If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

Originally posted by corsig
May I ask you in return why the churches on every street corner is more extravagant and grand than any lodge I've every seen?

Where does that money come from and does it sit well with you that the money used to build them is tax exempt.

Walk into any church and there is more gold and silver and art work that could help pay off a small world country debt.

Do you think the church takes kindly to nay sayer who oppose them?

Brush up on your history and come back with what you learned.

Thanks
Cory

I assume you are talking about the Mormon church?

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Feel free to say to me whatever you want.

Why golly gee. Thanks.

But no thanks.

You come on board accusing people you don't know of thinking they're
"all knowing" and "super intelligent."

You make snotty remarks about giving your IP address.

You accuse people you don't know of blasphemy, and you judge people when the Bible I have says NOT to Judge others.

Confrontational? You're either trolling or you're up to something else.

Actually I suspect you're up to something else.

Have a great day.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Appak]

Typical. Good day to you too

Originally posted by jcbrownman
I assume you are talking about the Mormon church?

Why would you assume this? The First Presbyterian Church in my old home-town is more ornate than even the Catholic one. Heck we don't even HAVE a Mormon church.

On a somewhat similar note I've noticed lately that a lot of the non-denominational Christian churches, while they may not be so "ornate" as in stained-glass windows, marble statuary, etc. they ARE huge and extremely expensive structures with all the modern conveniences, communication, sound system and so forth...built on some of the most expensive real estate in town.

Conversely the Lodge in my old home town is on the upper floor of a mom & pop grocery store. Last time I was there the roof leaked and one of the restrooms didn't work.

Just an observation.

Ain't no innocent souls here.

Originally posted by brinkofluv


No they are not.

They aren't what?

It just shows how some of your claims that you (some of) are christians and how masonry is not opposed to christianity is wrong. At least it may not be to you but trust me it is. Christianity leaves no room for ''...what others would consider blasphemous...''

I am well acquainted with Christianity. That's also why I no longer consider myself a Christian, at least not in the traditional sense. But regardless, it has nothing to do with the topic.

i believe he was a sovereign grand commander. I never said he founded the masons. But to deny some of his influence and contributions to masonry would be, well, unfair, putting it lightly.

Pike was Sovereign Grand Commander (presiding officer) of the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite for Southern Jurisdiction of the United States. He did indeed have remarkable influence there. However, he had practically no influence on other Scottish Rite Supreme Councils, and was never a Grand Lodge officer.

One of particular note is where he talks about 'ignorant people who join and only deserve to be deceived and 'truth' and real meaning of masonry hidden from them' (not a nice thing to say about your own members btw).

Pike's beliefs concerning this are practically universally refuted by today's Masonic scholars. Therefore what Pike said to that effect is pretty much a non-issue today. Furthermore, Pike himself eventually retracted such statements after his basic theory was disproven by Gould (i.e., that Masons come from the Knights Templar).

Regardless, Pike had a lot of good stuff to say and some really great ideas. He also was handicapped by the fact that he had to rely on legends and his own imagination at times because he did not have access to original documents. Pike should be read today, especially by Scottish Rite Masons in the southern jurisdiction. They will learn much by doing so.

But he should never be considered infallible, and was mistaken more than once.

reply to post by masonic light

Hi. Inspite of how much i am enjoying reading your replies (and i am), it's getting late here in my timezone. I will post a reply 2morow to which you can reply if you so please when convenient for you. I can certainly appreciate your attempts to convey your point of view across which is totally fair. You may not believe this but i have had to defend my religion too, widespread as it may be. Sometimes from very blunt and quite harsh attacks. I still have some curiosities about FM and would be happy to hear from members as yourself, if you don't mind of course. Goodnight



[edit on 18-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

My biggest(unfortunately not only) gripe with masonry is this: Of all the requirements in this world, of all the attributes of good and moral character in a human, THE masonic prerequisite for membership is '..you must believe in a supreme being'. Belief in a supreme being HAS NEVER been a guarantee of moral and upright behavior, otherwise we wouldn't have religious and hate crimes, amongst others. I have heard masons say that masonry is not anti-Christian. You see, here-in lies the 'wonder' of it. It seems (personal opinion, not judging anyone) cleverly deceitful. The acceptance of any other god but the one true God with Jesus Christ his son is not only anti-Christian but is blasphemous. Yet strangely enough that is the one true requirement to become a mason. Some masons say they are Christians. Well I'm surprised this needs to be said but I'll say it anyway: you are NOT a Christian if you entertain 'other' religions as valid. Going to church and reading a bible are not the determinant of who is a Christian neither is uttering it with your lips. A Christian is one who has accepted Jesus as his ONLY Lord and Saviour, repented his sin and follows God the Father of Christ. However smartly this is argued, you ARE NOT Christian if you are a freemason, the one organisation who will ONLY accept you so long as you choose from an apparent multi optional list of deities. And strictly out of curiousity, if my religion were Luciferianism and i believed him to be the supreme being would i be allowed membership of freemasonry?
Freemasonry and indeed Religion are too multi faceted to be x-rayed in total on this forum. It's indeed a life-long process. To each his own. I would however like to post this statement below from freemasonry:

''What compels Masons to be secret is not fear of the Light;
for Light is what they desire, seek for, and adore.
But they fear Profaners, that is to say, false interpreters,
calumniators, skeptics, with their stupid laugh and the enemies
of all belief and all morality.''
--Albert Pike, 24� ritual, "Prince of the Tabernacle"

And to this i say REAL truth has nothing to fear from anyone or anything. It has no need for secrecy.

Also:

''Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully
as when they do it from religious conviction.''
--Blaise Pascal, Pens�es

So i think we can safely say that the basis upon which members are initiated are deeply flawed, to put it mildly.
Good day

There is a very simple reason masons are required to believe in a supreme being.

Belief in a supreme being means that you profess that there is something greater than yourself in this universe, and that by helping others and living a good life you can grow closer to that 'something'.

There is no discussion of religion or religious belief in masonry outside of asking a new candidate if he believes in a supreme being. Religious beliefs are not allowed as a topic of discussion in the lodge.

If someone does not believe in a supreme being, then the lessons and activities of masonry would not satisfy that person.

Originally posted by brinkofluv
My biggest(unfortunately not only) gripe with masonry is this: Of all the requirements in this world, of all the attributes of good and moral character in a human, THE masonic prerequisite for membership is '..you must believe in a supreme being'. Belief in a supreme being HAS NEVER been a guarantee of moral and upright behavior, otherwise we wouldn't have religious and hate crimes, amongst others.

I agree completely. But belief in a Supreme Being is not the only prerequisite for membership. One must also be of good moral reputation, and is investigated by the membership committee before being approved for initiation.

Belief in a Supreme Being does not guarantee morality and virtue, but Freemasonry is a theistic organization; Masonic initiation would be a complete waste of time for an atheist.

I have heard masons say that masonry is not anti-Christian. You see, here-in lies the 'wonder' of it. It seems (personal opinion, not judging anyone) cleverly deceitful. The acceptance of any other god but the one true God with Jesus Christ his son is not only anti-Christian but is blasphemous.

I do not agree. Personally, I do not think the God of most Christians is the "One True God". In fact, I think the majority of Christians worship an idol of their own minds that they themselves have created.

Well I'm surprised this needs to be said but I'll say it anyway: you are NOT a Christian if you entertain 'other' religions as valid.

Freemasonry does not claim that any religion is valid or invalid. Freemasonry is a fraternal order, and does not interfere with its members personal religious opinions.

And strictly out of curiousity, if my religion were Luciferianism and i believed him to be the supreme being would i be allowed membership of freemasonry?

"Luciferianism" is not a religion. If you mean Satanism, it isn't a real religion either. The belief in the existence of Satan is a Judeo-Christian belief.

In reality, Freemasonry takes the exact same stance as the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts also require belief in a Supreme Being, but does not require any particular religion. Freemasonry believes in freedom of religion, and says that it is unjust to discriminate on the basis of religious belief. No one in Masonry is questioned as to their personal religious opinions, but all Masons are required to act morally.

I would however like to post this statement below from freemasonry:

''What compels Masons to be secret is not fear of the Light;
for Light is what they desire, seek for, and adore.
But they fear Profaners, that is to say, false interpreters,
calumniators, skeptics, with their stupid laugh and the enemies
of all belief and all morality.''
--Albert Pike, 24� ritual, "Prince of the Tabernacle"

And to this i say REAL truth has nothing to fear from anyone or anything. It has no need for secrecy.

Agreed. However, the teachings and truths of Freenasonry are not secret, and never have been secret.

''Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully
as when they do it from religious conviction.''
--Blaise Pascal, Pens�es

I agree with statement also.

So i think we can safely say that the basis upon which members are initiated are deeply flawed, to put it mildly.

Not at all. For example, Christian fundamentalists attack Freemasonry out of "religious conviction" (per Pascal). Freemasonry's teachings have helped lead the world out of the darkness and superstition of the middle ages, and into the age of reason, science, and enlightenment. People are initiated upon the basis that truth can be found in many places.

