The government lied to us...and they should have

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
fantasy about my family on the plane? fantasy? wow...I guess I look at the wrong websites when I'm not here.

Well, you are right, a better word is imagine, but you know what I mean, and that is the intention.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Because I haven't been through the situation does that mean I am not allowed to have an opinion?

I don’t mention in any way that you are not allowed to have an opinion.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
So, if i had lost a family member on the plane should the government have taken a different course...No.
I am trying to look at this from an outside and objective point of view. My reason from bringing this up was to get away from the emotion and look at the idea maybe they did the right thing.

But it are precisely the emotions that play such a very big role in the line of thought, that is why I ask you those questions.
I don’t wanted to attack in any way.

To say that we must be lied to because if not, everything is on the table and the enemy will have the upper hand is using false logic and extreme examples to break and tear down your opponent's argument.


They have no right to lie to us. They only have the right to withhold certain information ... as I stated before, special military projects that are far above and beyond what the rest of the world has and has knowledge of.


There is NO reason to lie about a plane being targeted such as 800. Economy would not have faltered.


In fact, the argument isn't very valid anyway, since the market fluctuates and has drops. People run out of money or get smart and quit acquiring debt (credit) occasionally.


Look at our current market fluctuations ... look at our current up and down spending trends. They are in no way related to terrorism.


Not everyone is going to bend in an argument, especially not on ATS.

The people deserve the truth on all matters, and honesty is the only way we can trust them.

There has never been, and will never be a good time to lie.

Again, before you say your blanket statement, some things are hidden, but pretty much the only thing that should be are things like current Stealth and more advanced than that tech, which we will use to DEFEND ourselves, not attack other countries.

If they are planning to do something, but, they think they will need to lie to the public and the world about doing it ... guess what, they shouldn't do it.

It is called doing the right thing, not whatever you please.


Be honest, would you trust me if I lied to you about my house, my car, my job, my actions, my social interactions ... because it wasn't a need to know? Would you still respect me?

Or, would you trust and respect me more if I told you the truth and withheld certain things that I felt were private and not of your business (like a new invention I haven't patented yet).


I think you may be playing devil's advocate for fun. I am all for that. A good debate is always fun, even if it is practice. I have done this with friends, swapping sides once I convinced them of the one I 'played', until they asked me to stop. Intellectual stimulation is a good thing.

But, can you honestly tell everyone here, you would rather them lie to you. Let us say the numbers in your primary are fake. You would rather them lie and tell you your vote counted than know that the person you voted for never had a chance? That not one decent soul would come out with the truth so that the broken system could be mended and worked as it is intended to?

What if they took your child ... they lie and told you they were a terrorist and were sent to gitmo ... but the truth is, they were part of a peaceful protest against the patriot act and asking for the constitution to be upheld.



Instead of thinking from some outside point of view, make it personal within your own life.


Once given permission to lie, they don't stop with the big things, and the more they do it, the easier it is and it becomes habitual.


I have watched people go from decent to compulsive liars from starting out with little fibs and working their way up. If you start with a big lie, how hard would it be to lie about a petty thing, not nearly as much.



Thanks to the above poster for giving the definition of democracy. Some people forget that is what we were founded to be.

I do admit, we are more capitalist and quickly becoming a nation of war (because it is profitable to some, capitalism again) ... which can quickly lead to the destruction of our democratic republic and quite a dirty from of rule that would follow behind it.



If you want to be lied to, ok. Everything is perfect. Soon we will have world peace and money will be abolished. You will be able to work doing the things you love and never have to worry about food, shelter, nor hydration. You will be able to choose anywhere on the planet to live on. Just be patient and trust in your leaders, for, they do no harm to any life on this planet.


Well, I wish it was true anyway. An idealistic society of love, integrity, respect, dreams, hopes, freedom, peace, and happiness.


Oh well. Guess your right, living in a lie is better, but some psychiatrists would call that delusional or at least unhealthy.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

I'd rather not live in ignorance. If we just sit back and assume the government knows whats best for us and don't question, we will end up with no freedoms. We, as American citizens are responsible for policing the government to ensure proper checks and balances.

Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty.

Questioning is wonderful...even a healthy exercise for the mind. but when nothing is believed and there is conspiracy behind every corner it turns into...paranoia.

