Originally posted by Rockpuck


[Freemasonry has no stance] ...so essentially taking no preference, thus no stance, or essentially nothing in particular.

... and therefore cannot be a proper medium for shining TRUE light.

Hi brinkofluv

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Hello Trinity.
I never said you serve more than one God. I agree with you that there is only one true God. I also said 'spending time' with people of different faiths is not a bad thing. I said it happens in offices, social groups and countless other gatherings. However, there is a significant difference between (a) accepting people of different faiths into your group and (b) actually insisting 'absolutely' that without those beliefs (which can be of a varied nature) one cannot join your group.

Presumably the difference you are referring to is the specific membership requirement. I'm not sure of the relevance of this, unless you believe this criterion somehow legitimizes non-Christian monotheistic religions. It does not - it has no opinion one way or the other. It is simply a natural membership selection based on the nature of the ritual.

I also said i found the totality of this rule(option b) baffling because religious beliefs (indeed for any religion) have never been a guarantee of moral and upright behavior of individuals, qualities I assume responsible organizations such as yours look for when accepting/initiating members.

This also is true, but isn't the point. A man without religious beliefs will get no value from lessons which assume the intimate and integral role of a Creator in all matters. It has nothing to do with whether religious people are more moral than non-religious people. I doubt there's any evidence one way or the other on that one.

Unfortunately also, some beliefs actually advocate wrongful and unjust practices. I remember using 'devil worship' though I have admitted that this was used for dramatic effect. Nonetheless, religions like that exist. Something masonry doesn't seem bothered about as option b seems quite ambiguous.

There are more membership criteria than just belief in a Supreme Being, the key ones I outlined in a previous posting. Someone who believed in a diabolic god really wouldn't get very far into the ceremony before he came a cropper.
There is also the additional element of each lodge being a private members club, membership of which can only be gained by a consent of the vast majority of the membership. Part of the role of an investigating committee is to ascertain whether the candidate is suitable material for freemasonry, and to make as much inquiry as they deem necessary to reach this conclusion. Someone with impure motives, for example, oughtn't to make it past even this stage. And then there's the ballot...

SIDENOTE: I find the discussion (by masonic brothers in the above thread) on the expelled wiccan (pro or against) quite interesting.

Me too. In my jurisdiction a Wiccan would be most welcome, as long as he affirmed that he believed in a Supreme Being.

Let me point out one of these teachings of Christ: That there is 'only one God, Father of Christ and no one cometh to the Father but through Him (Christ) and Him alone'. Apparently, freemasonry (not individuals) not only 'ignores' this rule when accepting its members, but as a matter of principle flouts it.

This is an excellent quote, and part of the true basis of my faith. However, freemasonry is areligious, it makes no judgments in such matters and makes no attempt to influence members towards one religion or another. It is not the function of freemasonry to get involved in any way with such matters.

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Again it was a mason who said(not me) that masonic laws are based on Christian teachings. I believe he also went as far as to say 'exclusively'.

I believe that was me. The morality taught within freemasonry is the morality of the Holy Bible. I wouldn't say it's exclusively biblical though, as many other religions teach the same stuff. But freemasonry specifically is based on a Biblical source - a casual read of any ritual would soon reveal that.

Laws are something different, the only masonic laws that exist are to do with the management and administration of the Craft. Freemasonry is not dogmatic in that sense.

Maybe masonry is really really flexible. I don't know. Would I be allowed (going by your logic of course) to say freemasonry stands for nothing exactly then??

Yes, freemasonry is really flexible. It is a framework in which the individual can develop in their own direction.

Having read your posts, brinkofluv, I imagine the lack of specific spiritual direction by freemasonry concerns you. I believe you feel a potential spiritual complacency within freemasonry, knowingly allowing people to tread the wrong path and failing to act. If you feel this way I am sorry, but to think this way would be IMO to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of freemasonry. It allows people who would otherwise be "at a perpetual distance" to meet and enjoy fellowship without the burdensome divisiveness of politics or religion*. Its amazing what you can learn about someone when you actually talk to them.

