If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

DO NOT DISCUSS THE MEMBERS

ON TOPIC NOW

reply to post by undo

Stereotypes sucketh raw tomatoes.

Haha.. I love it. Well with Masonry it goes one way or the other.. either we are all evil devil worshiping goat #ers ... or we are ignorant zombies clueless of the actions of the elite Masons who are really the evil devil worshiping goat #ers.

I love the way Wukung said it once... we are all a little bit evil. Just a little. Some more then others, some less.

I am maybe 7.3% evil. On a good day and no beer.

Or do they teach that?

Tollerance is taught .. but Humans have a hard time following that.. While I believe strongly in tollerance on many levels, as you said how many times have you seen Masons making antireligious remarks.. I admitt, I am an avid hater of organized religions.. being both a Mason and a non-christian.. I have my own reasons.

And do you not think that if this becomes a standard amongst those who call themselves masons

I personally don't think it is a norm.. most Masons are avid Christians and follow traditional Christian beliefs.. if they don't like Jews, Catholics or Muslims .. thats usually a Christian thing, not a Mason thing. Though I should note.. that I have never heard a remark on religion at all in any way during lodge or even with my lodge.

but Humans have a hard time following that

This is my point. "Don't do as I do, do as I say" syndrome.
As a mason, would you want to have this type of treatment, every day, day in and day out for the rest of your freakin' life? No, which is why you are here with your bros, fussin' about it. Well what do YOU think this means?

This is part of the problem you are experiencing. Everyone's afraid. They are afraid because everyone else is afraid. It's a bunch o' people scared half outta their wits that the world is going to hades in a handbasket and the secret three letter (or more) orgs are part of the problem, that includes masonry.

We need resolution, not blame game. It's not getting solved, it's getting worse. What do the shepherds do? Do they blame the flocks of the guy on the next block for not behaving or do they look to their own? Typically, they are supposed mind their own sheep (Guess dad thought I was going to be his little lamb ad infinitum

[edit on 17-2-2008 by undo]

reply to post by undo


I believe your calling us hypocrits? And I will except that.. I wouldn't doubt we are.. we all are to some degree no?

But, again you cannot stereotype us all.. some are more vocal then others (like my self) And while I am talk down Christianity sometimes, many Masons are Christian as well.

Its a personal thing.

I don't think it can be solved either, if Humans set in their ways could be changed in the blink of an eye, and the hateful become tollerant, and the spiteful friendly, the worlds problems would have been fixed a long time ago.

Education and reason are our best resources..

we all are to some degree no

yep exactly. which is a really hard point to get across.
it's like, "Dad, yes, you have made mistakes." Shock!
"So have I!"
"Wow....really?"
doh.

Anyway, I believe the prevalency (is that a word?) of people blaming
masons is related to many things, blaming christians is just one of those
things. and even then, it all relates back to fear. doncha think? everyone's
afraid of the state of the world and having groups with "Secrets" is going
to accelerate the paranoia.

reply to post by undo


Well you cannot very well blame social problems on your self, can you?..

Everyone needs someone to blame. Most blame the rich, the Muslims, the Christians, the Jews.. the Jews again, Masons, and Jews again..

I blame society as a whole.

The hate for Masonry is imo, a lack of understanding of the basic principles that guide society and politics.. instead of udnerstanding these underlying principles.. its easier to say one secret group no one knows about controls everything.

That way.. when we go to war, or the markets crash, or there is a shooting.. there is no reason.. its simply because the over lords said so! Giving them almost God like qualities..

Its interesting to say the least..

Originally posted by Rockpuck
either we are all evil devil worshiping goat #ers ... or we are ignorant zombies clueless of the actions of the elite Masons who are really the evil devil worshiping goat #ers.

To be honest, nobody in here is calling Masons devil worshipping goat #ers . To even use that as a precedent for discussion is indicative of enormous bias.... nobody who really wants to discuss something would use such a preposition.

It says alot about the Masonic self-victimizing attitude that we witness in this forum, that you people so constantly exaggerate things in this manner.

Instead of allowing non-personal discussion of Masonry, you immediately jump to the victimization-mode.


"If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?"

"It's not because we say it's not. Or are we just ignorant devil worshipping goat #ers? "


How is that fair? It seems like the propositions made by supposed 'anti-masons' are positively mild compared to such exaggerations...

[edit on 17-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]

reply to post by NewWorldOver


It was an exageration border line joke my friend, I was not claiming someone said such things word for word.

Although, I have been accused of such activities during my stay on ATS.

I also recall being told I like to eat babies.. but that was becaus I am American..

i think the exact hierarchy is "Divine Council." which is supposed to be directly connected to the creation of the Illuminati, which is supposed to be directly connected to the secret frats and 3 letter orgs and various rulers not in the illuminati. this also ties in orgs like the trilateral commission, the bilderbergs (spelling?) and so forth.

we wrestle against principalities, powers, rulers of darkness of this world, in high places. (or something like that)

there's plenty of textual evidence for that hierarchy, in nearly every ancient text on the planet. kinda interesting too.

reply to post by undo


But is the elite of the world simply the elite for massive wealth, massive influence, and massive control over traditional political and economic social structures? ...