Of course and this is EXACTLY what has happened to some people on ATS. I'm not naive to believe there are no conspiracies but I'm not gullable enough to believe everything is a conspiracy.

When our government attempts to cover up corruption and incompetence and someone should put it in the spotlight. The mayor of Detroit, Michigan is a perfect example. He has attempted to cover up corruption and the local news is shining a big, bright light on him as it should.

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist

I think my point has been made.
It is clear there is nothing our current government can do that would be thought of as acceptable....nothing.
When they don't provide information...they are liars or they are men somehow scheming behing the scenes to take liberties.
Come on...that's just silly.
You make it sound as though every person in government is there for that sole purpose.
I guess they all are working with this "illuminati?"
Alex Jones thinks so...shouts it in that bullhorn of his to anyone and everyone...
He is a televised stalker.

When the government does provide information (like 9-11) no one believes what they say, because they "just know" there has to be more behind it.
They can't win. The conspiracy minded person always wins...
Maybe the real conspiracy is the conspiracy theory? Maybe the government sends pawns out to start them so everyone doesn't see the truth....u see how this can go? there is no end to it
What people want, is to live in a place where everything is in the open. I understand (I really do) why it would be nice but it is not possible. It is naive to think it can be
There is some hint or even outright verbage, that I want to be lied to. That doesn't make any sense. Yes, I tell everyone I come across...lie to me.

In true democracy, EVERYTHING would be voted on by the whole of the people. Everyone says "yes" or "no." That idea is absurd so...we have people who represent the people. We vote on who we think the will be the best person in our stead. Hence, it is called a representative democracy (if that sounds a little better).

I'm sure people think I am a government agant sent here to say this too...

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
It is clear there is nothing our current government can do that would be thought of as acceptable....nothing.

Telling us the truth would be acceptable.

Doing things in our best interest would be acceptable.

Listening to, and caring, what we think about policies and actions would be acceptable.

Since they do none of the above, it's unacceptable.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
When they don't provide information...they are liars or they are men somehow scheming behing the scenes to take liberties.
Come on...that's just silly.

Why is it "silly"?

You people that think the American government is this collection of great people who would never do anything to harm you always amaze me at how ignorant you are.

And despite your opinion being wrong, you people are the most arrogant individuals I've ever seen. You provide absolutely no proof to back up your assertion that they would never do a thing to harm you.

Yet, those of us who know the truth and know the government acts in it's own interests and not ours constantly provide proof, and you reject it because you either A) have too big of an ego to accept the fact you're wrong, or B) are too scared of the truth to allow this to seep in to your mind as the truth.

This isn't about the over used generalizations made by people like you who will first label us conspiracy theorists, then move on to bring in reptilians, mind control, and aliens.

This is about a consistent DOCUMENTED HISTORY of policies and actions made by OUR government that is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and AGAINST our interest, and ALL signs seem to point to a one world government. One world government of complete control.

Do you honestly think someone with too much time on their hands living in their mom's basement just thought that # up? Yeah, I'm sure. "LOL I'M GONNA SPREAD THIS RUMOR THAT THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE WORLD ARE MERGING FOR A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT AND I'M GONNA PLANT ALL OF THIS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE AND DOCUMENTATION SO THAT I CAN SPREAD THIS RUMOR LOL!"

That makes a whole lot of sense.

People like you like to tell yourselves we're sitting here making this # up, more than likely just to make yourselves feel better or more intelligent.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
You make it sound as though every person in government is there for that sole purpose.

No one is making it sound like that. You're stating that to solidify your weak point.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
When the government does provide information (like 9-11) no one believes what they say, because they "just know" there has to be more behind it.

There's tons of proof that completely debunks the official story. You've clearly never studied it.

You represent another funny type of person: the one who pretends to know it all but hasn't spent one second researching it, and ends up making him/herself look like a jackass when he tries to pawn off his information as legit in front of many people who have done the research.

You use general terms and statements so you don't have to present any evidence. You feel as if this makes you look intelligent, but still makes it so you don't have to back anything up.

That's the work of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, and even further, a troll.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
That idea is absurd so...we have people who represent the people. We vote on who we think the will be the best person in our stead. Hence, it is called a representative democracy (if that sounds a little better).

