The government lied to us...and they should have, page 9
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reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 09:32 PM by NovusOrdoMundi
Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
“you people,” as you referred to me, wouldn’t believe what they said, no matter what it is!


And my main point was, when they start telling the truth, then it will be believed as such.

We aren't going to believe the bull# they spout simply because we're afraid of being labeled conspiracy theorists like you are.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
You seem to think, one day you will wake up and there will be an overlord in the White House with a chorus of cheering masons around him.


Yay! Another generalization! Let's all assume every conspiracy theorist thinks Freemasons are involved in everything!

For the record, I don't think the Freemasons are anything more than a group of guys with a secret handshake. I don't think they're evil.

So if you're done with the stereotypes, we can continue.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Maybe you have watched enough “documentaries” on the internet to believe that…if so, I feel very sorry for you.


More generalizations

Yes, every conspiracy theorist gets their information from documentaries.

Why don't you just say Alex Jones documentaries and be done? Either that or Loose Change. I know that's what you're thinking.

So, again, for the record, I don't listen to either of those. I think Alex Jones is a fraud, and I think Loose Change has a lot of holes.

Man, I'm just knocking down all of your generalizations down one by one, aren't I? Is it troubling to see that every conspiracy theorist doesn't fit your pre-determined description of them?

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
I am not a flat out fan of the government, but I am a flat out fan of the US.


Good.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
It is the “in” thing now to think the US is this evil power set on destroying the freedoms of everyone.


WITH GOOD REASON!

What people like you DON'T get is that WE (conspiracy theorists) do not just sit around thinking this # up. IT IS INSPIRED BY SOMETHING OR COMES FROM SOMEWHERE!

I admit, a lot of people do carry it further than the truth. But there is at least a little truth in most of these "theories". Stop assuming all of them are false!

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
If you look through WORLD HISTORY you will see it is just the opposite


Put down your fake history textbook from the 6th grade and learn the real history.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
you really believe aliens are working with the government?


Jesus, dude. Now you're twisting my words? It's that desperate for you?

I said don't think that every conspiracy theorist believes in those things.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
How many conspiracy theories do you actually believe in? And none of them are a contradiction to the other? I’m sure they all fit right into place…somehow.


You believe in one. You believe Al Qaeda attacked us on 9/11. Conspiracy theory.


Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Like I said before (again), it would take tons (many tons) of explosives to bring the towers down. Yet no one saw? The people in the building thought dynamite was normal? Were they in on it too? Was that their role in the “plot.” They were to be crushed and burned alive?


Great analysis! Good job!

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
everyone is out to get you.


Did I say that?

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
How is that open thinking?


Right. Because remaining in your safe bubble dream world where your government loves you and denying anything that contradicts that is open thinking.

Good one.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 09:38 PM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


Since you and I don't see things the same way...I am not informed. That's not fair.


If you had investigated, you would know that the architects of the NWO are not yet in total control. Instead you choose to argue your point making sweeping generalizations that have no basis in fact. Hence, you are not informed.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 09:48 PM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_



Johnny, you still have not answered my question. Do you think the government lied to us about 9/11?

I am not talking about failing to fill in the missing pieces to the puzzle. Did anyone in the government investigation of 9/11 LIE?


[edit on 2/13/0808 by jackinthebox]


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 10:37 PM by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


I guess you don’t understand what I am saying. When truth is spoken, it isn’t believed. Whatever they say, it will never be the truth. If everything is done in the open, then people will assume there has to be more going on behind closed doors. The Conspiracy Theory lives on…
Did I say ALL conspiracy theories were ALL false? Wait a second….I’m looking over what I wrote….nope, I don’t think I said that one.
The theories …“they come from somewhere…” okay, where? They come from the John Q Public drinking coffee at the table with his 2.5 kids and second wife? All of the sudden his life changes because he had this insightful perspective? No, they come from people who have an agenda. They set out to prove it…can’t you see how that may sway their views a little?
Again, I may be misunderstanding you, but you make it sound as though you came up with the idea all by yourself and no one told you anything. One night while you up late memorizing a speech of Voltaire, you just sat up and said, “You know what really happened…”
I keep hearing about freedoms lost…what freedoms have you lost…how has your life changed? I’m not talking about what could be, I am talking about how has it your life been effected. Now that is an honest question. I would like to know. My life hasn’t change too much. I asked it to someone a few pages back and there was nothing…maybe you can help me out.
You are the one who brought up aliens…you said it not me.
I don’t believe there were thousands of people behind 9-11. Because that is what it would take…every floor was wired right? I guess the they tipped the night cleaning man to place them on his lunch break and not say anything?
If believing that al-qaeda did it makes me a conspiracy theorist….I guess I am one.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 10:40 PM by _Johnny_Utah_
Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


Johnny, you still have not answered my question. Do you think the government lied to us about 9/11?

