Israel shuts off fuel and food

Originally posted by blurryone
Some of you people amaze me.

DaleGribble and a couple others i shall not name,

If Israel has a right to be forcefully (i say forcefully because the British Army moved in just before the handover) located where it is, because the Jewish People and Israel were located there before the Ottoman Empire moved through and took the land. Then wouldn't you have to agree that America should be disbanded and handed back? Because they moved through and stole the native american lands?? If its good enough for Israel it should be good enough for numerous native peoples around the world that the west has quashed in its race for territory.

no i wouldnt have to agree to that. because of a term called manifest destiny. why shouldn’t i be able to justify this situation in the same manor.

the brits didnt hand the Gaza strip and west bank back to isreal. they took it back. the brits turned the former ottoman empire into Palestine.

Originally posted by Harlequin

uk.news.yahoo.com
..."There is no fuel coming in and we have no reserves," Abeid said. He estimated as many as one million Gaza residents would be affected.

I don't understand how Gaza could still be so energy-dependant on supply from Israel when they the Palestinian state has been declared the legal owner of the gas/oil fields discovered just off the coast

Israel/Palestine conflict and natural gas resources

Perhaps any prospective deals to supply Israel from these fields should be torn up and re-negotiated with other nations such as Turkey of Egypt instead

[edit on 21-1-2008 by citizen smith]

reply to post by Sky watcher


you calling me a scumbag? what a nice thing to say
feel free to read the TC of ATS sadly i wont be insulting you back

Ignored

have a nice day

I think instead of focusing on the tit for tat fighting, both peoples should understand it's Britain who promised the Arabs and Israelis the land known as Palestine.

In my opinion, they knew exactly that there would be conflicts, but at the time they didn't care because they needed support for their war and post war events.

The Arabs were a big influence in the Ottoman Empire, and the many American Jews were an influence in the U.S.

I will try to find links supporting this info, but I originally got this info from a documentary called "Promises and Betrayals - Britain and the struggle for the holy land".

You can view the doc online Here

You will need RealPlayer to view it.

So here was this middle man, promising each side a reward, and now they get to watch while the two sides fight over the land. Each side is using it's religious heritage to claim rights to the land. This argument can go on forever. Nobody can go back in the past and come back with proof that this land belonged to them. There are only religious texts that support this.

Being born in Israel, immediately I was told how 'bad' and 'dangerous' Arabs and Palestinians are. I didn't buy it and did meet nice every day people just like myself, who don't care about the religious aspects and just want a normal life.

The context of negotiation should be 'how do we live together as human beings?' instead of who owns what piece of land.

I think the extremists on BOTH SIDES should be rounded up and jailed. Stop fighting each other in the name of God and treat each other as human beings. Stop arguing about who did what when, and start a new slate. Live in the NOW, not in the past.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to princeofpeace

Israel needs to be painfully clear: For every Kassam you fire at us, we shut off power for 2 hours.

And what should the Palestinians do for every house being bulldozed,Kids being sniped near the mines/full voltage fences, incursions taking place 24/7, people dying because they couldn’t get to hospital for treatment (checkpoint restrictions)?

Sit and watch and die?
[edit on 20-1-2008 by kangjia57]

I'm seriously wondering that several areas like Palestine (Kosovo) are trying to desperately gain independence, while their only income is either generated by the country thei are breaking off or by western charity... They should first gain economic independency and build a bloody area that can survive without charity (Israel supplying gaza with energy is pure charity.) Then these jackasses should start to think about areal disputes and fighting... No one respects an aggressive beggar

[edit on 21-1-2008 by northwolf]

At the End of the day if Israel really wanted peace they would have given back Palestinian lands time ago.

Of course there should be resistance, Israel is not gona extend itself by making the Palestinians flee because Muslims don’t flee they fight.

Cutting the supplies will make the civilians suffer. When civilians suffer they get angry. When they get angry they pick up arms. When they pick up arms they become terrorists. When they become terrorists the get killed by a hellfire missile. When the hellfire missile hits it also kills other civilians. Back to SQUARE ONE.

No matter how many terrorists you kill, there will be more to replace them.

Israel doesn’t want Peace it wants to extend according to what the Jewish scripture has stated as their ‘Natural State’.

Solution-Just give the freekin lands back.