You'd make them proud. Yes, a system where we get to choose which of their puppets we want, and we hand off all the powers and work to them so they can freely do as they please while we continue about our American lifestyles.

Great political system, "Johnny Utah".

You'd make a good dictator, I'm sure.

Are you 35 yet? If you are, perhaps you can be our new "decider".

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
I'm sure people think I am a government agant sent here to say this too...

Mature.

That's overused, dude. Making a stupid statement like that to attempt to make us feel like we're crazy, and then put the laughing emoticons.

Really. Give it a rest. Find something new.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi



Easy, tiger….
Again, you made my point. “…telling us the truth” and ”what is in our best interest”
Now if you are trying to say there is no such thing as altruism, then I agree.
My main point, was “you people,” as you referred to me, wouldn’t believe what they said, no matter what it is! They always are lying. Nothing is acceptable. You think the world would be a better place and a safer place if we had no secrets (no security). I guess with that we would stand around hugging each other and nothing bad would ever happen?

You seem to think, one day you will wake up and there will be an overlord in the White House with a chorus of cheering masons around him. Conspiracy thinkers or not, do you think people would stand for that? Maybe you have watched enough “documentaries” on the internet to believe that…if so, I feel very sorry for you.
I am not a flat out fan of the government, but I am a flat out fan of the US. It is the “in” thing now to think the US is this evil power set on destroying the freedoms of everyone. If you look through WORLD HISTORY you will see it is just the opposite…and obviously so. The French Minister of Defense even said so!
And you said something about aliens and mind control…you really believe aliens are working with the government? You think this breed of creature(s) which is so advanced needs the government to control the world? Or is it this mysterious illuminati that is in control? Both?
How many conspiracy theories do you actually believe in? And none of them are a contradiction to the other? I’m sure they all fit right into place…somehow.
With 9-11…
Like I said before (again), it would take tons (many tons) of explosives to bring the towers down. Yet no one saw? The people in the building thought dynamite was normal? Were they in on it too? Was that their role in the “plot.” They were to be crushed and burned alive?
A group of people can’t decided where to go for lunch but, yet all these people understood bringing down the towers was a good idea and they didn’t tell a soul…that makes no sense at all!
Could it be possible that two of the largest buildings man ever made fell down and the weight of them began distorting and changing things? Is it not even possible?? It is possible since we had never seen destruction on that scale…things weren’t what we would think or expected them would be?
I am not saying the government is perfect, nor is it filled with all good people. But to think their aim…
“This is about a consistent DOCUMENTED HISTORY of policies and actions made by OUR government that is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and AGAINST our interest, and ALL signs seem to point to a one world government. One world government of complete control.”
Are there some who want that yes…I understand that. Do I want that…heck no! But you make it sound as though it is the overwhelming current in DC…everyone is out to get you. When everyone is out to get you...when everyone is out to take your freedom...wow, you must be pretty important.
If a person sees the same thing you do, but doesn’t believe it…you think they are either a fool or a “sheep.” How is that open thinking?
How is that not wanting to control the minds of others?

Novus is right, you can't back up a thing you are saying. You're talking out of your ass.
I tell you what Johnny, why don't you convince me that 911 happened just as the government claimed. Explain to me exactly how building 7 collapsed despite not being hit by a plane and suffering only minor damage from falling debris and a small fire. Tell me how two huge skyscrapers could collapse at free fall speed, from a fire that was not nearly hot enough to structurally weaken steel.
Why was nobody reprimanded, let alone fired or Court Martialed, in the Air Force for allowing 4 planes to be hijacked and then flown into buildings without being intercepted? Why are about half the people on the list of hijackers still alive and proven to have not been involved? Why does this list not match the list the airlines have?
Why has this administration stalled and obstructed anyone who wants to investigate any aspect of 911? Why do they refuse to allow an independent investigation of the attack?
Why was there no evidence that an airliners wings ever hit the pentagon? One could see exactly where the wings went into the twin towers, yet the pentagon didn't have a scratch where the wings should have hit, and there was no evidence of wing debris outside the building. Did the wings just evaporate? Why did the FBI confiscate all the security camera video that might have caught the "plane" crashing into the Pentagon, yet only release a small snippet of one video that does not show the plane actually hitting the building?
Most of all, why doesn't the Government answer any of these questions? Why has nobody thoroughly investigated these crimes?
The 911 commission was a hand picked, partisan white wash committee that utterly failed to satisfactorily answer any of these questions.
If the Government's version of 911 is true, it should stand up to any degree of scrutiny. Sadly, quite the opposite is the case.

reply to _Johnny_Utah_[/url]

I agree, you can keep a secret to preserve much needed security in regards to many situations. However when you lie about something, that is not sharing a secret, but telling a lie.