Masonic light I appreciate your reply. I was hoping You would as it's obvious you state your case in an intelligent thought out manner, which is appreciated. Discussions of one's beliefs can be quite sensitive.
Belief in a supreme being i doubt can ever be THE only requirement for initiation into masonry. BUT IT CERTAINLY IS A REQUIREMENT WITHOUT WHICH YOU CAN NOT JOIN. Note that i used the term deceitful in my post. I didn't use it to ridicule anyone. Let us note that most, if not all(I'm being neutral here), religions are mono-deistic, so to speak. They advocate belief strictly in their own idea of a supreme being without compromise. Members of such religions are required to adhere strictly to this beliefs by their faith. Now when you accept people into your fold based on the fact that they MUST accept any form of religion of which there are 'numerous valid' examples, you do their faith a great disservice. |To any religion. This is true whether they realize it or not, and whether it is acknowledged or not. You are diminishing the essence of their faith(I'm trying to put this mildly). Remember also You nor I made this rule. INITIATION DID NOT HAVE TO BE BASED ON RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, especially as we agree this is no guarantee of righteousness.
Also, so what do you consider 'true' Christianity, not just the popular one you say most Christians practice? I really would like to know. What is your idea of the true god. Surely you can't be atheist, it's against your fraternity.
I agree totally that freemasonry doesn't dictate what religion is valid or invalid. It merely requires you be part of one and then devalues your values with 'multi accreditation'. Let's not forget religion is not party membership and is quite strict and sacred.
There IS a difference between belief in the existence of satan and the worship of satan. Most Christians believe there is a satan who certainly has some powers. So maybe i did not ask my question properly. If I worship satan as my supreme being, then am i allowed to join freemasonry? Remember that freemasons do not define who we worship, only that we worship. Whatever we call it, I'm certain there are people who worship satan.
ML(can i call you that for short) I was a boyscout and I'm sure we'll both agree that scouts and freemasons are fundamentally very different.
I'm a bit confused to 'the teachings and truths of freemason are not secret'. It is after all a secret society right? Now, if I require any information whatsoever(whether rituals, initiations, origins, access to any parts of headquarters, any documentation at all, etc and then some) would that be made available to me?
To each his own ML

Originally posted by brinkofluv
If I worship satan as my supreme being, then am i allowed to join freemasonry?

If you believe in the historical Satan-The angel created first by God and cast down from Heaven for his arrogance-then he is obviously not 'Supreme' no matter how you wish to parse or phrase the expression. He is obviously created by another and therefore can not be a Supreme Being.

Oh please, since when do 'we' define what a person worships? I asked a simple question i believe to be a yes or no question. If i worship the devil( believe me lots of people do) am i allowed into freemason. Please note that the people who worship him regard him as sovereign over anyother and anything. i honestly don't even understand why 'we're ' trying to define what devil worship is or is called. It exists, as I am sure you already know. All this talk of who historical satan i find rather boring and irrelevant.

Originally posted by brinkofluv

Oh please, since when do 'we' define what a person worships? I asked a simple question i believe to be a yes or no question. If i worship the devil( believe me lots of people do) am i allowed into freemason.

It would be the same if you said you worshipped the Archangel Gabriel, Satan is not a Supreme Being so the answer for me is no.

Please note that the people who worship him regard him as sovereign over anyother and anything. i honestly don't even understand why 'we're ' trying to define what devil worship is or is called.

Because the defiention of what a Supreme Being is, in regards Freemasonry, is crucial.

It exists, as I am sure you already know.

I know nothing of the sort, I do not believe in Satan or the Devil.

All this talk of who historical satan i find rather boring and irrelevant.

While I am not here to spare you from boredom the relavancy is important as the discussion centered around ones belief in a Supreme Being.

A question that may help. I believe in a supreme being. I don not call him God or Allah or Yahway. I refer to the supreme being as the Sacred Pineapple. It's not really a joke, it's about acknowledging that there IS a supreme but not conforming to a given religion.

I coined a phrase once, "Faith is a beautiful thing, religion is dangerous."

Would I be accepted?

reply to post by intrepid


I certainly hope so Intrepid.. because if not.. my membership may be in question.

Many Masons in the Enlightenment era where also Deist.. which is not any organized religion..

As for Satan .. I personally don't think a Satanist would find much in Masonry.. however, I my self would recognize that anyone who believed him to be Supreme would be allowed into Masonry.

ML and I had a debate over it a long long time ago.. essentially my reasoning's for this is that Satan may not be evil to a Satanist.. but rather God is actually the evil one.



But no, you do not have to be one of the three major Monotheistic religions to be a Mason.

EDIT meh spelling...

[edit on 2/19/2008 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

It would be the same if you said you worshipped the Archangel Gabriel, Satan is not a Supreme Being so the answer for me is no.

