If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

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posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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I see post from masons explaining all the good and upstanding things masons do, and how harmless masons are. If they are so " good " can someone please explain the following to me.

How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings, just to do blood drives and give to charities? I know that they do rituals and have meetings, but the local lodge here is as grand as the surpreme court building. Why the need for such costly huge buildings?

Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church? Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?

Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization? And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears. Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.

I have never seen these questions answered my the masons yet. I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that? They say they believe in God.

Can I get an answer to these questions from a true mason? Or will I get the same old reply. "Well we do blood drives, and give to needy, and our rituals are not anything but acting."




posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter I have never seen these questions answered my the masons yet.


May I strongly suggest that you make use of the wonderful search function located near the top right corner of your screen here on ATS? I'm pretty sure you'll find all your questions patiently answered previously many, many times over the years.

HTH
Fitz



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 11:50 AM
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May I ask you in return why the churches on every street corner is more extravagant and grand than any lodge I've every seen?

Where does that money come from and does it sit well with you that the money used to build them is tax exempt.

Walk into any church and there is more gold and silver and art work that could help pay off a small world country debt.

Do you think the church takes kindly to nay sayer who oppose them?

Brush up on your history and come back with what you learned.

Thanks
Cory



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 12:03 PM
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These are the replies I exspected to get. Answering my questions without answering them. typical and classic replies.

One tells me to search out the answers on this forum, which will be a redirection of answers and question, without straight answers.

Another gives me a question without answering my questions, first. Then tells me to do my research on history, when in fact I have that is why I am asking the questions.

They are only simple questions. What is the problem.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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Preemptive post. Might be a good time to put this back up here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I see post from masons explaining all the good and upstanding things masons do, and how harmless masons are. If they are so " good " can someone please explain the following to me.

How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings, just to do blood drives and give to charities? I know that they do rituals and have meetings, but the local lodge here is as grand as the surpreme court building. Why the need for such costly huge buildings?


I think that you will find that masonic buildings have really toned it down in modern times. There are a lot of really beautiful masonic buildings around, but then again there are a lot of elaborate libraries, museums and churches from the same time period.

My lodge was built in the late 70's and is pretty plain jane.



Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church? Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?


A lot of groups are excommunicated by the church. This occurred many years ago. The 'church' is not necessarily the authority on everything good. Take a look at the inquisition and the crusades.

Hitler was a bad man and wanted to destroy anyone that didn't buy into his crap. He believed the freemasons and the Jews were trying to take over the world.

From the US Holocaust Museum:

"All governments gather information about their citizens. The Nazi regime, however, used such information to track political opponents, enforce racial policies, and, ultimately, implement mass murder. As early as 1934, various government bureaus began to compile card catalogs identifying political and racial enemies of the regime, such as Freemasons, Jews, Gypsies, and ‘genetically diseased’ persons."




Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization? And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears. Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.


You can find all of freemasonry's 'secrets' online. There are literally thousands of web pages detailing rituals, handshakes, passwords.

The only secret in freemasonry is how it makes you feel inside from doing good for society.




I have never seen these questions answered my the masons yet. I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that? They say they believe in God.



Freemasonry uses symbols and designs as illustrations of moral lessons. For example, the square and compass are used to remind us that we should be 'square' in dealing with others and that we should 'circumscribe' our actions so that we don't step outside the circle of good behavior.

Believing in a Supreme Being is required for a Mason. The reasoning is simple. If you didn't believe in a power higher than yourself, then there would be no motivation for taking care of your fellow human beings.





Can I get an answer to these questions from a true mason? Or will I get the same old reply. "Well we do blood drives, and give to needy, and our rituals are not anything but acting."


These questions have all been answered over and over on this site and others. Any freemason here would be happy to answer any question you have.

The truth is that all the facts about freemasonry are available for anyone to see. Masons give more than one million dollars a DAY to charity.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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I did a LOT of research before joining. I am sure this site has been posted before, but I think it does a better job of answering questions than any other:

Masonic Info

There are a LOT of anti-masonry sites out there as well:

Freemasonry Watch

Read both sides and make up your own mind.