I think thats what this post is really about. I think most of us agree that secrets can be for the good of the people, but lies are not for the good of the people.

Hey guys. Its my first time posting

J_U might have a point regarding how the government handles sensitive information. If an asteroid were on a collision course with earth, world governments would need to be very delicate about the way in which this information is dealt with.
However, that doesn't entail lying to the people.

I'm sure you're all familiar with the saying - 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Giving a government the right to lie to its people, and not be accountable for it, is encouraging corruption (In essence, we are talking about some form of power over media). Sadly rules exist not for those who will follow them, but for those who will break them. Either lying is totally acceptable within society, or it isn't. There is no middle ground.

The large portion of the members have a very valid argument when it comes to their mistrust of the US government. I'm South African, but I've watched this war unfold on TV as you have. I don't think people really stop and take stock of the fact that the Bush administration has taken its country to war on a bunch of lies. MILLIONS have been KILLED, and a country lies in ruins. Contemplate that for a second.

US media seemed to be caught up in the pre-war frenzy too. They were almost too eager to get their journalists to the front line. The 'voice of the common man' that is supposed to be the media, was more interested in the caliber of the abrahams tank guns
I know most of you don't put much stock in main stream media. As well you shouldn't...Evidence of US government control over it's media is blatantly obvious at times. Hey, it happens everywhere in the world.
Funny how the Russian bomber flying over a US carrier made CNN soon after it occurred.

My point is, every government has its elements of corruption. As long as we don't accept it, we have a chance of ensuring it never overruns an administration.

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere but I'll keep trying. The assertion was made by you that "we don't live in a democracy", "this is not a democracy", then you say in this last post we are a represented democracy which is a democracy, just trying to make sense of all this. What do you claim the U.S. to be? The only way to involve us more in the political process is to do just that, let us vote on policies on the national level, start simple and slow and gradually let us vote on more and more issues. You seem convinced this will not work although it has never been tried and therefore there is no way you can know this for sure. It's a better idea than doing nothing to reign in the govt., which is what you seem to believe is the best answer.

I can understand the policy behind censorship of C.I.A. agents' I.D., or location, some hot new technology we don't others getting their hands on, but there is no excuse for holding back knowledge of incidents, policies, actions of political leaders. In other words it's okay for them to withold the specific info about top secret projects like how they function,what they are made of etc... ,but it is not okay to pretend to the people and other lawmakers these projects aren't going on. These actions are the causation of paranoid individuals who refuse to trust the govt.! If it wasn't for the govt. lying this website and forum might not have a need to exist.

Let me as you this "Johnny Utah". Do you think it is acceptable for the government to lie to the people regarding the facts of 9/11?

reply to post by Shedman

www.debunking911.com...
www.debunking911.com...

Originally posted by azblack
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere but I'll keep trying. The assertion was made by you that "we don't live in a democracy", "this is not a democracy", then you say in this last post we are a represented democracy which is a democracy, just trying to make sense of all this. What do you claim the U.S. to be? The only way to involve us more in the political process is to do just that, let us vote on policies on the national level, start simple and slow and gradually let us vote on more and more issues. You seem convinced this will not work although it has never been tried and therefore there is no way you can know this for sure. It's a better idea than doing nothing to reign in the govt., which is what you seem to believe is the best answer.

I can understand the policy behind censorship of C.I.A. agents' I.D., or location, some hot new technology we don't others getting their hands on, but there is no excuse for holding back knowledge of incidents, policies, actions of political leaders. In other words it's okay for them to withold the specific info about top secret projects like how they function,what they are made of etc... ,but it is not okay to pretend to the people and other lawmakers these projects aren't going on. These actions are the causation of paranoid individuals who refuse to trust the govt.! If it wasn't for the govt. lying this website and forum might not have a need to exist.

