Israel shuts off fuel and food

Reply to Desert Dawg

Sure is strange that Saudi Arabia and others of their ilk can't/won't do anything to help their brothers.

Maybe they are spending on gearing up themselves? You always hear about them having high value deals (billions) purchasing couple eurofighters etc..
But I agree they should help more to get their brothers/sisters outa this situation.
BUT what can they do?They and US are very good friends.Helping Palestine will make relationships bitter with the close (cheap oil buying friend).

Gotta pay for those gold bathroom fixtures somehow....

Yeh I also like their gold/diamond plated phones and their kids seem to cruise alot in Europe in their Ranges and Q7s.


[edit on 20-1-2008 by kangjia57]

reply to post by Desert Dawg


That is the point I was just getting ready to post! Nice.
Each Middle-Eastern Oil Wealthy country are building big palaces, islands, towers, casinos and other feats of technology. Each one of those will bring money into their land.
Why hasn't one of those countries built in the Palestinian land (when I say that I mean the land of the Palestinian authority and Gaza)? Oil and food is a great start. Long term economic plans would help the people there and bring money to Palestine. Turn Gaza into a beach resort that the world will flock to. Turn something in the land in the West Bank into a Vegas like area (not just gambling - use Dubai as a template).
This is a no win situation for Israel and Palestine.

Israel appears to be willing to live with the dozen or so rockets that are fired at them each day but the recent spike including a 50 rocket barrage one day last week seems to have pushed them over the edge. I guess the Palestinians wanted to up the status quo on the number of rockets they are firing therefore Israel is having to turn up pressure on its side.

reply to post by DaleGribble


I was writing that in not favoring the israel side. How do you think i am praising israel there in what i wrote. We are not getting anywhere near the truth.

Those people in gaza, are nothing more that animals to the israel government, who see them, like the stuff they picked up in there shoe.

Just becasue the nazis treated jews badly in ww2, israel feel they have some justification to do the same to the palestine people.

Like others have said, we never get the real news, and no one cares in the west, israel have free hand to do what they want. These threads are just a waste of time, when you think how many times we have talked about this before.


[edit on 1/20/2008 by andy1033]

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to princeofpeace

Israel needs to be painfully clear: For every Kassam you fire at us, we shut off power for 2 hours.

And what should the Palestinians do for every house being bulldozed,Kids being sniped near the mines/full voltage fences, incursions taking place 24/7, people dying because they couldn’t get to hospital for treatment (checkpoint restrictions)?

Sit and watch and die?



[edit on 20-1-2008 by kangjia57]

Things are a mess in that region, my friend. Even as I used to contrast and compare the different injustices from each side, this same type of reasoning will be the primary factor behind the perpetuation of similar events. "Well they did this!" That's not how this ridiculous scenario is going to play itself out peacefully. It's apparent that both sides, Palestinian and Israel have to come to a genuine compromise. Peace can exist no other way. Time heals, and the more we focus on what "they" have done, the longer that restricts peace from becoming a reality.

reply to post by harddrive21


might be due to the fact that the US emposes sanctions on anyone that wants to open shop in the occupied lands,

Banks are scared that the US would seize their assets and so on. and the Arabs surrounding the paliestianisn are spineless hypcripts who dont take a fudge about others apart from them selves.

on the Issue with Israel, the More Israel uses group punishment the more people will rally around Hamas and so on,
Israel say they cant tolirate Crude rockets shot at them but they are always the first to launch an attack to prevoke the rocket attacks.

Crude rockets from hamas death a few dozen
Israeli hellfire missiles and other state of the art weapons deaths couple hundred. in a short period.

even during Cease fires Israel still says it maintains the right to attack but expects no retaliation, bloody morons,




[edit on 20-1-2008 by bodrul]

"Derr... mozel tov, they're firing rockets and mortars at us, lets get together and feeeeeeeeel alright"

Nobody seems to want to take the Israeli point of view in mind, or should i say the Israeli reality.

What do you want them to do about constantly being barraged by qassam rockets, mortars, and katyusha artillery rockets on their southern towns and settlements, ones that are not in Gaza or West Bank. Just a few years ago there were thousands of Jewish settlers inside Gaza, I know we all remember when they got on their rooftops and refused to leave, having to be carried away arm and leg by Israeli soldiers. Israel essentially gave them that land to do whatever they wish. It was a gesture to them; at the time there was no big pressure on Ariel Sharon, no big deal in the works, he just did it. It was even unpopular widely w/the Israeli people.

So Hamas kicks Fatah and the Palestinian Authority out of Gaza shortly after this, making it a new mini-state of Hamas. They should call it Hamastan. And Hamas took Islamic Jihad under their wing, now they go out and shoot rockets and kill Israelis together. Just a few days ago a volunteer farmer from South America was shot and killed on the Israeli side of the border by a Palestinian sniper.

