Lucifer Always allowed back into Heaven?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Hi MikeboydUS/

Do Presidents take their office with them when theyre impeached? Do Judges? Do Lawyers and Prosecutors? No, so technically it should be impossible for Satan to fall. The being in the position should be able to fall though like the Sarim, "princes" (see Psalm 82).

I don't see what Psalm 82 has to do with Satan being allowed in/ out of heaven.
Can you please explain?
The presidents and Judges etc....that you clearly state are not relevant to that what is in Heaven!
Lucifer was not created like Man was.
Lucifer is an Angelic being.....as they were created not like US!
The angelic Hosts were in Heaven before Man was created.

IX
helen

reply to post by TheDuckster

I agree with the reading the translations of greek and hebrew. A good source for this is Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (google it). If one starts looking through the original scripture meanings the story becomes much clearer and you begin to see that the storys are all the same story in character. Just an example, take Jerusalem for instance.
_____Strongs_____

H3389 Yruwshalaim yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im

rarely Yruwshalayim [yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim];

a dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the
former reading, seems to be that of H3390)); probably from (the passive
participle of) H3384 and H7999; founded peaceful; Jerushalaim or
Jerushalem, the capital city of Palestine:--Jerusalem.

Jerusalem Means "Founded Peaceful", So instead of reading Jerusalem when you read scripture, place the meaning of founded peaceful over that name. Just as Satan Means adversary. Satan isn't a furry goat man, he or me or they or you or anyone apposing someone else is the Adversary. Peter=petra=Rock, "the rock" on which Christ founded his body, was called Satan directly by Jesus, so satan is not a being, but a title, Adversary. This is the reason people are renamed in the bible, they were one character before God, but after God completes them, they are given a New Character name hence, Jacob (heal catcher) became Yisrael (He will rule as God).The reason God tested Job (which means hated) was to bring himself glory by overcoming the issues through Hated (JOB). Just a side note, It is very clear in the bible that it is God who lifts up and puts down or Does Good or Does Evil. He creates Darkness and Forms Light. He does all these things. He is a God of Justice which means he wants to be equal with you not lord over you, he wants you to be responsible for yourselves because he is responsible for self. The more you drop of you, the more you remember of him. "And i will tabernacle (house myself) in the midst (middle, inside) of them, and I will be to them God and they shall be to me MY PEOPLE" and he says, "he bares our iniquitys (uneveness)""and is judged with us", he was in Job. "Holy Spirit" means Hallowed Spirit. Hallowed is "Dug in" or "emptied" to make room for something. So the Holy spirit is the "Inside Spirit". Maybe that will clear up why "Blasphamy" of the holy spirit is the only unforgivable offence (according to Jesus). So if you blasphamy the holy spirit, you are hating on yourself and therefore hating God

reply to post by helen670



I'll break it down, I should of done that earlier to clarify my point.

Psalm 82,

1 G-d standeth in the Adat'El (the Assembly of El); He judgeth among the Elohim.

This is the same Adat'El from the Book of Job, where the Bnai Elohim and the Morning Stars are gathered before the Throne of G-d. The same one where the Satan has an audience with G-d in Job.

2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they awalk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

These Elohim are being Judged and being threatened by G-d. Some have argued that these are references to people, yet no where in the Tanakh has these terms brought together in unison ever refered to humans. This is no different than the references to the same terms in Job and Genesis. Meaning these are not human. The following makes it even clearer, especially upon seeing the Hebrew.

6 I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are Bnai (Children of) Elyon (the Most High).
7 But ye shall Temuntun (become mortal) like Adam, and fall like one of the Sarim (Princes).
8 Arise, O G-d, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Do you now see why I referenced this? The Hebrew is very clear on it.

If your not familiar with the Sarim, you might want to go back and read Daniel. Some of them stop Gabriel from reaching Daniel. I guarantee you know the name of one them, the only of them who is Just and Righteous, which is Michael, Prince of Israel, aka the Archangel. Michael helps Gabriel and insures that he reaches Daniel.