I always find it strange how Kassam rocket land in abandoned fields/lots about 95% of the time they are fired. These rockets are so inaccurate that it is as though some invisible hand is steering them away from the populated areas into conveniently placed fields, lots or Arab neighborhoods. The jews must truly be God's people.

Reply to northwolf

I'm seriously wondering that several areas like Palestine (Kosovo) are trying to desperately gain independence, while their only income is either generated by the country thei are breaking off or by western charity...

One country can only generate something when its FREE.
You tell me, how can they progress when Even the freekin basics are restricted to get to them?

economic independency?

Israel supplying gaza with energy is pure charity

Israel to exist in ME is pure charity from Muslims. But the Muslims didn’t know that this disease cannot be Contained, it only wants to Spread, thats why they were kicked out of Europe.

No one respects an aggressive beggar

No one respects an unthankful beggar.

Trust me Israels economic success is pretty much based on charity too... but they do have some forms of industry to back it up...

What palestinians need to do is establish a sea port not controlled by Israel (allowing Israeli customs to check shipments for weapons would probably be enough to win World for the idea) then lure back the brains that are lost in both extremism and to Western comppanies and start up some kind of a manufacturing base with the money given weekly by EU and start generating positive trade. When the territories economic situation starts to better, Israels blockades will have lesser effects and extremism starts to become less attractive. Now this would allso lead to Palestine having a little self esteem and respect and positive PR and Israel would most likely be seen as the bad guy without the need to Terrorise anything.

Best way out of the terror and extremism is economic growth by work and working economy... but i quess it's too much to ask that palestinian leaders, EU and US would understand this.

I think Israel is going for a "hail mary" massive aggression and hoping that the outrage in the Muslim world will provoke an actual real terrorist attack(not false flag like usual) and then they can say Iran was funding the terrorists that did whatever said attack and bam war with Iran.

Don't give me this Katyusha rocket crap. They don't hurt anyone they are practically fireworks compared to the weapons of the Israelis. Its just genocide in Palestine no debate.

reply to post by kangjia57

At the End of the day if Israel really wanted peace they would have given back Palestinian lands time ago.

Naturally there are big issues that prevent this from happening..

For one, the Palestinian government(s) have so far refused to "co-exist" .. to be an independent nation there needs to be cooperation from both sides.

When Israel and Palestine where close to a co-existance deal, opposition radicals destroyed the possibility with civil conflicts...

Israel is not going to drop everything, build walls and ignore Palestine. The regional instability effects their nation. But let it also be remembered that Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon all expect ISRAEL to keep the Palestinians in line..

As they all have a ... troubled history with Palestinians.

Of course there should be resistance, Israel is not gona extend itself by making the Palestinians flee because Muslims don’t flee they fight.

I don't get what your trying to say..

Israel has never tried to get them to "flee" .. there is no where for them to go? .. If a mass amount of Palestinians tried to rush into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, or Egypt all of those governments would have no problem keeping them at bay with full military force.

Remember the Siege of Palestinians vs. Lebanese? .. Just because they are Muslim does not mean they are friends.

Politics...

Cutting the supplies will make the civilians suffer. When civilians suffer they get angry. When they get angry they pick up arms.

The number of people arming them selves compared to the number of civilians is small.. The civilians suffer above all others, as political parties ensure their military wings are armed, fed and supplied before any civilian could dream of such treatment..

The whole idea behind these moves is not any "direct" outcome.. they actually expect that the civilians will see the treatment.. and think that it is Hammas's fault that Israel did this, and blame them, and they them selves dismantle the armed militias .. essentially.. its a game of "how long can you live in hell without mutiny."

Its a barbarous game. Both sides should be equally ashamed of themselves for using civilians as collateral for their own inability to be civil...

When they pick up arms they become terrorists.

No.. maybe in some peoples eyes, no doubt, but I have a feeling to some anything without an American flag on it holding a gun is a terrrrrist. Only Hammas is currently considered a terrorist organization, and there are reasons for it, though ironically they hold the reputation for being the best civil organization and humanitarian organization as well...

When they become terrorists the get killed by a hellfire missile. When the hellfire missile hits it also kills other civilians. Back to SQUARE ONE.

The practice of killing leading "terrorist" operatives is in no way unethical..

I would question the purpose of "home leveling" sometimes.. if a lowly insurgent is captured, or body identified, the Israeli government will literally run your home over with a bulldozer. The idea is to be a warning message to others in the family, and extended family "follow your kin this is what will happen" ...