I am not talking about failing to fill in the missing pieces to the puzzle. Did anyone in the government investigation of 9/11 LIE?


[edit on 2/13/0808 by jackinthebox]


I'm sure at some point somewhere for whatever reason...someone lied. Maybe it was to say they saw something they didn't or were standing here when they were actually there.
What are you getting at?


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 10:47 PM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I'm sure at some point somewhere for whatever reason...someone lied. Maybe it was to say they saw something they didn't or were standing here when they were actually there.


I'm "getting at" proving that the we are being lied to about 9/11. And I am not talking about small details here. Do you think that is acceptable? Especially considering that 3,000 Americans died, a million Iraqis have been killed, and the Patriot Act has replaced the Constitution along with checks-and-balances. (In case you missed it, we DO NOT live in a Democracy as you have so explicitly pointed out. We now live in a dictatorship.)


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 11:12 PM by _Johnny_Utah_
Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I'm sure at some point somewhere for whatever reason...someone lied. Maybe it was to say they saw something they didn't or were standing here when they were actually there.


I'm "getting at" proving that the we are being lied to about 9/11. And I am not talking about small details here. Do you think that is acceptable? Especially considering that 3,000 Americans died, a million Iraqis have been killed, and the Patriot Act has replaced the Constitution along with checks-and-balances. (In case you missed it, we DO NOT live in a Democracy as you have so explicitly pointed out. We now live in a dictatorship.)

i see your point and it is valid.
The difference is in how you and I see the events that took place. I don't believe the their was an element in the government that wanted this to take place and you do. At the core, I think that's pretty close.
Did areas of the government benefit from it? Without question.
But to say the Patriot Act replaced the Constitution go a bit far? I don't think judges are ruling on issues based on the Patriot Act (no, I am not a big fan of the Patriot act either).
If by dictatorship you are meaning executive orders, they were around long before there was a Patriot Act.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 11:12 PM by _Johnny_Utah_
Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I'm sure at some point somewhere for whatever reason...someone lied. Maybe it was to say they saw something they didn't or were standing here when they were actually there.


I'm "getting at" proving that the we are being lied to about 9/11. And I am not talking about small details here. Do you think that is acceptable? Especially considering that 3,000 Americans died, a million Iraqis have been killed, and the Patriot Act has replaced the Constitution along with checks-and-balances. (In case you missed it, we DO NOT live in a Democracy as you have so explicitly pointed out. We now live in a dictatorship.)

i see your point and it is valid.
The difference is in how you and I see the events that took place. I don't believe the their was an element in the government that wanted this to take place and you do. At the core, I think that's pretty close.
Did areas of the government benefit from it? Without question.
But to say the Patriot Act replaced the Constitution go a bit far? I don't think judges are ruling on issues based on the Patriot Act (no, I am not a big fan of the Patriot act either).
If by dictatorship you are meaning executive orders, they were around long before there was a Patriot Act.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 11:24 PM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


No, they come from people who have an agenda. They set out to prove it…can’t you see how that may sway their views a little?


No, they come from people who do a little independent research, then cohesively present the data they have uncovered which was overlooked or outright lied about by the government and the MSM. I have come up with several theories on my own that no one has ever spoken about before. And I'm sure many more well-supported theories have originated right here on ATS as well.

I think you are arrogantly and ignorantly ignoring the fact that many ATS members are not just sitting in front of their computers twenty-hours a day wrapped in tin foil. There are scientists, police officers, engineers, aviators, all sorts of people who have valid credentials in the real world.


I keep hearing about freedoms lost…what freedoms have you lost…how has your life changed?


Try this one on for size. I used to go to Manhattan every year to go Christmas shopping and to see the tree in Rockefeller Center. (I know, ironic that a CT would be caught dead in a place named Rockefeller right.) I was carrying a few shopping bags and a backpack, when my girlfriend and I went to get on the subway. Two cops insisted on checking our bags. I eneded up being pushed up against a wall when I protested, because my girlfriend's very expensive Christmas gift was in my backpack. Well, long story short, the cops ruined our Christmas by taking everything out of our bags for eachother to see.