Even in the Christian Testament, there is a reference to Powers and Principalities. That would most likely be those Sarim, fallen or not.

In addition you might want to go back and read Isaiah, the chapter about Helel Ben Shaher, aka sometimes mistranslated as the Roman deity Lucifer son of Venus. Here I'll help you out with Chapter 14: Check out these verses in reference to the so called Angelic Lucifer,

First lets put it in context:

14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Note: Do you see this is refering to a Future event where Israel sings of the fall of the King of Babylon.

14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

Seems like a pretty terrible guy, this King of Babylon, apparently ruling over many nations.

14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

This guy was so bad that the Whole Earth rejoices at his fall and sings of his demise.

14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Even the Trees are happy!

14:9 Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Even all the dead kings and rulers of the Earth prepare to welcome him to Sheol.

14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

The dead are amazed that he has become like one them, dead.

14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

This once great and proud King of Babylon is now covered with worms.

Just who is this King who was so great and proud, who ruled over the nations. Who was so terrible that the whole earth rejoiced at his death?

14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O Shining one, Son of the Dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.

The Shining One, Helel, aka Lucifer and Phosphoros. This will be the once Mighty and Proud King of Babylon that the whole world will sing of and rejoice when he dies.

14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of G-d: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Notice the I will Ascend into the Heavens? This King of Babylon said in His Heart that he would be greater than G-d and Stars (Angels) of the Heavens. Of course he never physically did that, It Was In His Heart.
He never had a chance to Ascend into Heaven.

14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the uttermost parts of the pit.

No He would die, He would never ascend to the Heavens. The only place he was going was Sheol, the realm of the dead.

14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Is this the Man that did terrorize the Earth?

14:17 That made the world as a waste, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

This guy was really bad. I mean Destroying whole cities and not releasing prisoners. This guy laid waste to the Earth! So were probably talking about a guy who starts World War III or a Nuclear War at least.

14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

So he shall be killed and will not be entombed. He shall not recieve a proper burial.

14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers, that they not rise up, and possess the earth, and fill the surface of the world with cities.

And thus his children shall be killed as well, lest they rise up and rule the earth.

14:22 And I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will destroy the name of Babylon, and the remains, and the bud, and the offspring, saith the Lord. 14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

So Babylon is Destroyed, erased from History, and the Line of the King ends.

Thus Lucifer, the Shining One will be a Man, who dreams of ascending to Heaven, who lays waste to the Earth, but He and his children shall be killed. The Whole world will sing and rejoice over his death and the destruction of Babylon.

To check the translation for Psalm 82 from modern and ancient Hebrew with transliteration and multiple translations, go here:
www.hebrewoldtestament.com...

For Isaiah 14: www.hebrewoldtestament.com...









[edit on 14/2/08 by MikeboydUS]

Okay, so I was born and raised Catholic, but now that I am older, I chose not to participate in any specific religious organization so I am a little rusty on my bible knowledge. All this talk of Lucifer and Satan, some saying they are two differant people and all that, I get it, well sort of. Here's my question then; WHO THE HECK IS THE DEVIL then. If Lucifer was an angel and was thrown out but may or may not be still in God's good graces and Satan is a "representation" or a "procecutor" or whatever, then who is the devil?

reply to post by TheDuckster


I guess you're right.

I was just trying to make the point that if most people used rational thought, this conversation wouldn't even be occurring.

But, you're right. In essence my statement was a de-rail. Sorry about that.

On with the thread!

reply to post by Cowgirlstraitup7


See my above post I laid out the Lucifer verses from the Bible, I think pretty well. Someone would have to be pretty much blind to not see the implications. So that would explain who Lucifer is or more correctly Will Be.

Satan, your right is like a Celestial Prosecutor.

So who or what is the Devil? Well supposedly the word devil comes from the Greek Diabolos. This word Diabolos is the important one though, its the one used in the Christian Testament. Devil is just a word used for translation.