I honestly cannot fathom how they believe that would be "preventive" in anyway.. though I also don't think they care.

And one should question whether or not, from both sides, is redemption, in any manor, condemnable?

No matter how many terrorists you kill, there will be more to replace them.

Because it is not a religious war, exactly, I would say it is more nationalistic then anything.. and there will always be people to defend their belief in a homeland.

Again, from either side, is this condemnable?

Israel doesn’t want Peace it wants to extend according to what the Jewish scripture has stated as their ‘Natural State’.

Ignorance of history and culture my friend..

Israel had no intention, and honestly, got screwed for taking Palestinian lands..

It was acquired after aggression from surrounding Islamic nation .. of course, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon where quite giddy to be gone with their troublesome Palestinian problems.

If Israel, which is actually a relatively liberal and secular society, wanted to "follow scripture" and rid the area of Muslims, they certainly don't lack to fire power to do it.

I wonder what the US, UK, France, Italy or any other post modern state would do if faced with the conditions of Israel.

America was attacked just once and invaded and occupied 2 nations 1000x the size of Israel.

Food for thought,

Just keep your mind open on the subject, there often more then 2 sides to every story.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Israel had done nothing but be nice and give them land is ridiculous.

LOL you're kidding? Israel, record holder for violations of UN resolutions, has stolen these lands, butchered these people, and created the world's single longest running humanitarian crises in modern history. Since it's inception, Israel's official policy (yes official policy) has been to create unlivable and harsh conditions for these people in order to force their immigration. It's talmudic apartheid at it's best, and I'm so utterly sick of people like yourself trying to whitewash the actions of this terrorist sponsoring pseudonation with racial generalizations against arabs, actions that are demonstrably responsible for so much suffering in the world. My god people really believe that Israel is a poor innocent little country of opressed jews who do no wrong. I guess corporate consolidation of the western media has done it's job.

I wonder how much oil ( or food, or medicine ) can be bought for the money that the Palestinians seem to have for rockets?

Guns or butter. Better to feed your people that to piss your money away on rockets.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I wonder how much oil ( or food, or medicine ) can be bought for the money that the Palestinians seem to have for rockets?
Guns or butter. Better to feed your people that to piss your money away on rockets.

Maybe if they were allowed food and medicene they wouldn't need rockets jsobecky. If somebody came and took my land, made me live like a refugee for 50 years while they kicked my granny around at the border crossing because she didn't have two days to wait in the summer heat for the denial or approval to go the freaking hospital, after they had cut my power, water, and food supplies, I'd be likely to lob a few firecrackers and bounce some rocks off their tanks as well.
How would react if the police came to your little town and said one of your neighbors had fired a rocket into a field so they were going to bulldoze your house for their settlement, cut your power, water, food, and medicene for your entire community off? What if they had been doing that very thing to you for 5 decades?

reply to post by twitchy


What they're doing now isn't working tho, twitchy.

There's no easy solution. And it will only get worse as long as the kids are taught to hate each other.

Reply to Rockpuck

For one, the Palestinian government(s) have so far refused to "co-exist" .. to be an independent nation there needs to be cooperation from both sides.

Muslims won’t cooperate till Palestinians get their lands back.
Do you actually think Israel will give the lands back if the Palestinians stop firing rockets?

Israel is not going to drop everything, build walls and ignore Palestine. The regional instability effects their nation. But let it also be remembered that Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon all expect ISRAEL to keep the Palestinians in line..

Israel gets enough from the US, so No instability doesn’t effect Israel.
Jordan,Egypt and Lebanon don’t want to give Israelis an excuse to bomb them and cripple everything they have worked hard for.

As they all have a ... troubled history with Palestinians.

The real trouble started when Jews were moved to ME.

Israel has never tried to get them to "flee" .. there is no where for them to go? .. If a mass amount of Palestinians tried to rush into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, or Egypt all of those governments would have no problem keeping them at bay with full military force.

Well I used a soft word ‘flee’. Israel wants suppress the Palestinians soo much that they all die like what the Russians did in Chechnya. Committing genocide tactically.

Remember the Siege of Palestinians vs. Lebanese? .. Just because they are Muslim does not mean they are friends.

Those were not Palestinains.There were Al Qaeda operatives trying to build their little base in those refugee camps.