The thing that decided it for me was the fact that masons don't recruit. To be a mason you have to seek it out for yourself and ask to join. What possible agenda could an organization have if all of the members joined freely and willingly?

Why do more than 95% of people who join masonry stay? Anyone who joins is free to leave at any time for any reason. Surely there must be something positive going on here.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church? Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?



All of that alone is enough to convince me that Masons are not "evil."
What better evidence is there that the Masons are the good guys? All of the evil people are against them.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
They are only simple questions. What is the problem.


The problem is the inherent feeding-frenzy that is likely to take place because of this thread. (Not your fault, I assure you) Much has been happening on this part of ATS lately regarding Freemasonry, anti-Masonry, etc. It has prompted one of the moderators, supermoderators (what ever that is) or perhaps the list owner to post a huge (grammatically incorrect...which drives me crazy
) statement in blue text across the forum's main page ("Due to a history of . . . " etc). What's been going on here has caused several "warnings" and as Intrepid pointed out, a post from Bill indicating that some individuals who do not behave properly will be banned from posting. It's easy to bet a bit zealous over one's organization and post things based on emotion. Believe me, I've experienced it.

You have some legitimate questions, but again, as pointed out, these things have been addressed on this board time and time again...and in the end, this is a conspiracy forum, not a Freemasonry forum.

If you're truly interested in up-front, honest answers, I will be glad to answer them for you (as, I'm sure would several Masons on this site).

However, your initial post and reply, including the "what is the problem?" portion have the appearance of baiting. I'm sorry if that's not your intent, but if you will read some of the archives of ATS you'll soon see what I mean.

All that being said, if you're truly interested, I'll be more than happy to send you a U2U with my e-mail address and will answer any question you have. That offer stands for anyone truly interested in learning about Freemasonry from a very active, long-time and as my userid says "notorious" Freemason.


Regards,

[edit to correct my own grammar...heck, we all make mistakes
]

[edit on 10-2-2008 by senrak]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
Preemptive post. Might be a good time to put this back up here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I swear I'm trying to subdue my passions- I really am!!

I even stayed away for a week or so to make sure I didn't speak from anger.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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Freemasonry Secret?
If it is so secret how come those that question their so called secrecy know alot about what they do. If one knows, doesnt that not make it no longer a secret?

[edit on 10-2-2008 by fastwalker23]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by fastwalker23
Freemasonry Secret?
If it is so secret how come those that question their so called secrecy know alot about what they do. If one knows, doesnt that not make it no longer a secret?

[edit on 10-2-2008 by fastwalker23]


This is so true.

You don't even have to try hard to find out everything there is to know about freemasonry. Heck, the National Geographic Channel and the History Channel have documentaries all the time that show the actual ceremonies.

It actually makes a lot of sense that that secrets were guarded so tightly in the past. A lot of historical events, like the Boston Tea Party, may have been organized or discussed in lodges and the ability to identify members was paramount for security.

Nowadays the only benefit to be gained by trying to learn the 'secrets' is that you want to sneak into a meeting. The risks outweigh the benefits, though. If you managed to make it past the Tyler, you might find yourself getting assigned kitchen duty for the next pancake breakfast!



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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Masons have grand buildings, when they do, because the membership found something of value there and wished to attempt to preserve it for future generations. One way of doing this, recognized from at least the Classical era, is to preserve the teachings and the structure of the organization in a building. For a fraternity which takes much of its symbolism from architecture and building, it would seem natural.

While, I have no idea how Freemasons actually feel about having been persecuted by Hitler. Frankly, I would take it as a point of pride. I suspect that Freemasonry is persecuted often whenever a government or a religion believes that no activity of its subjects should be shielded from pubic scruitiny. Political tyranny begets intellectual tyranny.

Masons don't point to all the good they do as a defense. They simply, like Jesus, ask that you judge the tree by its fruits. Masons don't need to defend themselves at all. The charges that get leveled against them are, almost without exception, silly.

I have met many Freemasons. They have been, for the most part, intelligent, generous, and kind men who had difficullty properly organizing a potluck dinner. To attitribute to them some international conspiracy is... laughable.

