Koran a FAKE

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Then you need to go and call the other spades spades if this is the intention of your crusade. You cannot target one set of people who believe the same type of thing that several other groups of people believe but let them slide because the target differs. It is biased. It is hypocrisy. If you cannot see that, then I cannot help you.

I see that you received a warning on this thread. I'm sorry to hear that because I have enjoyed your thoughts and posts and have had fun speaking with you. But why? Because you referred to people as bumbling idiots, fools, radicals, etc. I never did this and refuse to do this. I believe in attacking the argument and subject but never the person. My argument was not really rebutted by you. I, the individual, was criticized and called things like "ignorant."

Anyways, I agree. This discussion is over. If you need to have the last word after this, please feel free. I do not want to fight with you because I can tell you are a nice person but a little off in your assessment. If you need to reply after this reply please feel free but as for me, this case is closed and I will be awaiting my replies from Kangja due to the fact that discussion is relevant to the actual topic. Not our little pittle pattle back and forth.

Are you familar with the Divine Council verses, Ashley? Check this out:
users.aristotle.net...

After you read it (really, take my word on this, you will want to read that!), take into consideration that there are some who believe that all 70 in the reference are there because they are part of God's plan for man. So they would view the interaction of angels with humans, as ordained by God.

Let's take for example, mormons. They believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers (meaning basically, that Jesus was an angel, or more precisely, a son of God or even more precisely, a god who made the grade, and that both provided equally important service while in God's employ). They would view infighting between religions as ludicrous, since the 70 who made the religions are in fact, all on the same page with God. Of course, this is assuming that fallen and holy angels are all doing God's will. I'ma kinda doubtin' that.

Anyway, this may account for some of the problems you're seeing on the thread. Just thought you could use a headsup on some topics.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
Are you familar with the Divine Council verses, Ashley? Check this out:
users.aristotle.net...

Anyway, this may account for some of the problems you're seeing on the thread. Just thought you could use a headsup on some topics.

Ah, thanks Darling. I was actually thinking about Ephesians 6:12 earlier in this thread and along the lines of that article.

It seems odd to me that a Christian can say the ocean is wet and we'll be ridiculed just because we are deemed the bad guys. Did you participate in the Crusades, Inquisition, or witch trials? I didn't either. But if we question someone else's religion we're bigots for simply asking.

Well, I'm way off topic... again. Just twiddling my thumbs waiting for my intolerant question about the Koran authorship to be answered. All in good time, I suppose.

Did you read the 70 info?
That's actually quite a dynamic piece of info in relation to all these questions and many of the events on this thread. Why did Gabriel talk to Muhammad and was it Gabriel? Why did the Angel (was it Moroni I can't remember?) talk to Joseph Smith and was the angel good, bad, indifferent? Are these messengers always delivering accurate information or are they members of the 70 that have left the path? We simply don't know. but what we do know, is Yeshua.
My guess is this'll all work out in the heavenly laundry.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by heliosprime

 

Does young Jesus killing another boy for beating him in a foot race sound demonic? Does it sound of character for such a divine person? You must read up on your Gospel of St. Thomas before you go being the trial and jury for another "prophet." You can claim the faults of other religions having probably not read the book yourself, but here you are praising the name of a young murderer yourself.

Please specifc text, quote and source.........

Muhammad was insane!

End of story!

Not everyone that claims spiritual connection is rightious.

Most are insane or just confused.

Muhammad was Muham mad man.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Please specifc text, quote and source.........

Eh, the tale is in the Gospel of Thomas I think. Jesus throws a young man out the window or something. How this is relevant to the topic or even Christianity the world will never know. Last I checked, The Gospel of Thomas is about as reliable and accepted in Christianity as the Gnostic texts (and even stinks of Gnosticism in itself).

It was just an irrelevant redirect to turn it all around on Christianity when this thread asks a very honest question about the Koran. Ephesians 6:12. Say it to yourself over and over again.

reply to post by AshleyD


Just what I thought, more "fun with dick and jane" false texts never put into the "holy" bible. Similar to the fake "book of adam and eve", etc.

Jesus was and is "perfect" unlike the faker muhammad..........

As on if my sig's say "truth favors the prepared mind" give that some deeper thought.................

Originally posted by Incarnated

Most are insane or just confused.

Pot meet Kettle.

Seriously, do any of you (on either side) feel better about yourselves or your fairy tales by trying to slam each others beliefs?

And claiming that you're all merely discussing ancient texts is laughable.

How's this?

You're all wrong.

And my proof? Faith

Originally posted by heliosprime
reply to post by AshleyD

 

Jesus was and is "perfect" unlike the faker muhammad..........

Would the real holy messenger of God please stand up . That's what this end of the discussion sounds like to me.

There's nothing at all wrong with being a Christian. But it's bits and pieces like that that pop out at me in this thread. You want to discuss the Koran as being fake? Fine. Go ahead. I'll be rootin' for ya. I hold all religions as being equally deluded as the next. But there's no points-getting for comments that degrade the other team. I'm not singling out Christians in this thread; flip the words Jesus and Mohammed and I'd be just as confuzzled.