What do you do when 80 munitions of various kinds are shot from a territory just a hundred or so miles away, every day? Your people are routinely squatting in bomb shelters, it is slowing down daily life and literally terrorizing the people. How would you feel if a rocket/mortar could fall on your house at any given moment? What would you like to see done?

I know, cutting off the borders is only one way to approach it, but before you all say Israel is so terrible for doing this, look at the other options available for them. They've already been using their full intelligence and air power apparatus to shoot as many rocket/mortar launcher cells as they can, as well as other various members of terrorist groups facilitating the rocket teams. They do this day and night, and still yet there is no progress. WHY is there no progress? I will tell you why.

There's no progress because the majority of the munitions are fired from deep within the Palestinian refugee camps, which are essentially shabby towns. They do this to protect themselves from being picked out and because the world doesnt like it when Israel sends missiles into the refugee camps killing tons of innocent civillians. Not just a couple, we're talking 20+ dead in one strike, that is the population density. So, what do you do? Do you start firing missiles at teams deep inside the refugee camps, hitting tons of civilians, causing the world to cry out against your country and go after your country in the U.N., also stirring Islamic hatred up even further by killing so many. Why .. I bet Hezbollah would initiate an offensive right on the spot if Israel started lobbing missiles into the dense areas of the refugee camps regularly.

So what other options are there then, if you aren't gonig all-out militarily, occupying the god forsaken place with boots on the ground? You force them to stop and come to the table through a modern version of medieval siege warfare. The difference is, all the Palestinians in Gaza have to do to stop the siege is say "OK, we are done firing a bunch of rockets and mortars at your towns every single day, can we get the power back?" and Israel would relent. This is the idea! and IMHO, it is much better than going in guns blazing occupying and so forth, at least for an Israeli politician. The more effective route would probably be all-out military intervention, but as I said, the repercussions are too high.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by runetang]

Well this CNN link may help alittle

www.cnn.com...



So Gaza is only losing 25% of its power....that is bad but not as crippling as the article led me to believe. So their main power plant is shutdown now - I guess they can't reroute any of the other 75% then.

And they wonder why they are being attacked all the time!! the only country Israel will listen to is the USA and we all know nothing will happen.

I guess no other oil producing countries in the region will supply them with any oil or gas - Egypt has really stepped up to the plate here - helping generate a whopping 5% of the power for Gaza...Israel is still giving them 70%. The US should stay as far away from this as possible.

reply to post by DaleGribble

this is one of the most uneducated posts ive ever read. they use F-15's to attack homes of Islamic extremists yes. they lock gates to keep extremists in isolated areas. there has been nothing BUT a decline in violence since putting up the walls and tight security.

Yes and no..

While the decline in Israeli deaths has been apparent, this is true, there has been an increase in Palestinian deaths. And while you may think this is a sign that attacks have actually decreased against Israel, I believe it is very evident that attacks have actually greatly increased.. however the Palestinians do not have the ability to make them "work" so to speak. The rockets usually land in fields for the most part.

and yes it is Israelis responsibility its their country. and was their country and was stolen by the ottoman empire and regained in the mid 40's do the research from other eyes than fox or cnn or pmsnbc

Technically Palestine is at the very least a vassal of Israel, Israel still holds the land (which is why they control all movement) .. and if anything, the out cry against Israel should be that they do not give Palestinians the very same right as Israeli civilians, because as conquered peoples, they are all Israeli.

As for Israel being "stolen" .. it was never stolen.. it was re-named by the Emperor of Rome, Hadrian, because he lost a civil war against the Jews. As a result, he forced Scholars to re-name the land on maps, and never mention Judea again.

The fact that it became Islamic which is where Muslims take this whole "homeland" issue, is that being in the heart of the Islamic world, it would only be natural that Jews converted, or where out numbered.

Essentially, the people who are called Palestinians are the descendants of Judea, which when Jews say they where there first, they still are.

Under a new religion.

Complicated issue.

Some of you people amaze me.

Ranting on about how Israel has every right to do this because they get rocket attacks fired at them and blah blah blah

If Israel was the more 'mature' and righteous they would not strike back. They would just wait it out. Peace only comes from being peaceful.

Its far harder to walk the road of a righteous man than that of a lesser man.

If peace was so easy to achieve wouldn't we have a world without war by now? Of course we would! Sadly though, it is not that easy.

You have to take the proverbial and keep on taking it.

Peace has to start from somewhere, I would expect a country like Israel who have a proud people, to put their money where there mouth is and be leading from the front, setting the example. Not carrying on like children.