So what is Diabolos? An Accuser. If you look at Satan, he would be the Diabolos. He is the Chief Accuser, accusing Humanity, like in the case of Job. Essentially he feels humanity are Unclean Wicked Criminals who should be sentenced by G-d. In Jobs case he tries to prove it but fails. That doesn't stop him from Proving other people should be judged and unlike Job, the case doesnt always fail.

So Satan would be Diabolos, but the modern concept of the Devil doesn't originate in the Bible. The silly red guy with horns, well he's not Satan. The modern concept of the Devil is based on the Greek god Pan and other pagan influences. Satan, biblically is nothing like Pan, but more like the Greek Nemesis and the Furies.




[edit on 14/2/08 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by Cowgirlstraitup7


My $0.02 worth:

"Lucifer" was actually not a spiritual being, but a human. Jewish scholars of the book of Isaiah always considered this to refer to Tigleth-pilaser, a Babylonian king. The word "Lucifer" does not appear in the original text, but was added by St. Jerome.

At some point, Christians began taking this story and applying it to the devil, but there's really no historical reason to do so. "Lucifer" only appears once in the KJV (in Isaiah), and historically, it referred to the king of Babylon.

"Satan" is almost certainly a corruption of Set, an ancient Egyptian deity. The Hebrew exodus occured, or was at least said to occur, during the Setian dynasty. So the chief god of the enemy became the Hebrew devil.

Hasn't it been stated that in the Christian Heaven is not connected to that thing called time?
Wouldn't a kicking out and coming back be a linear thing (other words time)?

Could be wrong because as at least one has stated my Christian Bible stuff is rusty.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by MikeboydUS



Hi and thank you for the references MikeboyedUS/

And you are correct in the WORD 'Diabolos-Devil' meaning slanderer, it does come from the greek Word....
The devil was called "Satan," a Hebrew word meaning "enemy," which parallels the Greek word diabolis, which means "divider."
The word demon is Greek and means "the fallen angel."
In Greek "diabolos" (Διαβολος), meaning "slanderer" or "one who accuses falsely" (derived from the verb "dia-ballô" (δια-βαλλω) which most literally means "to throw across" or "carry something over"here



What I don't agree with you is that Lucifer is or will be a man///your quote below

Thus Lucifer, the Shining One will be a Man,

Why I dont agree and it cannot be that Lucifer will be a man?
Lucifer///
If Lucifer is a created Angel, then he cannot change form to become a man...only God has that capability.

''Thou wast...full of wisdom, perfect in beauty.
Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God; every precious stone was thy covering…Thou wast a cherub stretched out and protecting, and I set thee in the holy mountain of God…Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day of thy creation, until iniquity was found in thee. (Ezek. 28:11-18)

And Isaiah:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning?…Thou saidst in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven.
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit in the mountain of the covenant…I will ascend above the heights of the clouds.
I will be like the Most High! (Is. 14:12-14)

So, if Satan(Lucifer)was cast out of Heaven.......In 'Revelation' the Apocalypse, foretells what it is to be Revealed right at the very end,something that awaits all of us, including Judgment and sentencing for all .....Satan and his demons were cast and that followed and worshipped the beast and teh false prophet.....

Where does Satan and his demons dwell?
Scripture tells us that they are in "high places" (Eph. 6:12)
And that Satan is called "prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2)....which is the aerial realms, the skies above.

Satan "was cast out into the earth, and his angels were east out with him... neither was their place found any more in heaven" (Rev. 12:7-8).

I will be like the Most High.' Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isaiah 14:12-15).
The prophet Ezekiel symbolizes the king of Tyre with the fallen Cherubim: "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty,
thou hast been in Eden the garden of God …
Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou has been created until iniquity was found in thee … therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God,
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire … I will cast thee to the ground" (Ezekiel 28:12-18).
This fall was as fast as the lightning described by the Lord Jesus Himself in the gospel of St. Luke: "I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18).
rest on Angels

As for the Psalm 82 ///“God became man, that man might become god.” (Cf. Psalm 82:6: & St. John 10:34)Become god meaning by adoption, not God!