I also have a friend who is in real-estate down in the city. He was getting on the subway with a client. A cop demanded to look through my friend's belongings. Imagine how embarrased he was in front of a female client when the cop pulled out a porno-mag.

So don't sit there and try to argue that no ones lives are being affected from losing our rights. These are only two examples. Try to think about the more important things too, that are bigger than one person.


I don’t believe there were thousands of people behind 9-11. Because that is what it would take…every floor was wired right? I guess the they tipped the night cleaning man to place them on his lunch break and not say anything?


More sweeping generalizations to reveal your logical fallacy. If you had bothered to do any research instead of spewing vomitous propoganda, you would see that it would NOT take thousands of people to pull off 9/11. Furthermore, you must not have no understanding of engineering either. If you did, you would at least have some basic concept of what it would take to set demolition charges in a building, and to destroy it. Furthermore, you obviosly have zero understanding of how to carry out a clandestine demolition operation if you think that "tipping the night cleaning man" is how to get the job done.


reply posted on 13-2-2008 @ 11:43 PM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I don't believe the their was an element in the government that wanted this to take place and you do.


Well, why the cover-up? A cover-up that could only be carried out through a conspiracy of those who know the truth, or at least compartmentalised portions of the truth.


Did areas of the government benefit from it? Without question.


The real winners were the mega-corporations who have profited immensely, and who control the government. The government as a whole benefited by invalidating most of the rights we hold dear as Americans, granting them nearly absolute power over the people to plunder all that is valuable. But again, the government is not the real winner here. The big-money families are. The government benefits from not being raped the way the people are, and get a little taste of the pie.


But to say the Patriot Act replaced the Constitution go a bit far? I don't think judges are ruling on issues based on the Patriot Act


I'll bet you didn't even know that the Constitution has been suspended since 1933 by Executive Order of FDR and approved by Congress. It has never been reinstated. Now we have the Patriot Act which is the outline for a new American government. A dictatorship. Led by a President who is no longer burdened by a system of checks and balances. Executive Order has become the whole of the law. I suggest you read the Patriot Act in detail if you do not grasp the full implications of what is written in it.

Judges most certainly are ruling based on the Patriot Act. Did you know that the first person charged under Patriot Act was a black L.A. gangbanger? I do have to agree, that the beast has not yet revealed itself in the light of day so to speak. Bush has gained the power, but I belive it will be a successor who uses these powers, all according to plan.

Keep in mind that the Enabling Act in Nazi Germany was hailed by the German people as salvation.

You might want to read up on the rise of the Nazis and Adolf Hitler to see where these some of these conspiracy theories come from.






[edit on 2/13/0808 by jackinthebox]


reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 12:00 AM by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by jackinthebox

I guess sarcasm is lost on some people…
So, if I get the right, a study group that didn’t believe what was said… was independent? They said government was lying, yet remained unbiased? Wow, that’s a neat trick. Must be a play out of Al Gore’s Global Warming Handbook.
That is terrible that happened to you with the cops. But you think they did it just because they could? They saw you and said, “Hey, let’s go rough him up!” In Japan, Europe, and all over, subways have been targeted as prime sites for attacks. We were immune (or thought we were) to most of that for a very long time… we aren’t.
Flying on a plane you have no problem (I assume) with having people check your bags. Why? Because you (assuming again) understand it is for safety.
I flew a couple months ago and had to have my bags scanned two times, then they opened them to see what was in them. It was a pain, but I understood why. Had I objected…I would have had a problem too.
How does a subway differ? It is just as good a target as anything? Maybe you have become accustomed to using the subway and it is second nature to you, so when extra security measures are taken it really stands out. Does that mean the measures are wrong?

I am engineer? No, are you?
Did you look at the link from Purdue. It shows the fall of the towers had more to do with the way they were built than anything else.
How many people did it take then to wire every floor? And why, if the idea was to bring the towers down and they didn’t care who or how many died, was it so controlled…why would they care where it fell?



reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 12:19 AM by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by jackinthebox


Do not speak of Germany and WWII by taking bits and pieces that fit. Do you understand the sentiment in Germany at the time. They were still bitter and embarrassed from WWI. They wanted to be an empire…and almost were in WWII if not for the US.
How ironic is it that people say the government uses scare tactics, yet you compare things to Nazi germany.
The Constitution has been suspended since 1993? Then how did the Truman Order get overturned by the courts in 1996?


reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 12:50 AM by NovusOrdoMundi
Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
When truth is spoken, it isn’t believed.