Off topic,

DaleGribble and a couple others i shall not name,

If Israel has a right to be forcefully (i say forcefully because the British Army moved in just before the handover) located where it is, because the Jewish People and Israel were located there before the Ottoman Empire moved through and took the land. Then wouldn't you have to agree that America should be disbanded and handed back? Because they moved through and stole the native american lands?? If its good enough for Israel it should be good enough for numerous native peoples around the world that the west has quashed in its race for territory.

Originally posted by runetang
What do you want them to do about constantly being barraged by qassam rockets, mortars, and katyusha artillery rockets on their southern towns and settlements, ones that are not in Gaza or West Bank. Just a few years ago there were thousands of Jewish settlers inside Gaza, I know we all remember when they got on their rooftops and refused to leave, having to be carried away arm and leg by Israeli soldiers. Israel essentially gave them that land to do whatever they wish. It was a gesture to them; at the time there was no big pressure on Ariel Sharon, no big deal in the works, he just did it. It was even unpopular widely w/the Israeli people.

closer the boarders and move more setllers close in?
box up and put more squaters in occupied land so they are closer targets? and then use that excuse to bulldoze couple fLats and houses?

Israel hasnt given what they want which is their Land and homes back, which is all of it and the right of return of millions of refugees that have fled due to the occupation,

funny enough the majority of Jews are European/african and a small minority just been Arab.

Originally posted by runetang
So Hamas kicks Fatah and the Palestinian Authority out of Gaza shortly after this, making it a new mini-state of Hamas. They should call it Hamastan. And Hamas took Islamic Jihad under their wing, now they go out and shoot rockets and kill Israelis together. Just a few days ago a volunteer farmer from South America was shot and killed on the Israeli side of the border by a Palestinian sniper.

you seem to forget to add before the Paliestinians even fire a rocket its usealy the Israelis that would launch one of its target assasinations or some other stunt to kill a palestinian,

Irsael killed what over 100 people in the last week in a few strikes targeting heavy cuvilian areas to kill Hamas members.
you want to go in to cuvilian Deaths? of innacent people on the Palestinian side because it would out weigh that of Israel hundred fold.

if the Israelis Kill Palestinian women and children you think their people wont be free game?

sadly thats the circle of life.

Israel launches an attack (pre-emtive, call it what you want)
the palestinian retalitate and Israel use that as an exucse for a follow up and the palestinians retraliate and so on.

also You seem to forget HAMAS was voted in by the people and when the US and Israel had the chance to deal with them and talk to them they out right refused and completly isolated the palestinian people. and causing the factions to split even further Hamas and fatah.

Originally posted by runetang
What do you do when 80 munitions of various kinds are shot from a territory just a hundred or so miles away, every day? Your people are routinely squatting in bomb shelters, it is slowing down daily life and literally terrorizing the people. How would you feel if a rocket/mortar could fall on your house at any given moment? What would you like to see done?

here is a question

what do you do when the following happens
Your Homes Buldozed

Your 30min walk to school/work takes extra 3-4 hours due to road blocks and the berlin wall.

Your Daughter/son are killed just because they are sitting in a class and the Israeli forces thought it would be a great day for them to run into streets and start a Gun fight, i mean why not its not like the child is israeli or jewish, the childs life has no worth as its not a chosen child of the chosen people.

your house is without power, no worries candle light is Great

No money because the israelis have decided to withhold palestinian money,

your Land slowly taken away from you

The Israelis dont have to deal with that, they have their Life, their goverment ensures that their familes dont suffer like the palestinians,
now you tell me what the palestinians are suppose to do?

80 types of rockets where the fudge did u get that number of types of rockets?

Originally posted by runetang
I know, cutting off the borders is only one way to approach it, but before you all say Israel is so terrible for doing this, look at the other options available for them.

They've already been using their full intelligence and air power apparatus to shoot as many rocket/mortar launcher cells as they can, as well as other various members of terrorist groups facilitating the rocket teams. They do this day and night, and still yet there is no progress. WHY is there no progress? I will tell you why.

full Inteligence
this CRACKED me up

if they used full inteligence they wouldnt be using hell fire missiles and other amunition in crowded streets. if they were using Inteligence they would have murderd thousends over the last few decades and Leboen being the most recent with 3000+ killed due to great Intel from Israel.

how about you tell me
why Israel uses Iligal weapons on cuvilians (cluster bombs) on cuvilians areas, attacks cuvilian infrontstructure and is responsible for thousends of deaths.


i will Tell you why there isnt any progress
aslong as the Israelis terraise their neigbours they will always have those that would fight back.
people will always stand up to bullies

Originally posted by runetang
There's no progress because the majority of the munitions are fired from deep within the Palestinian refugee camps, which are essentially shabby towns.

