ever allowed back into Heaven?

Well probably not given that Lucifer is a Roman deity and Son of the Roman goddess Venus. He's probably welcome in Olympus.

What your really asking is if The Satan is allowed in Heaven. The Satan being the Chief Procurator figure from Job. I use the term Procurator instead of Prosecutor because it fits his job better. Procurators are powerul Prosecutor like figures in China, Vietnam, and were in the USSR.

To answer your question though, the answer is yes. Satan would not be barred from Heaven.

There are multiple possible reasons for this.

The first is the War in Heaven idea comes from the Apocalypse of John. Which technically makes the War in Heaven a future event, not past.

The second possibility is that the Apocalypse of John could be false and that means there was no War in Heaven.

My personal take on it, I'm Jewish, is that Satan hasn't been kicked out, but still serves his duties. Part of the reason behind that is, Satan is an office and title. It is not the proper name of a specific angel. So even if an Celestial charged with the office was kicked out, He wouldn't take the office with him. Do Presidents take their office with them when theyre impeached? Do Judges? Do Lawyers and Prosecutors? No, so technically it should be impossible for Satan to fall. The being in the position should be able to fall though like the Sarim, "princes" (see Psalm 82).

There's plenty of other scary villains to deal with, everything from Lilith to Azazel. The Sarim being the scariest. Who needs a devil when you got Princes who can stop Gabriel himself from getting to Daniel? Samael being the scariest of the Sarim, Prince of Rome(Western Civilization), is probably what inspired the Church's concept of the devil (and possibly the Church too). I mean for a human and probably even some angels, you cant get scarier than him.




[edit on 13/2/08 by MikeboydUS]

Although I don't personally follow Christianity, this is my understanding of the situation from the Christian point of view.
As far as I understand, in the "spiritual world" where exist demons and angels, Satan, God, etc, time does not work as past, present and future, the way we as mortal beings see it. Satan is supposed to be permanently cast into hell only after certain events transpire, like the second coming and armageddon and so forth. I don't know the specifics there, but the point is that certain events need to take place before Satan is permanently cast out of heaven. Until those things happen, Satan still has part of his place in heaven in a sense. I have heard that God allows Satan into heaven for the purpose of tempting the angels, kindof like what happened to Job, where God allows Satan to destroy his life and tempt him to curse God. Because Job did not curse God, he became more holy afterwards.

If you believe the bible, then you should know that God is Omni-potent. Meaning that God is all-powerful and can do ANYTHING. If he wanted to, he could make us all perfect - just like Jesus Christ.

So, why are we not all perfect? Because it's all just one big game to God. Much like any dictator here on earth ... his nation is his whimsy - his entertainment. Why does the devil exist at all, if he's so bad? Satan tempted humankind with the fruit of knowledge. He gave mankind the ability to think for himself and in turn realize that he is man and woman is woman, and they were both naked. In essence, Satan made man what he is today.

So, tell me: Is Satan that bad? Is God that good? Or are both silly as each other and outdated mythical deities that bind mankind to smaller thinking and invented conflicts? Before you answer, make sure you have your Rational button flipped on.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by tyranny22]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Good post Mike!

Now we're getting somewhere.

The first is the War in Heaven idea comes from the Apocalypse of John. Which technically makes the War in Heaven a future event, not past.

I finally found THIS to prop the saying 'war in heaven'.

It includes verses from Isaiah XIV as well as the Revelations.

Isaiah XIV

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Determining whether it is from the 'past' or from the 'future is a toughy. However, because I was looking at the events in the bible to being in chronological order, and Isaiah falls well before Revelations, I concluded that this had already happened.

The book of Job is chronologically before Revelations.

Many prophecies are intertwined in the whole of the bible.

Again, subject to interpretation, I suppose.

I appreciate your thoughts Mike!

~Ducky~






[edit on 13-2-2008 by TheDuckster]

reply to post by tyranny22


Good points for discussion Tyranny, and I would love to parlay them further, unfortuneatly, this isn't relevent to the OP.

~Ducky~



[edit on 13-2-2008 by TheDuckster]

reply to post by TheDuckster



If you read that whole chapter from Isaiah in context you'll see it is also a Prophecy and not History.

I would also argue that the figure there, Helel Ben Shaher aka mistranslated as Lucifer, is probably more of what you might call an Antichrist figure rather than an angel. Since it says there in the chapter that he is a man with children. He and them are all killed by people but he did decieve the world and was a terrible ruler.

Just make sure you read the whole chapter in context. Certain people in the Church over the centuries for some reason have tried to push corrupt and bizarre ideas that can't really be found in the Bible.