If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by brinkofluv

 

Let me point out one of these teachings of Christ: That there is 'only one God, Father of Christ and no one cometh to the Father but through Him (Christ) and Him alone'.

Apparently, freemasonry (not individuals) not only 'ignores' this rule when accepting its members, but as a matter of principle flouts it.

Interesting...

So Christian Masons are "bad Masons" because they are with people who are not Christian? God is God, there is no definition of God, but rather an independant version depending on the individual.

My God is different then YOUR God.

A Christian Mason will believe God is the One God, and the holy Father of Christ.

But I wouldn't. And a Jew wouldn't.. and a Wiccan wouldnt.

Why should we have Christians suppress us with THEIR theology? The nature of Masonry is to free men from the bonds of Dogma, and to use its philosophies to further their individual religious commitments.

Rockpuck friend, from reading your earlier posts(which i have been enjoying) I know that you are very intelligent and know full well that is NOT the message of my post. Why you choose to put it like that is up to you not me. I don't know what bad mason/good mason is. People should be allowed to mix with whoever they want, religion should not be an almighty prerequisite.

Also it was a mason himself who talked about 'not going against the laws of Christianity.' But you probably knew that as well.

Again it was a mason who said(not me) that masonic laws are based on Christian teachings. I believe he also went as far as to say 'exclusively'.

Maybe masonry is really really flexible. I don't know. Would I be allowed (going by your logic of course) to say freemasonry stands for nothing exactly then??


To each his own.

I suspect this will be my last post on this thread(hey, maybe not).

[edit on 21-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

[edit on 21-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

reply to post by brinkofluv


i don't know where you stand mate, I can only try and discern where you stand by what you say.. perhaps your words where not processed correctly by my self. I certainly do hope that is not your stance though.

Maybe masonry is really really flexible. I don't know. Would I be allowed (going by your logic of course) to say freemasonry stands for nothing exactly then??

That would be a correct assesment. It stands for God.. but any monotheistic God will do.. so essentially taking no preference, thus no stance, or essentially nothing in particular.

Originally posted by Rockpuck


[Freemasonry has no stance] ...so essentially taking no preference, thus no stance, or essentially nothing in particular.

... and therefore cannot be a proper medium for shining TRUE light.

reply to post by brinkofluv


Really? Personally.. I find that believing in ONE God and only that God and all other peoples beliefs in God being wrong, so that they should be punished, ridiculed, outcasted, looked down on and other wise thought of as "subhuman" would be a far bigger prohibitor of Light and Wisdom.

By standing for no one God in particular, it allows all men of all faiths to work together to do good, without having to worry about Dogmatic belief systems that rigerously regulate individuals.

In other words... the complete opposite of what you think.

Though I do see exactly how you would come to that conclussion.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by brinkofluv

 

Really? Personally.. I find that believing in ONE God and only that God and all other peoples beliefs in God being wrong, so that they should be punished, ridiculed, outcasted, looked down on and other wise thought of as "subhuman" would be a far bigger prohibitor of Light and Wisdom.

By standing for no one God in particular, it allows all men of all faiths to work together to do good, without having to worry about Dogmatic belief systems that rigerously regulate individuals.

In other words... the complete opposite of what you think.

Though I do see exactly how you would come to that conclussion.

Yes yes friend. I say very convenient. 'We' don't stand for any one thing, yet stand for everyone.

I'll play along. Let's conveniently forget also that religion and faith are not party politics. It's not an umbrella organization(or fraternity). It has strict rules and expects strict adhesion to those rules by its followers. It doesn't say(stereotyping) ridicule or outcast anyone, but does outline that people are different by their faith(by their fruits ye shall know them), and they ARE.

In continuation of our little game, let's conveniently use(or borrow) whatever we find from the Bible we consider useful, and discard its most basic and sacred teachings. But here's the thing: if 'we' are not going to respect and honor IN FULL the true message of the Bible, then perhaps 'we' should be forthright enough to exclude completely it's teachings and use from 'our' philosophies, rituals and ceremonies.

But then again that wouldn't be convenient. Let's just flout whatever laws we don't want and use whatever suits us. Let's be flexible. Nothing like dogma eh? Perhaps there CAN be order out of chaos afterall.


Goodnight brother

[edit on 21-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

[edit on 21-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

Hi brinkofluv

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Hello Trinity.
I never said you serve more than one God. I agree with you that there is only one true God. I also said 'spending time' with people of different faiths is not a bad thing. I said it happens in offices, social groups and countless other gatherings. However, there is a significant difference between (a) accepting people of different faiths into your group and (b) actually insisting 'absolutely' that without those beliefs (which can be of a varied nature) one cannot join your group.

Presumably the difference you are referring to is the specific membership requirement. I'm not sure of the relevance of this, unless you believe this criterion somehow legitimizes non-Christian monotheistic religions. It does not - it has no opinion one way or the other. It is simply a natural membership selection based on the nature of the ritual.