Give me an example. When did they speak the truth and it wasn't believed.

After you give me that, I want a full analysis, from you, on how it IS the truth, and how it WASN'T believed.

How it wasn't believed would be opinion polls, statements, things of this nature.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
If everything is done in the open, then people will assume there has to be more going on behind closed doors.


You really think they tell us everything and nothing happens "behind closed doors"?

Your whole thread is about cover ups not being a bad thing, yet you're implying nothing happens behind closed doors.

Which is it?

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Did I say ALL conspiracy theories were ALL false?


Which aren't?

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Again, I may be misunderstanding you, but you make it sound as though you came up with the idea all by yourself and no one told you anything.


Neither. No one told me anything, and I didn't come up with the idea on my own.

I hear about a theory. I gather both sides of the story through different means. And then I form my opinion based on what I've found. And I'm not too thick headed to change that opinion when new evidence or information becomes available.

I go to biased sites as well as places like news sites who give the story. Rather than just paying attention to the point of the story, I look for information which has been confirmed as the truth.

That's my way of gathering all of the information. No one tells me what to believe.

I don't believe one thing and follow the trend of being obligated to believe another. Such as, simply because I believe in 9/11 being an inside job doesn't mean I subscribe to every theory out there.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
I keep hearing about freedoms lost…what freedoms have you lost…how has your life changed?


Do you truly think they would just come right out, randomly, and announce all our freedoms are gone?

Or do you think it would be much more intelligent to pass bills which set our freedoms up to be vulnerable in the event of some catastrophic event, such as an attack?

The latter has happened. Your rights, my rights, everyone's rights are vulnerable, and all it will take is one more major event.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
You are the one who brought up aliens…you said it not me.


I was making a point. People like you have this pre-conceived notion that every conspiracy theorist believes in aliens, every conspiracy theorist believes in mind control, every conspiracy theorist believes in reptilians.

You can't wrap your mind around any conspiracy theorist being capable of logical thinking and factual discussion and debate on a topic, and being able to provide data and historical evidence to back it up.

This is what makes you a pointless candidate to have an intelligent discussion with. You've already made up your mind about your opponent, and nothing will sway that.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
I don’t believe there were thousands of people behind 9-11.


That always kills me.

People like you say "it couldn't have been a government conspiracy..it would take thousands of people to pull that off!!!", then you turn right around and say "19 guys took down those buildings and hit the Pentagon!!!" only to further say "GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! WOOO!"

So, let me get this straight: The "greatest" and most technologically advanced country in the world can't manage an attack the scale of 9/11 without at least 2,000 people being involved, but some Arabs from "some caves in a dirt poor third world country", as people like you put it, managed to do it with 19, and possibly a few more planners on the side?

USA = 2,000 +
Al Qaeda = 25-30

Is that right?

Who is the Superpower?

Al Qaeda can manage it, but we can't?

This is what I'm talking about with the contradictions. You people just go with the flow and make up # as you go along. What ever is the opposite of what your opponent is saying, you're going to say it without thought, without logic, and without any worry that it COMPLETELY contradicts EVERYTHING you've said in the past and will say in the future, and without worry that it makes you look like a total jackass.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
I guess the they tipped the night cleaning man to place them on his lunch break and not say anything?


Please look up the maintenance that was done in the weeks prior to 9/11.

Thanks.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
If believing that al-qaeda did it makes me a conspiracy theorist….I guess I am one.


"LOL U BELIVE IN ALIENS NOW LOL ND MIND CONTROL ND REPTIL MAN ND DA GOVRMINT IS OUT 2 GET U LOL!"

That's about the level of intelligence that we receive from you guys.

Unfortunately for you, your conspiracy theory doesn't have physics on it's side.

I guess physics can be labeled a terro...I mean...an "enemy combatant"..and thrown in a concentra...I mean...a "detention camp"...to be tortur...I mean..."questioned".

America. Land of the free!

On another note, it's quite amazing that those four words, "Land of the Free", and some cheap fairy tale middle school history text books duped a whole nation, generation after generation, in to willfully and ignorantly accepting the garbage propaganda spouted through the lying teeth of the criminal bastards we call our "democratically elected officials".