I am not a Mason. I do, however, probably know more about Masonic history than most -- because I'm an avid reader and am lucky enough to have the luxury to indulge my desire to read on this topic.

Now. Answer me this. Why do churches build such huge structures when Jesus said, "Go, sell all that you own, give the proceeds to the poor, and come and follow me."? Why do churches build such awesome buildings just to host blood drives and conduct private meetings? Why do they need such large, imposing buildings when Jesus said, "Wheresoever three or more are gathered in my name, there also am I."? Ahah! I have it! The international Christian conspiracy to keep the building trades fully employed! Deny it if you can.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by driley]

[edit on 10-2-2008 by driley]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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Dear God- I love this man!!!

That is what I wanted to say but couldn't



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by drileyNow. Answer me this. Why do churches build such huge structures when Jesus said, "Go, sell all that you own, give the proceeds to the poor, and come and follow me."? Why do churches build such awesome buildings just to host blood drives and conduct private meetings? Why do they need such large, imposing buildings when Jesus said, "Wheresoever three or more are gathered in my name, there also am I."?


Why? Because ego is ingrained in mankind and expecting a complete sea change like that is to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff over time. Some are able to achieve it; most not though.

Temporal success is the most insidious tool of the Devil. No matter what we devote our lifetimes to, success in our days is the surest way to undo any unselfish aspect of whatever it is we do. We're all children at heart and praise is the mother's milk of selfishness.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Why the need for such costly huge buildings?

Because standing on a street corner is generally described as loitering.

Most of the landmark Lodge buildings or Temples are from a bygone time when Masonry was more active (early in the last century and after WWII). Modern Masonry has seen a downturn in membership (mostly through loss of membership to natural causes), and many Lodges consolidated - some more than once - and therefore there are actually far fewer Lodges in the U.S. than there used to be. Some Lodges own the land and building, some just rent space.

Personally, I think Freemasonry should go the McDonalds route and own all the lands and buildings. My McDonalds stock has been pretty good to me over the years.


Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church?

They're not.

Some will argue that they were excommunicated (Can 2335: "Affiliation With Masonic or Similar Societies. Those who join a Masonic sect or other societies of the same sort, which plot against the Church or against legitimate civil authority, incur ipso facto an excommunication simply reserved to the Holy See."), and that they still are subject to excommunication ("...the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden - Quaesitum est) however, it's my opinion that Can. 1374 ("A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.") which replaces Can. 2335 is pretty clear; Masonic membership doesn't get you an excommunication anymore. Canon Law supercedes the opinion of the Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei. Even if the Cardinal who issued it eventually did become Pope. At the time the opinion was issued, Ratzinger was not infallible.

Therefore, it's my opinion as a Roman Catholic food group that Can. 1374 remains in full force and effect. As Freemasonry doesn't plot against the Church, it's members can't be excommunicated.


Why did Hitler want them exterminated?

Because Hitler was an evil person who splooged himself when he spoke in public.

in other words, he had issues.

But it goes beyond that. There was a German general - Erich Ludendorff - who founded the Aryan-German Tannenberg League, wrote angry diatribes like "The Nation At War" and "Annihilation of Freemasonry Through The Revelation of Its Secrets" (No, Ercih, tell us how you really feel about Masonry!
). He claimed that Freemasonry was a machine that cranked out 'artificial Jews.' The Nazis really liked Ludendorff's work - although they considered him (the man) a mystico-religious nutbag who was political kryptonite.

Hitler read Ludendorff's works, and he made pretty clear what he thought about Freemasonry (and the Jews) pretty clear in his book Mein Kampf ("..."The general pacifistic paralyzation of the national instinct of self-preservation, introduced into the circles of the so-called `intelligentsia' by Freemasonry, is transmitted to the great masses, but above all to the bourgeoisie, by the activity of the great press, which today is always Jewish...").

There is also the Dieter Schwarz book (put out by the Nazi propaganda printing house) "Freemasonry; It's World View; Organization and Policies" which, again, lays out why Freemasonry is bad for the Nazis: "...in contrast to the anti-racial attitude of the lodges, the Nazi attitude is race conscious ... Masonic lodges are associations of men who, closely bound together in a union employing symbolical usages, represent a supra-national spiritual movement, the idea of Humanity ... a general association of mankind, without distinction of races, peoples, religions, social and political convictions..."