They do this to protect themselves from being picked out and because the world doesnt like it when Israel sends missiles into the refugee camps killing tons of innocent civillians. Not just a couple, we're talking 20+ dead in one strike, that is the population density.

So, what do you do? Do you start firing missiles at teams deep inside the refugee camps, hitting tons of civilians, causing the world to cry out against your country and go after your country in the U.N., also stirring Islamic hatred up even further by killing so many. Why ..

I bet Hezbollah would initiate an offensive right on the spot if Israel started lobbing missiles into the dense areas of the refugee camps regularly.

funny thing i was reading how Israel was doing the same thing except the Israelis dont have refugee camps they just place their military bases and so on near cuvilian areas and they do kill 20+ already so what would change?

Israel seem to already attack refuegee camps and so on
they are lucky the world doesnt say anything due to the jewish lobby group in washington which can get anything done,

bright side Hazbullah did fight back and unlike its Israeli apponents they killed mostly Military personale compared to the thousends of cuvilians the Israelis Murderd.

Anything said agaist Israel is anti-semtic

Originally posted by runetang
So what other options are there then, if you aren't gonig all-out militarily, occupying the god forsaken place with boots on the ground? You force them to stop and come to the table through a modern version of medieval siege warfare. The difference is, all the Palestinians in Gaza have to do to stop the siege is say "OK, we are done firing a bunch of rockets and mortars at your towns every single day, can we get the power back?" and Israel would relent. This is the idea! and IMHO, it is much better than going in guns blazing occupying and so forth, at least for an Israeli politician. The more effective route would probably be all-out military intervention, but as I said, the repercussions are too high.

seeing as Hamas made several attempts of Peace and ceasefires with Israel telling them where to stick it , its pretty hard
i mean how can you have a ceasefire with a country that would say that it would attack you but expect you not to do anything in return.

Israel cant keep their fingers off the trigger, all cease fires (almost all) have ended due to Israel launching a targeted assasination and expecting the palestinains just to take it.

Israelis are far worse then the Nazis atleast the Nazis had to face up to their Crimes.



[edit on 20-1-2008 by bodrul]

[edit on 20-1-2008 by bodrul]

My question is..if all these Arabs and people from other countrys in the Middle East are so worried about these "Palastinians" (which is not even a people..they are ARABS) why dont the other Arab people take care of them???? THIS is just absurd....The Israelys are supposed to just keep being bombed and ignore it..NOT
MOST of the Arabs who live amongst the Jews in Israel WANT to be Israely citizens..they have lived on both sides of the fence and KNOW which is best for them.

Originally posted by blurryone
Some of you people amaze me.

Ranting on about how Israel has every right to do this because they get rocket attacks fired at them and blah blah blah

If Israel was the more 'mature' and righteous they would not strike back. They would just wait it out. Peace only comes from being peaceful.

Its far harder to walk the road of a righteous man than that of a lesser man.

If peace was so easy to achieve wouldn't we have a world without war by now? Of course we would! Sadly though, it is not that easy.

You have to take the proverbial and keep on taking it.

Peace has to start from somewhere, I would expect a country like Israel who have a proud people, to put their money where there mouth is and be leading from the front, setting the example. Not carrying on like children.

I wonder if you would just sit back and smile if someone was launching missiles and killing your innocent civilians. Sending suicide bombers to blow up your innocent civilians. No way in hell.

well. the palestinians consider themselves a "people", so they are a
people. i do believe i heard palestinians are looked at differently by
other arabs because of a possible "heritage" thing?? saudis have a big
enough problem hanging on to their imperialist government to worry
openly about the palestinians. i really don't think any of them wish to
tussle with isreal.... i really do hope there is some type
of long lasting peace that can eventually come about but i also know
it will not happen as long as children (both sides) are taught each other
are pigs, not worthy of life. humanity must win this war!!!

[edit on 20-1-2008 by last time here]

I'll just repeat what I said before.

All the Palestinians have to say is say Ok, we will not fire anymore rockets at you.. and they'll get everything they want.

But they'd rather shoot off homemade rockets that barely do damage in some symbolic gesture of defiance. Well isnt that nice. I guess that is worth more than having a decent life.

Even the other Muslim nations arent even steppingup to help the Palestinians. Hmmmm...where is the great Iran in all this?

reply to post by bodrul


The Arabs in Gaza are scumbags and you defending them after they attack schools and homes when Israel had done nothing but be nice and give them land is ridiculous. You have a twisted view on what is right and wrong that puts you right up there with the Arab terrorist.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by DaleGribble

 

I was writing that in not favoring the israel side. How do you think i am praising israel there in what i wrote. We are not getting anywhere near the truth.



[edit on 1/20/2008 by andy1033]

i wasent claiming that you support the jews at all. i was just simply pointing out the flaws in the original post i replyed to