I also said i found the totality of this rule(option b) baffling because religious beliefs (indeed for any religion) have never been a guarantee of moral and upright behavior of individuals, qualities I assume responsible organizations such as yours look for when accepting/initiating members.

This also is true, but isn't the point. A man without religious beliefs will get no value from lessons which assume the intimate and integral role of a Creator in all matters. It has nothing to do with whether religious people are more moral than non-religious people. I doubt there's any evidence one way or the other on that one.

Unfortunately also, some beliefs actually advocate wrongful and unjust practices. I remember using 'devil worship' though I have admitted that this was used for dramatic effect. Nonetheless, religions like that exist. Something masonry doesn't seem bothered about as option b seems quite ambiguous.

There are more membership criteria than just belief in a Supreme Being, the key ones I outlined in a previous posting. Someone who believed in a diabolic god really wouldn't get very far into the ceremony before he came a cropper.
There is also the additional element of each lodge being a private members club, membership of which can only be gained by a consent of the vast majority of the membership. Part of the role of an investigating committee is to ascertain whether the candidate is suitable material for freemasonry, and to make as much inquiry as they deem necessary to reach this conclusion. Someone with impure motives, for example, oughtn't to make it past even this stage. And then there's the ballot...

SIDENOTE: I find the discussion (by masonic brothers in the above thread) on the expelled wiccan (pro or against) quite interesting.

Me too. In my jurisdiction a Wiccan would be most welcome, as long as he affirmed that he believed in a Supreme Being.

Let me point out one of these teachings of Christ: That there is 'only one God, Father of Christ and no one cometh to the Father but through Him (Christ) and Him alone'. Apparently, freemasonry (not individuals) not only 'ignores' this rule when accepting its members, but as a matter of principle flouts it.

This is an excellent quote, and part of the true basis of my faith. However, freemasonry is areligious, it makes no judgments in such matters and makes no attempt to influence members towards one religion or another. It is not the function of freemasonry to get involved in any way with such matters.

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Again it was a mason who said(not me) that masonic laws are based on Christian teachings. I believe he also went as far as to say 'exclusively'.

I believe that was me. The morality taught within freemasonry is the morality of the Holy Bible. I wouldn't say it's exclusively biblical though, as many other religions teach the same stuff. But freemasonry specifically is based on a Biblical source - a casual read of any ritual would soon reveal that.

Laws are something different, the only masonic laws that exist are to do with the management and administration of the Craft. Freemasonry is not dogmatic in that sense.

Maybe masonry is really really flexible. I don't know. Would I be allowed (going by your logic of course) to say freemasonry stands for nothing exactly then??

Yes, freemasonry is really flexible. It is a framework in which the individual can develop in their own direction.

Having read your posts, brinkofluv, I imagine the lack of specific spiritual direction by freemasonry concerns you. I believe you feel a potential spiritual complacency within freemasonry, knowingly allowing people to tread the wrong path and failing to act. If you feel this way I am sorry, but to think this way would be IMO to fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of freemasonry. It allows people who would otherwise be "at a perpetual distance" to meet and enjoy fellowship without the burdensome divisiveness of politics or religion*. Its amazing what you can learn about someone when you actually talk to them.

(* in Alabama the prohibition is extended to Football too )

reply to post by brinkofluv

It has strict rules and expects strict adhesion to those rules by its followers. It doesn't say(stereotyping) ridicule or outcast anyone, but does outline that people are different by their faith(by their fruits ye shall know them), and they ARE.

Actually it makes no difference.. Religion is a prohibited topic.. and is very strictly followed. I can swear on my life I have never heard a political or religious conversation or question posed while being a Mason. Not once.

So in all actuality. We are not different at all....

Because we don't make people different by singling out peoples faith.

whatever we find from the Bible we consider useful, and discard its most basic and sacred teachings.

Hmm. I see what you mean. Except, the Bible is not used for its actual meaning.. that is.. Christ. In fact, Christ is never mentioned (in my state, or in the Northern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite) once in Masonry.

However......

Seeing as the vast majority of Masons are Christian, and the probability is, they always will be.. Masonic teachings lean heavily on teachings from the Bible.. actually more so from the Old Testament.

More Jewish then Christian in many cases.

if 'we' are not going to respect and honor IN FULL the true message of the Bible, then perhaps 'we' should be forthright enough to exclude completely it's teachings and use from 'our' philosophies, rituals and ceremonies.

Why do that? that is childish. Can one not read the passages of the Bible and respect its beauty, its meaning, its wisdom and its history.. yet not subscribe to the Dogma that dictates an individuals submission to one faith?

I am a Mason. I am not a Christian. I have a Masonic Bible (not actually different) sitting on the middle self of my book case, displaying its art work to the room.

I may not be a Christian, but I revere the Christian teachings.

But then again that wouldn't be convenient.

Has nothing to do with it.. its the fundamental teachings of the Enlightenment age from which these philosophies come from.

Nothing like dogma eh? Perhaps there CAN be order out of chaos after all.