Or must they belong to a group?

Because I agree.. there is an oligarchy out there.. a ruling elite if you will.. but I just cannot come to say they are all in the same group. Just doesnt make sense to me..

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by undo

 

But is the elite of the world simply the elite for massive wealth, massive influence, and massive control over traditional political and economic social structures? ...

Or must they belong to a group?

Because I agree.. there is an oligarchy out there.. a ruling elite if you will.. but I just cannot come to say they are all in the same group. Just doesnt make sense to me..

Well, they aren't ALL in the same group. It's sorta shaped like a pyramid. The guys at the top, then the guys below them, and so forth. That's the way the entire universe is constructed, from what I can tell. The problem here (earth) is that the guys at the top are not exactly interested in the people below them for any other reason than convenience. kinda sad, actually.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by undo]

reply to post by undo



A billionair is a billionair.. they dont need to get along.. they dont need friends.. they don't need a boss.

They wouldnt except one anyways..

I know millionairs.. a few.. I have at least 2 in my family.

They are the top dogs, there is no one above them.. they have people below them, but they report to themselves.

While I believe the ultra rich do however control vast sections of the economy, society, politics.. I believe it is a anarchic frenzy and compitition.

My views anyways.

rockpuck, Our Brother RacerX is worth much more than a million. He is a kind and decent man. Works hard for the Shrine Hospital and helps anyone in need.
Yes, he often gets burned, but he shrugs it off.

To each his own. I am a Christian. To judge an organization i think u have to at least go back to its founding fathers and principles, not the modern day filtered PC version of it u have today. Catholicism for all it's so-called evil (you claim) can at least be traced back to Christ (or was he bad too?). I implore all masons to please search and read about a certain Albert Pike, esp his famous book 'dogma..'. I'm not one of those people who gets impressed by intelligent assessment of ignorance because you use fancy words. And Masonry IS discarded by the church. Masonry believes you must believe in a higher god. Anything (sun, gold, stick, Christ, etc), so long as you believe in a 'higher being'. But what's the REAL reason for this? Isn't it contrary to the Christian belief of only ONE GOD? Isn't it blasphemous? And for all the modern day masonic denials, Pike himself called freemasonry a religion. and he should know! Also, how many of you 'all knowing' super intelligent masons have heard of, or reached the 33rd degree? It's not just 1, 2 and 3 degrees you know, or weren't you told? What do you know about the ultra secretive inner workings and purposes of the elite mason caucus? I don't have all day but pls when you've done some proper research and 'enlightenment' get back to us. Not saying you are bad or have bad intentions, nut i wish i could say the same about your 'organization.'

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Masonry believes you must believe in a higher god. Anything (sun, gold, stick, Christ, etc), so long as you believe in a 'higher being'.

Ah, just registered with ATS today, I see. Your post smacks of a bit more hate than luv, there brink. But I'll play along.

No one on earth believes GOLD or a STICK for god's sake created the universe and all that is in it. That's silly.

Freemasonry requires her members to believe that there is a God. A Supreme Being (not a "Higher" one) A CREATOR and SUSTAINER of ALL. What you believe about Him is between you and him and NOT to be discussed in Lodge. Period.

But what's the REAL reason for this? Isn't it contrary to the Christian belief of only ONE GOD?

No, because I forgot to point out above that a Freemason must believe that there is ONE Almighty One. I'm afraid you've been given fictitious information regarding Freemasonry.

Oh, and for what it is worth, I'm a Christian too. Plenty of us Masons are. Some are not, though.

And for all the modern day masonic denials, Pike himself called freemasonry a religion. and he should know!

I personally like Pike (who by the way was a Christian). Pike said a lot of things that do not make sense when taken out of context. However when taken in context. . . well, some of them don't make sense anyway. Pike wrote HIS OPINIONS...nothing else. And some of his opinions were pretty good in MY opinion. Freemasonry does not claim to "save one's soul" our guarantee admission to Heaven. Hence, not a religion.

Also, how many of you 'all knowing' super intelligent masons have heard of, or reached the 33rd degree? It's not just 1, 2 and 3 degrees you know, or weren't you told?

The condescending tone of that question notwithstanding, I received the 33rd Degree in 2001.

What would you like to know? I'll be happy to help. Seriously. I believe there is another 33rd S.R. on here as well.

What do you know about the ultra secretive inner workings and purposes of the elite mason caucus? I don't have all day but pls when you've done some proper research and 'enlightenment' get back to us.

You're the one telling this story. What do YOU know about it? I myself know plenty...as do other Masons on this site. What do you know for fact?

Not saying you are bad or have bad intentions, nut i wish i could say the same about your 'organization.'

We ARE the organization. Just like the "church" is the "people" who comprise it.

Are there some bad Masons? Sure. Are there some bad church-goers? Sure? Are there bad clergy? Sure. Does that make Masonry, Church or the Clergy bad?