IX
helen

[edit on 2/20/2008 by helen670]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


What an excellent topic Ducky! I read everyone's replies and found some interesting and some 'alarming' But I have to say, of all the responses Mikeboyd's is line upon line truth. He went to the source, the Word, for his answers and boom, just like that, Yahweh gave it to him. Isn't our God an awesome God?? Thank you for such a great topic, which has also kept me up a many a night reading over and over. And Mikeboyd, I think I've read every commentary at my local library and none, not one has even come close to yours in this thread. Greater is He that is in you, I pray that you will continue to use your blessing most humbly and wisely


Queenannie38

Originally posted by queenannie38
Lucifer = the morning star
Jesus Christ = the morning star

Jesus said:
I am the truth, the light, and the way.

Christ Jesus = Lucifer

Where oh where are you getting your information from? Surely you do not believe that the king of Babylon spoken of in Isaiah 14 is the King of Kings, Savior Messiah Yahshua(Jesus)???? Clearly if you read the entire chapter -no matter the mistranslation of the name-you can see that he is NOT taking up a proverb against our Messiah!!

Also:John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

reply to post by helen670


Did you read the whole chapter in Isaiah about "Lucifer"? I laid it out above. He's clearly a man, who has children, dreams of ascending to heaven but is killed and not buried. Its all right there, if you dont take my word for it, take out a Bible turn to Isaiah and read the whole chapter In Context

Remember this, from your quote: "Thou saidst in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven." In His Heart, he is imagining his ascension.

Ezekiel 28 is another one about man, this time the Prince of Tyre rather than the King of Babylon. I dont want to derail the thread by going over it, but if you want I could try to start a thread, but it may get dumped into belowtopsecret. I'll still try if you would like.

Another silly thing to point out is that the Skies, have always been thought of as the Second Heaven. I wonder what kind of meaning that could bestow upon your quote about the Powers of the Air, as the Apostles would of definetly knew about the concept of the many Heavens, Shamayim.

I'm unclear on your interpretation of Psalm 82, can you explain further?

Keep in mind I am Jewish, so I go with the Jewish Testament, aka your Old Testament, and not the latter Gospels or Letters. That doesnt mean I completely ignore them, but I am very skeptical. I like to look at things real hard and there is an issue in the gospels and Acts dealing with Judas (discrepencies with the silver, death, burial, and land) that makes me very skeptical and probably worthy of its own thread.


[edit on 22/2/08 by MikeboydUS]

Erm. Anyone going to bother to answer my question?
You know this one:

Hasn't it been stated that in the Christian Heaven is not connected to that thing called time?
Wouldn't a kicking out and coming back be a linear thing (other words time)?

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Erm. Anyone going to bother to answer my question?
You know this one:

Hasn't it been stated that in the Christian Heaven is not connected to that thing called time?
Wouldn't a kicking out and coming back be a linear thing (other words time)?

Some people believe that but there are no Biblical verses to back it up. There are verses that indicate some kind of temporal disparity comparable to that reported in Celtic myth about the Celtic Otherworld.

There are also verses that indicate that G-d experiences or perceives time differently than humans.

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.--Psalm 90:4

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Wouldn't that argue against, well to use slang.
God being all up in someones bidness. Since we don't exist even a blink of time?

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Wouldn't that argue against, well to use slang.
God being all up in someones bidness. Since we don't exist even a blink of time?

Well, if G-d was human and had a linear mind, I would say yes.

Considering that G-d is not human, I'd imagine G-d's mind is probably more complex and non linear than a Quantum Computer.

Here's something bizarre to think about, Theoretically the Most Powerful Computer in the entire Universe would be a Black Hole.
www.sciam.com...

What happens to Time at the Event Horizon of a Black hole?

Plus some interesting quotes about where G-d dwells. Hmmm.

Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. 2 Chronicles 6:1

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. Psalm 18:11

97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. Psalm 97:2

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Hasn't it been stated that in the Christian Heaven is not connected to that thing called time?
Wouldn't a kicking out and coming back be a linear thing (other words time)?

Could be wrong because as at least one has stated my Christian Bible stuff is rusty.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by WraothAscendant]

I guess this is staying on topic although it could lead to 'getting off the OP'
What is your meaning of "Christian Heaven"? Heaven is Heaven, it is YHWH's throne (Isaiah 66:1 & Acts 7:49) AND Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Matt 7:21) So in other words there is no such thing as a "Christian Heaven" or a Jew Heaven or Man's Heaven....Heaven doen't belong to us, we seek to enter in through the narrow gate and the gate is NARROW. And who stands at the door? Yahshua, the Son of YHWH does, so noone can enter in except through Him, (the keeper of the door and the keeper of the keys) It's not my rules it's His. I want to be with Him and I hope to see everyone of you there. But it's not my decision or yours as to who enters and when, be it me, you, or Lucifer...The way I see it is, if God wants to bring EVERYTHING back to Him, including those that fell, it is His choice. How can the clay argue or even question the Potter??

The Kingdom of Heaven is quite the mystery anyway. Yahshua gives many many parables or 'peeks' into the Kingdom, in fact He even stated that He was/is the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt 12:28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. How awesome! How mega "lucky" were those who witnessed His glorious work in the flesh!

Hope this helps!

reply to post by TheDuckster

god didnt kick lucifer and the fallen angels out he kicked the men lucifer was ruling over out of heaven satan and his angels stay in heaven to test God and good angels the only reason the fallen angels went to earthwas to ruin the geneology of christ those angels went to hell while he ones who stayed in heaven are there to test the brethren and will be kicked out in rev never to come back except when they are banished in the lake of fire

I personally believe Satan is never allowed entrance in Heaven. Yes there was a meeting with him and God and the other angels as you said but it was not a litteral "Paradise". As you know that Satan right now desparately wants to regain his position and he can't anymore. Tell me, Satan lives in hell where it is horribe, demons are crying everyday running away from hell and all that, then you tell me that being given a chance to come back to heaven will be dream come true and i do not think they will waste that chance in other words they will be pleading with God to bring them back. Plus Satan can not stand in the presence of God and the holy angels, if he can't stand on fervent men of God like you and me what about God. I know God has authority to call things and tey obey immediately and all that but as for the devil i don't think it was a literal Heaven it must have been somewhere, because the bible says no iniquity shall enter heaven again

God bless

reply to post by Icarus Rising

The Bible is not in chronological order. I have heard and read some commentary that places Job as the oldest book, predating even Moses' writing of the Pentateuch.

As Satan was supposedly evil when he tempted Eve,the chronological order does not matter.

Satan is the official title for the Angel who works for God,through him God can test the faith of mankind.As the book of Job shows us,the Satan can and will tempts us by any means necessary.

This is exactly what the "Devil" does! He tempts mankind,he works for God not against him.But many Christians cannot handle this and the fact that evil was created by God.

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Proverbs 6:4

he LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

this verse clearly indicates that evil has a purpose.

Many people argue that God couldn't have created evil because no unclean thing can dwell with him.Yet that doesn't mean he cannot create it.After all,he is God,he can do whatever the hell he wants!









[edit on 18-7-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by jakyll


Hi jakyll

I think I know where you're coming from, but I just wanted to sound a slight note of caution:

No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone.

James 1:13

Clearly God does not specify what Satan is to do.

However - and I trust this is your meaning - as the Lord is omnipotent He permits Satan to have free reign within specific bounds that He Himself sets.

Thus in Job 1:12 God said to Satan:

...everything he owns is in your power. However you must not lay a hand on Job himself.

Ultimately, therefore, Satan's intentions are only evil, yet God's wisdom is so unfathomable that He is able to include Satan's twisted schemes in His all-pervasive will, which, as you mentioned, includes the testing and purifying of the faith of His people.