As long as Chaos is recognized by all individual parties within the system, Chaos become the order by which they operate.

Nice to have a civil, intellectual conversation with someone on this forum for once.

Good night, friend.

[edit on 2/21/2008 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Rockpuck



Why do that? that is childish. Can one not read the passages of the Bible and respect its beauty, its meaning, its wisdom and its history.. yet not subscribe to the Dogma that dictates an individuals submission to one faith?

Except, the Bible is not 'people magazine'. It's also more than a lesson in history and entertainment. To respect its meaning and its wisdom would be to adhere to them. What you say is childish, I say is respectful. But I can see how we can come to different conclusions.

SIDENOTE: to use the Bible to swear in a neo-pagan, polytheistic practitioner in ancient witchcraft, rituals and occultism(for example) would be to defeat the real purpose of the Bible.

Originally posted by RockpuckAs long as Chaos is recognized by all individual parties within the system, Chaos become the order by which they operate.

From Chaos(darkness), however prevalent however recognized, can NEVER come TRUE light.

Originally posted by RockpuckNice to have a civil, intellectual conversation with someone on this forum....

Same my friend

Originally posted by Rockpuck




Hmm. I see what you mean. Except, the Bible is not used for its actual meaning.. that is.. Christ. In fact, Christ is never mentioned (in my state, or in the Northern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite) once in Masonry.

Hmm. Then maybe It shouldn't be used at all.

[edit on 23-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

Originally posted by brinkofluv

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Hmm. I see what you mean. Except, the Bible is not used for its actual meaning.. that is.. Christ. In fact, Christ is never mentioned (in my state, or in the Northern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite) once in Masonry.

Hmm. Then maybe It shouldn't be used at all.

The Bible aka Volume of the Sacred Law is used as a stand-in for a person's holy book. The Bible (Old Testament that is) is emblematic of the essential goods that men everywhere share. If candidates have one of their own, it's placed on top of the VOSL so that their vow is relevant and personal to them. This is, quite simply, to remind men everywhere that the goodness men of all creeds do is essentially the same and worthy of equal note and regard, regardless of the banner beneath which it flies.

Any group that performs rituals, ceremonies and oaths in secret are nothing else but SECRET Societies.

99.999% of Freemasons really don't know what it's all about.

Only the very few top elite have the revelation and big picture.

Many are being deceived.

So what do all the secret societies have in common?

Skull & Bones
Bohemian Club
Freemasonry
"
"
" etc. etc. etc.
New World Order
Preparation

The word is ARMEGGEDON,

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
99.999% of Freemasons really don't know what it's all about.

But YOU do? Interesting.

On a side note, why did you feel the need to post this on an essentially "dead" thread that hadn't been posted to in over two months - with a basically off-topic post, too?

My father-inlaw is a freemason.He tells me it has done wonders for him on a personal level.I have no problem with the big meeting houses and what.I have more of a problem with mega churches.What gets me is that God commanded that no images of of anything concerning Him or heaven should be made,but the same church that tells me how to live my life,tells me im wrong for this and that have those images everywhere in church.Its like obey the ten commandments but if you break this one its ok.

reply to post by emsed1


you need anal experience to awaken your inhibited desires..

area51

Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
I see post from masons explaining all the good and upstanding things masons do, and how harmless masons are. If they are so " good " can someone please explain the following to me.

How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings, just to do blood drives and give to charities? I know that they do rituals and have meetings, but the local lodge here is as grand as the surpreme court building. Why the need for such costly huge buildings?

Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church? Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?

Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization? And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears. Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.

I have never seen these questions answered my the masons yet. I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that? They say they believe in God.

Can I get an answer to these questions from a true mason? Or will I get the same old reply. "Well we do blood drives, and give to needy, and our rituals are not anything but acting."

I would say Hitler wanted rid of the Freemasons as he was a Roman Catholic and The Roman Catholic church were heavily involved in WW2.

Originally posted by orangeman dave
I would say Hitler wanted rid of the Freemasons as he was a Roman Catholic and The Roman Catholic church were heavily involved in WW2.

I was under the impression that Hitler was a Lutheran.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by orangeman dave
I would say Hitler wanted rid of the Freemasons as he was a Roman Catholic and The Roman Catholic church were heavily involved in WW2.

I was under the impression that Hitler was a Lutheran.

Nope He Was a Roman Catholic as was most SS men he even referred to one of his generals as Ignatius Loyola. This is why the Vatican helped smuggle the SS men using rat runs in South America the Vaticans hands are covered in blood.

www.spirituallysmart.com... this will give you an idea of how they were involved. Basically the Nazis were carrying out the Vaticans Inquisition getting rid of The Jews, Freemasons, Orthodox Christians etc.

You can see they had help from this Priest who help condem Thousands of Orthodox Christians to Death and who the Vatican found worthy of a Sainthood god their is even buildings named after him in the U.S. The Catholic church dont seem to have changed as per the clips of the Nazi band playing in their church.

[edit on 26-9-2008 by orangeman dave]