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Lucifer Always allowed back into Heaven?

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posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 08:38 AM
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This has been plaguing me forever.

According to the Bible, there was a 'war in heaven', to which one of God's Angel - Michael, cast out Satan and 1/3 of the other rebellious angels.

What puzzles me is the Book of Job.

NIV Version


Job's First Test

6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan 7 also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."


It is my understanding that Lucifer was (in the beginning) 'God's right hand man', so to speak, and was more than likely 'privy' to high councel.

When he was ousted from heaven, it appears as though he wasn't ousted for good - according to the biblical text provided above.

He shows up one day, along side other angels, to take counsel with God.

God doesn't kick him out again, but rather holds a meeting; including Satan - regarding decision making plans for God's servant Job.

What's going on here folks?

~Ducky~


 


Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

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[edit on 7/18/2008 by kinglizard]




posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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Satan is more like attorney for the prosecution.
You need to read the Bible in original greek or hebrew to get the better frame of reference for who satan is and the role played in creation.
When the bible was translated into english, especially the king james version, it corrupted much of the message.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by Hallberg Rassy
 


I wonder how the Greek translation comes into play when describing Satan being 'ousted from heaven'.

The unfortuneate part, is that alot of people are not knowledgeable with translations, and rely upon their own language sources. Ex: KJV, NIT, etc.

This would give people the impression (as well as myself) that Satan was kicked out of heaven for good.

Then along comes the Book of Job, and its like the movie "Lost in Translation."

~Ducky~



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 09:22 AM
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The Bible is not in chronological order. I have heard and read some commentary that places Job as the oldest book, predating even Moses' writing of the Pentateuch. Job was described as a giant (leviathan), so he may have been anti-deluvian. The book of Job may have pre-dated the battle between Michael and Lucifer.

I am really over my head here, and I can't even come close to backing this up, so go easy on me, ok?



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by Hallberg Rassy
 


I found what you were referring to:


Jewish Views
In the Jewish tradition, Satan is an angel who faithfully serves God as a prosecuting attorney - one who accuses men of wickedness and impiety. At the direction of God Satan may be permitted to test these accusations, such as in Job. In this view, Satan's goal is not to lead men away from their faithfulness to God, but merely to reveal the true depths of their devotion, although in I Chronicles 21:1 Satan provoked David to take a census of the people of Israel against the will of God and 70,000 men are slain because of it.


Satan and Job

I'm on a mission now, to find the Greek translations.

If the church pretty much advocated the fact that the devil was banned from heaven to rule hell (never to return?) why the contradiction in the book of Job?

~Ducky~




[edit on 12-2-2008 by TheDuckster]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:24 AM
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Satan was able to travel between Heaven and Earth until he was kicked out. So the account of Job must have taken place before that.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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just my 2 cents but in the old days(B.C.) weren't Satan and Lucifer two different people? I thought I've read that Lucifer was the fallen angel, while "satan" was the accuser and they were seperate. Beelzebub was seperate too. I'm no biblical scholar though so I may be WAY off base. It's just I take it as Lucifer is like a promethean figure, whereas Satan is like that little guy on your shoulder telling you its okay to drive after you've drank a six pack of Sam Adams Cherrywheat



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Blueracer
 


Scratching my head now. I hear what you're saying, and that brings me back to the 'chronological' reference.

Suppose what you are saying is true, then this event would have taken place before the garden of eden scenerio.

According to Genesis, these things transpired (chronologically?):

1. The devil is firstly kicked out of heaven.
2. He tempts the 'first man and woman' in the garden.
3. Adam and Eve get kicked out. (lots of booting going on here eh?)
4. Adam and Eve have children, and so forth, until we get to the book of Job.

Still pondering...

~Ducky~



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by TheDuckster
 


I do not think that Satan had been kicked out of heaven when he was in the garden of eden.

Before being kicked out, Satan could go back and forth.



[edit on 2/12/2008 by Blueracer]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Totalstranger
 


I thought they were one in the same.

The name 'Lucifer' was the very first name given to that being, meaning bringer of light, etc etc. "The shining one."

The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

The name 'Satan' allocates: 'Adversary'. Devil, serpent, and every other derogatory names there-after, were synonymouslly attributed to Lucifer.

Lucifer, in essence, became these other names.

However, this remains to be debated on another thread.

~Ducky~



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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This might confuse you Ducky and doesn't really answer your question at all (in fact it might make the situation worse): Satan is described as "accusing us before God day and night." This is in the New Testament so it seems he still has access to Heaven. He is not "thrown out for good" until the tribulation in Revelation. That is at least one interpretation by those who believe Revelation is chronological. Others believe Revelation 12 is simply John describing what happened when 'Lucifer' fell from grace the first time. Others still believe Revelation 12 is describing both the past and future.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Lucifer = the morning star
Jesus Christ = the morning star


Revelation 22:16
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give witness to you of these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.