Oh dear oh dear. I thought we already agreed that 'we' don't validate or otherwise what a person's belief is. And I didn't ask what the answer for you is, but the answer for freemasonry. Or does accreditation of initiates vary according to individual members personal opinions?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusBecause the defiention of what a Supreme Being is, in regards Freemasonry, is crucial.

I'm sorry, does freemasonry define exactly what, or who a supreme being is for ALL it's 'accredited' religions? Can i get a list?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusI know nothing of the sort, I do not believe in Satan or the Devil.

Me neither personally. I don't worship him, which is what i think is relevant to this discussion. To say however that no one does i think would be rather,well, deceitful, or dishonest. After all let's not forget that 'we' do not validate.... You get where we're going. Or look at it this way, can you substantiate allah? But I'm sure you accept muslims. And so on.

Honestly I asked really a simple question.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusWhile I am not here to spare you from boredom...

Thank you friend

reply to post by brinkofluv


Also.. when you say "in God" its what ever God you worship.. no one should ever ask you to define your religion, if they do, you can always tell them to shove it.

People can be pricks about religion.

So in theory, a Satanist could say "God" and God being Satan and no one would be allowed to ask either way. So long as you don't try and sacrifice a goat during lodge, no one will know.. no one will care, and all should be fine.

Well.. Some people are not as liberal about that as I am. But as I said. No one should know.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

As for Satan .. I personally don't think a Satanist would find much in Masonry.. however, I my self would recognize that anyone who believed him to be Supreme would be allowed into Masonry.

But no, you do not have to be one of the three major Monotheistic religions to be a Mason.

Finally, an answer. Appreciated. Not so hard was it. And just for the record, your answer was ' worshipers of the devil are allowed in freemasonry'(though you do admit they might not find much, fair enough). I think some of my reservations are already being addressed. Can you please tell the 'christians' in your fraternity to pray for the world in this time of need.
Good night


And by the way, i know another organization that doesn't discriminate according to religion. It's called Christianity. As Christians we do not judge, which really means we do not condemn anyone to damnation because of their faith, or lack of. God alone decides who is worthy of forgiveness, as evidenced many times in the bible where many non Christians were forgiven, healed and saved. We may not agree with other religious beliefs, but I don't believe God asks us to condemn anyone. And to show mercy to all. I believe if i meet a Christian and non Christian who ask me for mercy, then my charge would be to give to whichever one is most in need.

[edit on 19-2-2008 by brinkofluv]

Originally posted by brinkofluv
Oh dear oh dear. I thought we already agreed that 'we' don't validate or otherwise what a person's belief is. And I didn't ask what the answer for you is, but the answer for freemasonry. Or does accreditation of initiates vary according to individual members personal opinions?

The validation is internal, you are soliciting opinions which are not hard and fast rules as Rockpuck has demonstrated. I do not find Satan to be supreme and if I were to actually believe in him he would, in my opinion, be subordinate to God. If you believed in Satan as supreme I would never know as we do not discuss ones beliefs in lodge or when interviewing candidates. The question is simply, 'Do you believe in a sumpreme being?' Without the caveat of, '....and what is his/her/its name?' In this case the answer would be yes, you could join although I feel it would offer you no spirtual rewards.

I'm sorry, does freemasonry define exactly what, or who a supreme being is for ALL it's 'accredited' religions? Can i get a list?

No it does not, there are no 'accredited' religions and ones faith is their own concern. I do not share mine and have no desire to share anyone elses. It is not why we meet.

Thank you friend

My pleasure.

reply to post by brinkofluv


Reading your language.. I am not to sure where you are taking what I said? Are you saying that by my admission it is not impossible for a Satanist to become a Mason that there are indeed Satanist or "devil worshipers" in Masonry?

Or, that by the phrase to tell Christians to "pray for the world" in relation to Christians in Masonry allowing them selves to be in a group associated with men of many varying religions?

Just looking for a bit of clarification.

I say that a "satanist" would not find much use of Masonry, because the ideas of Masonry that are taught are .. not "evil" but rather the opposite. It would be like me going to a "evil" satanist church to further my own personal faith.

However, I don't believe "satanist" in the context that people actually worship an evil deity.. at least, that would not make sense logically, and that individual is probably confused and or disturbed on one or two levels.. probably would set off red flags when going through discussion on implementing Masonic morals.

But the point is, your Supreme being is Yours and Yours alone, and I do not believe that anyone has the right to tell anyone else what they believe is wrong or right.

As for Christianity not accusing other faiths and organizations.... sadly.. I wish it where true, but the fact is. Its not.

If it where not for the derogatory nature of Christianity, there would be no need for Masonry.