(* in Alabama the prohibition is extended to Football too )

Originally posted by Rockpuck



Why do that? that is childish. Can one not read the passages of the Bible and respect its beauty, its meaning, its wisdom and its history.. yet not subscribe to the Dogma that dictates an individuals submission to one faith?

Except, the Bible is not 'people magazine'. It's also more than a lesson in history and entertainment. To respect its meaning and its wisdom would be to adhere to them. What you say is childish, I say is respectful. But I can see how we can come to different conclusions.

SIDENOTE: to use the Bible to swear in a neo-pagan, polytheistic practitioner in ancient witchcraft, rituals and occultism(for example) would be to defeat the real purpose of the Bible.

Originally posted by RockpuckAs long as Chaos is recognized by all individual parties within the system, Chaos become the order by which they operate.

From Chaos(darkness), however prevalent however recognized, can NEVER come TRUE light.

Originally posted by RockpuckNice to have a civil, intellectual conversation with someone on this forum....

Same my friend

Originally posted by Rockpuck




Hmm. I see what you mean. Except, the Bible is not used for its actual meaning.. that is.. Christ. In fact, Christ is never mentioned (in my state, or in the Northern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite) once in Masonry.

Hmm. Then maybe It shouldn't be used at all.

[edit on 23-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

Originally posted by brinkofluv

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Hmm. I see what you mean. Except, the Bible is not used for its actual meaning.. that is.. Christ. In fact, Christ is never mentioned (in my state, or in the Northern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite) once in Masonry.

Hmm. Then maybe It shouldn't be used at all.

The Bible aka Volume of the Sacred Law is used as a stand-in for a person's holy book. The Bible (Old Testament that is) is emblematic of the essential goods that men everywhere share. If candidates have one of their own, it's placed on top of the VOSL so that their vow is relevant and personal to them. This is, quite simply, to remind men everywhere that the goodness men of all creeds do is essentially the same and worthy of equal note and regard, regardless of the banner beneath which it flies.

Any group that performs rituals, ceremonies and oaths in secret are nothing else but SECRET Societies.

99.999% of Freemasons really don't know what it's all about.

Only the very few top elite have the revelation and big picture.

Many are being deceived.

So what do all the secret societies have in common?

Skull & Bones
Bohemian Club
Freemasonry
"
"
" etc. etc. etc.
New World Order
Preparation

The word is ARMEGGEDON,

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
99.999% of Freemasons really don't know what it's all about.

But YOU do? Interesting.

On a side note, why did you feel the need to post this on an essentially "dead" thread that hadn't been posted to in over two months - with a basically off-topic post, too?

My father-inlaw is a freemason.He tells me it has done wonders for him on a personal level.I have no problem with the big meeting houses and what.I have more of a problem with mega churches.What gets me is that God commanded that no images of of anything concerning Him or heaven should be made,but the same church that tells me how to live my life,tells me im wrong for this and that have those images everywhere in church.Its like obey the ten commandments but if you break this one its ok.

Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I see post from masons explaining all the good and upstanding things masons do, and how harmless masons are. If they are so " good " can someone please explain the following to me.

How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings, just to do blood drives and give to charities? I know that they do rituals and have meetings, but the local lodge here is as grand as the surpreme court building. Why the need for such costly huge buildings?

Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church? Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?

Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization? And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears. Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.

I have never seen these questions answered my the masons yet. I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that? They say they believe in God.

Can I get an answer to these questions from a true mason? Or will I get the same old reply. "Well we do blood drives, and give to needy, and our rituals are not anything but acting."

I would say Hitler wanted rid of the Freemasons as he was a Roman Catholic and The Roman Catholic church were heavily involved in WW2.

Originally posted by orangeman dave
I would say Hitler wanted rid of the Freemasons as he was a Roman Catholic and The Roman Catholic church were heavily involved in WW2.

I was under the impression that Hitler was a Lutheran.