Of course not.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Appak]

Yes yes. Was expecting (one of) you. Firstly my registration date is irrelevant (want my ip address as well?). Secondly, i'm not not saying anything out of hatred cos believe it or not, i dont hate you. I have no personal reason to. Shall we leave out the small talk?
Now, however cleverly you've tried to camouflage it, your belief in one supreme being IS blasphemous. 'Your one supreme maker' of the universe could be God, allah, Buddah, Ra (not as colourful as sticks and gold i admit) or whoever. Not solely the Christian one and only TRUE GOD, so let's not beat around the bush. Blasphemous.
Also you say Albert Pike was a christian. Ok. Well wasn't he also one of the leaders of the KKK. A real role model. But of course you'll say i can't prove that. No more than you can prove how christianly he was.
And can you swear that he doesn't pronounce masonry a religion in his book? When are you guys gonna stop disregarding his texts you find inconvenient and embracing the rest of his dogma? And like i said earlier he should know more than you since he wrote most of the guidelines and doctrines that you should follow. He will surely forever be more relevant to that movement than you can ever dream to be, admit it or not(nothing personal, honest).
And ok i'm ignorant. Care to enlighten on the true origins and original purposes of free masonry and its founding fathers, principles and texts we can read.
Remember i started by saying 'to each his own'. Hopefully we both just want a better world, whatever our definition of that is. Have a good day my friend.

Originally posted by brinkofluv

Now, however cleverly you've tried to camouflage it, your belief in one supreme being IS blasphemous.

Your opinions on blasphemy are sort of irrelevant. I'm sure that you believe things that others would consider blasphemous.

Also you say Albert Pike was a christian. Ok. Well wasn't he also one of the leaders of the KKK.

No, he wasn't. There are no Klan documents ever listing him as a member, Pike never claimed to be a member, and Nathan Bedford Forrest (who founded the Klan) does not mention Pike in his memoires, although he talks about all the Klan leaders.

And can you swear that he doesn't pronounce masonry a religion in his book? When are you guys gonna stop disregarding his texts you find inconvenient and embracing the rest of his dogma?

You have apparently never read it. Pike says:

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma" p. 161

And like i said earlier he should know more than you since he wrote most of the guidelines and doctrines that you should follow.

Wrong. They were around long before Pike. What Pike did was revise the rituals for the Scottish Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, and wrote a few interesting books about them.

He will surely forever be more relevant to that movement than you can ever dream to be, admit it or not(nothing personal, honest).

Why would you say that? You don't know Appak; perhaps he is a Grand Master, or Deputy Grand Master, or District Deputy. Pike was never any of those things.




[edit on 18-2-2008 by Masonic Light]

reply to post by Masonic Light


Thanks ML!

I foresee a bit of the same "stuff" that we've had here numerous times in the past.

brinkofluv requested to "leave out the small talk" I think I'll just leave out the talk altogether. It's easy to see where this thread is going, huh? Probably be a short-lived thread.

It is of interest to note though that he/she dropped the nonsense about the 33rd Degree like the proverbial "hot rock" ...I guess it became difficult to throw in the old "you aren't one so you don't know the real secrets!" Too bad. I was ready for that.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


Your opinions on blasphemy are sort of irrelevant. I'm sure that you believe things that others would consider blasphemous.

No they are not. It just shows how some of your claims that you (some of) are christians and how masonry is not opposed to christianity is wrong. At least it may not be to you but trust me it is. Christianity leaves no room for ''...what others would consider blasphemous...''

Originally posted by Masonic LightWrong. They were around long before Pike. What Pike did was revise the rituals for the Scottish Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, and wrote a few interesting books about them.

i believe he was a sovereign grand commander. I never said he founded the masons. But to deny some of his influence and contributions to masonry would be, well, unfair, putting it lightly.

Originally posted by Masonic LightWhy would you say that? You don't know Appak; perhaps he is a Grand Master, or Deputy Grand Master, or District Deputy. Pike was never any of those things.

See above
If i could be bothered, i would search out some of his quotes where he states contrary to you. One of particular note is where he talks about 'ignorant people who join and only deserve to be deceived and 'truth' and real meaning of masonry hidden from them' (not a nice thing to say about your own members btw). But i can't be. To each his own. It's certainly not my position to judge you, nor you me. Proof of this, proof of that? Will we ever have real proof? We can only have faith. You believe what you want and i'll do mine. I hope i haven't come across as rude cos i have diff. views. That would be immature. To each his own. Have a good day.

Originally posted by Appak
reply to post by Masonic Light

 

Thanks ML!

I foresee a bit of the same "stuff" that we've had here numerous times in the past.

brinkofluv requested to "leave out the small talk" I think I'll just leave out the talk altogether. It's easy to see where this thread is going, huh? Probably be a short-lived thread.

It is of interest to note though that he/she dropped the nonsense about the 33rd Degree like the proverbial "hot rock" ...I guess it became difficult to throw in the old "you aren't one so you don't know the real secrets!" Too bad. I was ready for that.

Feel free to say to me whatever you want. This is not a quarrel. Though from your posts you seem a bit confrontational. Out of curiosity strictly (no pawn iintended) i'd like to know if you know all the secrets of freemasonry. Also all about its origins and original purpose of its creation (not saying there's anything untoward).