Lucifer doesn't need to return to heaven...Lucifer is the heir:


Revelation 2:26-29
He who overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him I will give rule over the nations,
And he will be ruling them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of the potter they will be broken, even as I have power from my Father:
And I will give him the morning star.
He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches.


Lucifer means 'light-bearer.' The name Aaron also means the same thing - Moses' brother and the first of the Levitical priesthood. His main duty was carrying the sacred fire to the altar. See the symbolism?


LIGHT comes from ONE place. There is no 'false' light - either it is light or it is dark. In GOD there is no darkness and Jesus came to bring the light of GOD into the world.

Jesus said:
I am the truth, the light, and the way.

Christ Jesus = Lucifer



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by Blueracer
 


Again, a possibility, however, Genesis stipulates that it was a 'serpent' that beguiled the woman.

The outcome of that situation:

1. The lowly serpent was cursed.
2. The ground on which Adam an Eve would 'till' would be cursed.

If Lucifer was still God's right hand man at that time, stands to reason that this being would be doing 'good works' for God, not beguiling others to go against God's words.

I'm inclined to think that Lucifer was kicked out of heaven before Genesis, and the above results are proportional to that.

Is it possible that God has given permission for his creation to be tested? As well as the fact, that Lucifer has 'limited' power, and can't over-ride the will of the Creator?

The Book of Job:

God calls counsel, and everyone shows up, including the devil. The devil 'waits' upon God's decision to 'test' Job. Once the 'go ahead' has been given, the devil then wreaks havoc on poor Job.

I want to focus on this 'going back and forth' between heaven and earth, as we can clearly see the example given in my OP.

The questions remain.

1. If the devil was kicked out of heaven RE: 'War in heaven, before Genesis", then how is it the devil is able to come and go before the throne of God?
2. If God couldn't stand the sight/ways of Lucifer, and had him kicked out, did God have a change of heart somewhere along the lines, and allow the devil to influence God's decisions again?

~Ducky~



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:26 PM
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But he wasn't kicked out of heaven before genesis. I don't know what else to say if you keep asking the same question.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:30 PM
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alright I accept that the term satan can be and is applied to Lucifer, but can't it also be applied to all those other fallen angels. and does anyone know their names?

and as far as Lucifer or Lux Ferre being Jesus, I think it's deeper than that. Lucifer wanted man to taste the apple of knowledge. Yeshua Ben Jopseph would rather people have followed blind faith.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Eek! No! :p See: HERE. We can thank the Latin Vulgate and for the confusion. It will explain Lucifer, Light Bearer, Morning Star, and everything else. Thanks Jerome, you little rascal!



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by Blueracer
 


It was because of Lucifer's haughty, deceitful, beguilling, murderous ways, that triggered the 'war in heaven'.

God couldn't allow this. God put up with this iniquity for so long, and thus the eventual exile of Lucifer.

Genesis starts off with the words: In the beginning...

The start of chronological time? Before that, there was 'nothing'. Yet there are passages in the bible (after Genesis?) that make mention to 'the downfall of Lucifer'.

~Ducky~



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by Totalstranger
alright I accept that the term satan can be and is applied to Lucifer, but can't it also be applied to all those other fallen angels. and does anyone know their names?


Lucifer's 'real' name is Heylel.
Satan is not a name...it is a job.


and as far as Lucifer or Lux Ferre being Jesus, I think it's deeper than that. Lucifer wanted man to taste the apple of knowledge. Yeshua Ben Jopseph would rather people have followed blind faith.


This is deeper into it but I tend to agree. The name represents the LIGHT of TRUTH.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by Blueracer
But he wasn't kicked out of heaven before genesis.


Where is that in the bible? Show us!



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by TheDuckster
1. The lowly serpent was cursed.


The lowly serpent wasn't lowly until the curse. Before that, the serpent was the most 'subtil' of all the animals.

Meaning:
wise, prudent, and/or crafty


If Lucifer was still God's right hand man at that time, stands to reason that this being would be doing 'good works' for God, not beguiling others to go against God's words.


The serpent did not beguile Eve. She accused him of such but that is not the case. GOD never told Eve not to eat of that tree nor did GOD tell Adam to tell Eve that. And GOD did not tell Adam not to TOUCH the fruit - only not to eat.

That is, if you go by ONLY what the bible actually says and not what is popularly assumed to have happened. Check it out and see if I do not speak the truth. It is a simple scenario without the assumptions and our judgments clouding the situation.

The serpent knew this and was just revealing the facts. Another meaning of subtil is 'to lay bare.' As in to 'reveal.' Just like Jesus said all things would be revealed.

PICTURE THIS:
God says: Adam why did you eat?
Adam points at Eve.
Eve points at snake.
Snake grins sheepishly.



Is it possible that God has given permission for his creation to be tested? As well as the fact, that Lucifer has 'limited' power, and can't over-ride the will of the Creator?


Certainly ALL that goes on is under the direction of GOD!





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