The whole idea behind these moves is not any "direct" outcome.. they actually expect that the civilians will see the treatment.. and think that it is Hammas's fault that Israel did this, and blame them, and they them selves dismantle the armed militias .. essentially.. its a game of "how long can you live in hell without mutiny."

Tell you the truth if Israel did this to me and I see my family suffering. Instead of blaming Hamas I would blame Israel for trying to commit genocide.
Keeping in mind Hamas won the election by surprise (unexpected win).Doesn’t that tell you something...?

Its a barbarous game. Both sides should be equally ashamed of themselves for using civilians as collateral for their own inability to be civil...

IF Israel is civil than why does it keep making the civilians suffer?

Because it is not a religious war, exactly, I would say it is more nationalistic then anything.. and there will always be people to defend their belief in a homeland.

Its Muslim land that the Jews have occupied. Instead of being thankful for getting somewhere to live after holocaust, they behave like this?

If Israel, which is actually a relatively liberal and secular society, wanted to "follow scripture" and rid the area of Muslims, they certainly don't lack to fire power to do it.

Now that one makes me laugh.
Yes we have also seen the firepower tested in Lebanon.
80 merkavas (undestructable) toasted…talk about high military EGO..

I wonder what the US, UK, France, Italy or any other post modern state would do if faced with the conditions of Israel.

They wouldn’t have moved to ME in first place..
Like I said before, they sent the disease to ME and now it’s hard to contain.

America was attacked just once and invaded and occupied 2 nations 1000x the size of Israel.

You are talking like the job was a ‘piece of cake’.

I dare the US openly wage war on all Muslims and invade every single Muslim country. You have only seen what a few mujahideens can do with very little… imagine millions of them fighting a guirella warfare.

It would be vietnam style (US casualties) x 1000

Reminded me of how the Soviet soldiers shot themselves in transport helicopters rather than facing the mujahideens..

as Rumsfeld quoted ‘them fighting on camels and horses’…

Its funny how 'them fighting on camels and horses' tend to be soo much pain for the hi-tech millitary.

BBC
Israel has agreed to allow medical supplies and powerplant fuel to get through at least on tomorow morning. No fuel for cars etc. will be allowed to pass (a non essential in a area size of the gaza strip anyway).

reply to post by twitchy


Israel has belonged to the Jews for thousands of years. The Arabs in Israel that call themselves Palestinians are immigrants from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Those Arab country's don't want them back because they are mostly troublemakers and they want them to be a thorn in Israels back side. You need to study history not just what you learn from MSN. Israel has made many attempts to co-exist with them and they prove over and over that they can not live in peace or take care of themselves. The Arabs have started every war that Israel has had with them since 1948 and they have never or ever will be been defeated so get over it.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Palestinians are immigrants from Jordan, Egypt and Syria.

Yes, let's not forget where the "East bank" of the Jordan river is. And where do we get the name Palestine. From the Philistines who lived there who were, by the way, Southern Eurpeans.

Where did the name Palestine come from?
The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

Like I said earlier. Egypt has a border with Gaza. Is it open? Are they(Egyptians) shipping in food and water or just more guns and bullets.

Reply to Sky watcher

Israel has belonged to the Jews for thousands of years. The Arabs in Israel that call themselves Palestinians are immigrants from Jordan, Egypt and Syria.

Than why weren’t the Jews there from before in their ‘natural land’?
Holocaust junk was sent to Middle East. You fail to realise that..

Those Arab country's don't want them back because they are mostly troublemakers and they want them to be a thorn in Israels back side.

Looking at most of 9/11 terrorists/leaders and terrorists funding comes from Saudi Arabia. But to US they are peacemakers not ‘troublemakers’.
I wonder why…

Israel has made many attempts to co-exist with them and they prove over and over that they can not live in peace or take care of themselves.

Yes we have seen how the bulldozers,apaches,F 22s,Merkavas,electric/mine fences try and ‘co-exist’ with them and achieve ‘peace’.

The Arabs have started every war that Israel has had with them since 1948 and they have never or ever will be been defeated so get over it.

Arabs have learned their lessons since 1948.
Israel Never been defeated?
Yeh they have definitely done a nice job of a little group called ‘hezbullah’.
A few Russian anti-tank rockets send the whole Israeli army marching back to Israel.