You actually seem reasonable...
The democracy comments came from a page or two back when Webster signed on and started throwing definitions out.
I was trying point out how this is not a true democracy. In many ways we use the democratic process, but it is not a TRUE democracy...that is why the three powers are in place for checks and balances.
SOmeone said the our elected leaders should be REQUIERED on EVERY vote they make to check with the people first. All I was trying to point out is....that is not how this system was set up. Of course they should do the will of the people, but if they went back and consulted and polled and chatted with everyone, they would never be able to do the job they were elected to do.

i agree with you, the only way to make change is to vote in the people who can affect the change. Many (i am not saying you, if you don't believe the same way) here, however, seem to think the government in place is not the real one in power, so voting is pointless. The ones who say that im sure haven't registered to vote and so they use that as an easy way out, but useful when it comes to complaining and believing in phantom powers at work. They say the illuminati is in charge or reptile-like aliens are here to eat us like the on the show from the '80's called "V."
I don't see how it is possible all the theories floated around, don't contradict eachother.
Come on....reptiles?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

...that is why the three powers are in place for checks and balances.

Checks and balances has been invalidated by the Patriot Act.

i agree with you, the only way to make change is to vote in the people who can affect the change.

How are we supposed to know who to vote for when the truth on many issues is hidden and deliberately falsified? If Flight 800 was shot down by terrorists, then I am sure that this knowledge would have had bearing on the outcome of following elections, had it been know publicly.





[edit on 2/13/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
I respect this logical representation of your thoughts/views since the last post, I thought you were trying to assert we were in no way a democracy. I seemed to have gotten you off topic though. I personally believe we have become more socialist, though, again, I don't think that's where you intended this thread to go.

The theory af illumanati (or the enlightened ones) can refer to so many different groups, I have often questioned the use of the word in this website though as it confuses the real problems at hand in govt. The illumanati at work in our society is the corporate upperclass, military industrial complex, media and so forth. It is the conspiracy fact of corporation control over everyday life.This is a fact not theory ,I must say, as they exhibit this control on an everyday basis.

As I commented before I believe there is certain circumstances which warrant caution in making facts known, but these instances are extremely limited. This fact has been misconstrued in govt. to include instances which benefit themselves. They misuse it on a daily basis when they speak of policies they intend to enact,i.e. earmarks on bills, intentionally misleading wording of legislation, so on. These actions are all justified by claiming the same basis as the lies told explaining incidents, the govt. seems to believe some things are beyond the comprehension of normal people, or it will cause economic impacts. Don't you realize the motivation behind these economic lies are to protect the corporate parties who may be involved, they like to act as if they are protecting us but the fact is they are protecting campaign contributers. Most Americans are not effected by small circumstantial waves in the stock market but the bottom line is.

Where do you think the line should be drawn. I have asserted mine would be the facts such as agent I.D., Immediate military projects only such as the surprise element of battle, the facts associated with top secret development of weapons, however the development projects themselves should be general knowledge and debated for importance in the different sections of govt.. Also the fact we have agents involved in espionage should not be denied but their i.d. should be. The surprise of battles should be protcted but the whole operation has to be divulged. This is the problem with lies, people end up finding out eventually, where do you draw the line, and when the people do find out they've been lied to it ruins and undermines the intentions the lie was originally developed for, to make us feel better. In contrast it actually causes reasons for rebellion and revolt.