Just goes to show you what wonders pop culture, the educational system, and chemical ingredients in consumable products can do for any want-to-be dictator of the "free world".



[edit on 2/14/08 by NovusOrdoMundi]


reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 12:57 AM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


So, if I get the right, a study group that didn’t believe what was said… was independent? They said government was lying, yet remained unbiased? Wow, that’s a neat trick. Must be a play out of Al Gore’s Global Warming Handbook.


And here you go with the snarky comments again, that reveal your true nature. This has nothing to do with Al Gore, but since you brought it up, go ahead and prove anything one way or the other about global warming. If you cannot, then you are ignorant to even bring it up.

An independent study might actually confirm the government story, but without an actual investigation, we will never know. That is why people like myself have decided to find the facts on our own. And those fact do not support the government story. Therefore, the official story has been disproven and is actually less credible than many conspiracy theories on the subject.

I do not understand how you equate fact finding with bias. The facts stand independently of any bias or agenda.


But you think they did it just because they could?


Yes. I didn't see them stop anyone else. Furthermore, I am not afraid of terrorists so don't go shredding up the Constitution on my account. You have a better chance of getting hit by lightning than of dieing in a terrorist attack.

So let me get this straight, you support warrantless search and seizure?


Flying on a plane you have no problem (I assume) with having people check your bags. Why? Because you (assuming again) understand it is for safety.


I don't fly commercially. And they don't check your bags for bombs, but any sort of materials that may cause an accident. An airplane is a far more fickle piece of machinery, with far more severe consequences in case of any abnormalities.

Taking off your shoes at the airport is plain idiotic.


How does a subway differ? It is just as good a target as anything? Maybe you have become accustomed to using the subway and it is second nature to you, so when extra security measures are taken it really stands out. Does that mean the measures are wrong?


The subway is a vital and integral mode of transportation in the city, which could not be avoided by myself on the day in question. When I tried to leave the station is the point at which I was held against the wall. My civil rights weer violated, but there are no reprecussions against the violators. People do not have to fly, nor do most people actually fly. Most people in the city rely on the subway though, and do not own a car.

And this is not about subway safety anyway. It is about illegal search and seizure. It is about the very core values of what it is to be an American. What are we bothering to protect if our core values are eliminated?


It shows the fall of the towers had more to do with the way they were built than anything else.


My opinion on the collapse of the towers is irrelevant. What IS relevant, is that what has been presented as fact by our government, is not fact at all. When the lead engineer of the investigation flat out lies, and is caught in a lie, that's a problem as far as I am concerned. I know you don't care, but the rest of us here do. I don't want my privacy made public. I don't want cops coming into my house in the middle of the night. If you like being anally probed to make sure you didn't stuff a bomb up your @$$ that's your business, but I ain't havin' that Johnny.


How many people did it take then to wire every floor? And why, if the idea was to bring the towers down and they didn’t care who or how many died, was it so controlled…why would they care where it fell?


Again, the facts are irrelevant to this discussion. It does not matter how many people it took to wire the building. We are talking about the right and the motivations to find out if there was a CD, and how it was done if so. If you really want to know, go do your own research.

They would care where it fell, because they were protecting property they did not want destroyed. It had nothing to do with saving lives. Again, if you bothered to investigate, you would know that.






[edit on 2/14/0808 by jackinthebox]


reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 01:12 AM by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


Do not speak of Germany and WWII by taking bits and pieces that fit. Do you understand the sentiment in Germany at the time. They were still bitter and embarrassed from WWI. They wanted to be an empire…and almost were in WWII if not for the US.


Do not speak to me about what you think you know about WWII or Germany, because you have no idea who you are talking to. I have intimate knowledge on the subject that goes far beyond anything you will ever understand.


How ironic is it that people say the government uses scare tactics, yet you compare things to Nazi germany.


I see no irony. My comparison is more valid than what little you obvioulsy know.


The Constitution has been suspended since 1993?


No, 1933.


reply posted on 14-2-2008 @ 01:24 AM by jackinthebox
reply to post by Justin_Case



Is it possible that some people want to interpret the 9-11 "stuff" in just such a way that it lines up with their favorite theory?


Anything is possible. But I find more often that it is the people who try to support the weak government version that are the ones who are unwilling to accept evidence when it is presented, and to change their opinions accordingly.

Most CT's will stick by a theory to simply have it dis-proven, so that they can go on to look at other material, confident that the dead theory has no validity and will no longer clutter the investigation.
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