I'm sure there are some members here here who will probably agree that the enemy pretty much nailed Freemasonry with that one.


Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?

...and Italy, Iran and so on...

Masons and dictators are like oil and water. They just don't mix will. Giuseppe Garibaldi, Benito Juarez, Simon Bolivar, George Washington, General Cappello, etc. Masonry is always on the hit list when a dictator, an undemocratic or totalitarian regime comes to power. Why? For the same reasons the Nazis despised them.


Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization?

Much like Jeep's motto, "It's a Masonic thing, you wouldn't understand."

But I think you're mistaken. There are certainly obligations and rituals, but - as far as I know - no blood oaths. And it's certainly not meaningless ... unless you are of the belief that your word is meaningless.


And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears. Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.

Meh. I strongly believe that you have no knowledge of the Morgan Affair outside what you may have read on an anti-Masonic site. And I say this with authority, because NO ONE knows what happened to William Morgan. There are only theories.

As far as 'how many people have disappeared at the hands of Masons' goes ... probably none. Not one. I'm reasonably certain that there has been no Masonic plot to disappear people.

That's not to say that there are no individuals who claim Masonic affiliation who invested their time as individuals in skullduggery.


I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that?

Because it's economically unfeasible for a tombstone producer to make a stone that specific; they'd just sit around unsold.

Your pal,
Meat.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
These are the replies I exspected to get. Answering my questions without answering them. typical and classic replies.


Okay, you want to know why we have large buildings within which we conduct our goings-on?
It's simple really.
Because we want them.




posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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Thank you to those who answered my questions, with patinces. My stepfather was become a freemason at the end of last year, and I do not know very much about it, except from what I have read on the internet. I know he goes to the lodge alot he says to study. I asked him what he is studying and he would not tell me.
I am very confused at all this and worried about all the secrets, and internet stuff about freemasonry. I did not want to offend anyone, just trying to know the truth. I do not want to live with someone if they are a bad person. I have never asked him about thses questions so I needed to ask someone. Thanks.



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Thank you to those who answered my questions, with patinces. My stepfather was become a freemason at the end of last year, and I do not know very much about it, except from what I have read on the internet.


Dangerous place to get information about Masonry sometimes. Here, despite all else, Masons do try to correct misinformation. Ask questions and to the best of our abilities and oaths, we'll reply with honest and forthcoming answers. There'll be some relatively minor things that we may not be so forthcoming on but those things are exceptional. Honesty will be met in kind.


Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I know he goes to the lodge alot he says to study. I asked him what he is studying and he would not tell me.


Most likely, he's not certain what he can say and what he can't. Mrs. Fitzgibbon was most aggravated when I came back from being initiated and wouldn't spill the beans on exactly what transpired. Don't take it personally. Just focus on your relationship with him. As a stepfather, I know how many things are whipping around in any relationship like that.


Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I am very confused at all this and worried about all the secrets, and internet stuff about freemasonry. I did not want to offend anyone, just trying to know the truth.


Confusion's par for the course and searching for truth is a life-long process. It's out there to be found but bear in mind that recognising it will take more judgment on your part than anything else. Don't sweat the secrets; they aren't especially important if you aren't a Mason.


Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I do not want to live with someone if they are a bad person. I have never asked him about thses questions so I needed to ask someone. Thanks.


If he wasn't a bad person before he became a Mason, it's rather unlikely that he'd become one because of it. As for the questions, ask away.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Fitzgibbon]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Thank you to those who answered my questions, with patinces. My stepfather was become a freemason at the end of last year, and I do not know very much about it, except from what I have read on the internet. I know he goes to the lodge alot he says to study. I asked him what he is studying and he would not tell me.
I am very confused at all this and worried about all the secrets, and internet stuff about freemasonry. I did not want to offend anyone, just trying to know the truth. I do not want to live with someone if they are a bad person. I have never asked him about thses questions so I needed to ask someone. Thanks.

Dude, just go to the Lodge.

Getting information second (or third ... or more) hand is the worst way to find out about anything.

Your pal,
Meat.





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