reply to post by azblack

I agree with you on most of what you say...I really do.
If I have made it sound like I think you have not thought through your ideas either...I am very sorry. I never meant to do that.
Yes, there are many things that worry me about the way the country is going...without a doubt we are heading or trying to be guided towards socialism.
Again, I can't remember the person who said it (so if that matters, I understand this doesn't count), but it was a Russian or Soviet leader who explained why socialism failed in the USSR. He said, roughly...For socialism to win in a country, it has to start out as a capitalistic one. When the people become so unhappy with striving, working, and others having more than them...they will turn to socialism.
I see the roots of that taking hold.
does that mean there are people who want socialism or have that as a sighted goal? I'm sure...but they are probably socialists.
the problem I have with the idea of the illuminati (I believed they existed for a long time) is how broad and sweeping the idea of them is. What ever happens, good or bad, they had a part in it. It can all be explained away as being part of their "plan." It is an easy way out.
I said before, I don't see if they are so vast and have total control over everything...why has it taken over 200yrs to get get to point where they are "starting" to implement their plans?
does asking that mean I don't see masonic symbols in places? No. All I have to do is go by a lighter (yes, I smoke) and i will see symbols with what I use to pay.
it seems once a person buys into a big idea like the illuminati...everything else is clouded...it is easier and easier to believe more and more plots are out there.
whether i am right or wrong, isn't is a worthy premise? Doesn't that make sense?

reply to post by azblack

I agree with you on most of what you say...I really do.
If I have made it sound like I think you have not thought through your ideas either...I am very sorry. I never meant to do that.
Yes, there are many things that worry me about the way the country is going...without a doubt we are heading or trying to be guided towards socialism.
Again, I can't remember the person who said it (so if that matters, I understand this doesn't count), but it was a Russian or Soviet leader who explained why socialism failed in the USSR. He said, roughly...For socialism to win in a country, it has to start out as a capitalistic one. When the people become so unhappy with striving, working, and others having more than them...they will turn to socialism.
I see the roots of that taking hold.
does that mean there are people who want socialism or have that as a sighted goal? I'm sure...but they are probably socialists.
the problem I have with the idea of the illuminati (I believed they existed for a long time) is how broad and sweeping the idea of them is. What ever happens, good or bad, they had a part in it. It can all be explained away as being part of their "plan." It is an easy way out.
I said before, I don't see if they are so vast and have total control over everything...why has it taken over 200yrs to get get to point where they are "starting" to implement their plans?
does asking that mean I don't see masonic symbols in places? No. All I have to do is go by a lighter (yes, I smoke) and i will see symbols with what I use to pay.
it seems once a person buys into a big idea like the illuminati...everything else is clouded...it is easier and easier to believe more and more plots are out there.
whether i am right or wrong, isn't is a worthy premise? Doesn't that make sense?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

I said before, I don't see if they are so vast and have total control over everything...why has it taken over 200yrs to get get to point where they are "starting" to implement their plans?

You are mistaken in your assumptions, based on your lack of investigation. "They" do not yet have total control. That is their goal. Right now their power is increasing exponentially, but the people still have allies in things like free thought and possibly even organized secret societies who oppose the idea of a New World Order.

But every day you wake up, and look at the real news, you will find that true freedom has fewer and fewer allies. The worst part about it is our freedoms are being taken from us in the name of "protecting freedom!"

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by Shedman

 

www.debunking911.com...
www.debunking911.com...

Nice try pal, this guy debunks nothing. All he can do is dress up speculation to look like hard facts.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

I said before, I don't see if they are so vast and have total control over everything...why has it taken over 200yrs to get get to point where they are "starting" to implement their plans?

You are mistaken in your assumptions, based on your lack of investigation. "They" do not yet have total control. That is their goal. Right now their power is increasing exponentially, but the people still have allies in things like free thought and possibly even organized secret societies who oppose the idea of a New World Order.

But every day you wake up, and look at the real news, you will find that true freedom has fewer and fewer allies. The worst part about it is our freedoms are being taken from us in the name of "protecting freedom!"

Again, you brought up a point i made earlier. Since you and I don't see things the same way...I am not informed. That's not fair.
Investigation? Where is a true, unbiased, and honest investigation? every investigation that is out there, starts with the purpose of proving theNWO exists.
I can't prove it doesn't exist...is that evidence it does?
And who is a good authority? YouTube? Alex Jones? How can anyone take him seriously? Because he has some grainy pictures of a place he says is Bohemian Grove? Can you even see a single face?
He does a diservice to those who truly believe what he spouts.
I do not disagree that rights are slipping away...they are.
I don't know that it is fair to think they are ALL done with bad aims. People make mistakes. Well-intentioned or short sighted solutions can end very badly. it doesn't change the problem, I know, but does make a difference when it comes to the end goals.
Maybe you aren't saying their is an aim to take away rights...maybe I am misunderstanding you.