I noticed that AshD makes some constructive arguments and that's good. But little blips of superiority bring down the argument that others are trying to make.

Oh well... please, continue

Originally posted by Comma8Comma1
Seriously, do any of you (on either side) feel better about yourselves or your fairy tales by trying to slam each others beliefs?

All we want to know is when the Koran was written, spliced together, and if it was before or after Mohammad's death. Also, what are the documentary sources or internal texts that confirm this conclusion.

At least that is all I want to know. But for some reason asking a question about another religion makes us intolerant bigots or that a religious war is on. It isn't. It's a question. A pretty simple one, too. Not saying that is what you are implying () but that has been the general tone of this thread.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


Scroll through some of the other comments from your fellow warriors in christ
and then tell me again (with a straight face) that this thread is a serious, fact finding mission on the history and validity of the Koran.

They're (mostly) nothing but one liners about the koran being "FAKE, end of story."
and Mohammed was an epileptic and a madman. Although this all may be true, what none of you christians will admit to is that your stories may be equally off base.

None of you have the answers, NONE OF YOU. And answering with "because it is so" and "because I believe" with such fervor yet without giving someone who believes in equally ridiculous stories the same benefit of faith is close minded and (as I said before) laughable.

You're all giving your respective religions a bad name, not that they need much help in that department.

I still don't see how the HIDDEN DOCUMENTS disprove the credibility of the Qur'an. The revelation was first released in Arabic and remains as such till today.
The Qur'an, unlike the Bible and the Torah which are written mainly with narrations, is thematic. It is not uncommon amongst the Muslim Scholars to come across a multitude of interpretations behind a Qur'anic verse. The first Surah (roughly translated to chapter I suppose) is one page long and has books and books of analysis. Many verses were interpreted in one way and another interpretation was revealed only after certain scientific advances were made. (The Qur'an mentions the riff of saltwater and freshwater between oceans and lakes; the Qur'an mentions that iron was "brought" to Earth - scientific evidence proves that Iron did in fact come from a supernova. Also the numerical value of the word Iron in Arabic - pronounced HAD EED - equates to the atomic number of Iron. Continental drift. How mountains are held in place and its relation to holding masses of land together. The Qur'an also gives an amazingly accurate description of a fetus.)
If you want textual evidence from the Qur'an or proof of the scientific research with regards to whats written above, please let me know. Now either, the Prophet Mohamad (PBUH) had all the scientific developments of the millenium down or the Qur'an is in fact the divine word of God.
ALSO it should be noted that God and Allah are the same term. In Hebrew and Aramaic it was Eloh and it is pronounced the exact same way as Allah. All Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based in the Middle East so please don't be so ethnocentric as to in fact beleive they were written in English.
All in all, the intense analysis going into the Qur'an serves as a point towards its depth and magnitude.




[edit on 20-1-2008 by RAYES]

Originally posted by RAYES
The ideal that many Muslims see wrong in Christianity is that Jesus is the son of God. Muslims regard Jesus as a Prophet. Similarly, Muslims regard Mohamad as a Prophet.

This is the problem, RAYES. I've bought it up before that Muslims recognize Jesus, but I was put back in my place because Muslims 'only' see him as a profit, and not the son of God, and that somehow makes the prophet of Islam an 'anti-christ' because of it.

Either way, you just can't reason with some people. They just need a 'bad guy' to single out and rehearse and rehash their own doctrine.

Originally posted by mattguy404

This is the problem, RAYES. I've bought it up before that Muslims recognize Jesus, but I was put back in my place because Muslims 'only' see him as a profit, and not the son of God, and that somehow makes the prophet of Islam an 'anti-christ' because of it.

Well the term "antichrist" has a biblical definition. That is, whoever doesn't believe that Jesus is/was God in the Flesh, is antichrist. In other words, it's a very broad definition that fits many instances and not just a singular instance. Where it becomes singular is when the guy in charge also doesn't believe Jesus is/was God in the Flesh, and deliberately goes out to kill those who do believe it. This is why christians who study prophetical verses, assume things like "islam" is antichristian.

Muslims think, "Well, we believe he existed. We just don't believe his claim to divinity of the magnitude suggested by the christian bible." They believe they are being charitable in this regard because at least, they aren't saying he never existed, only that whatever divinity claims are made on Jesus' behalf are false.

The problem to them is a matter of degrees. But there's no wiggle room in the texts regarding the subject. It's very straightforward.



[edit on 20-1-2008 by undo]

Antichrist is defined as:
1. a particular personage or power, variously identified or explained, who is conceived of as appearing in the world as the principal antagonist of Christ.
2. (sometimes lowercase) an opponent of Christ; a person or power antagonistic to Christ.
3. (often lowercase) a disbeliever in Christ.
4. (often lowercase) a false Christ.

Firstly, the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) beleives Jesus to be a prophet of God and therefore cannot be an opponent, antogonist or disbeleiver in Christ eliminating the first three definitions.
As for the forth definition, the aim of Mohammad and Christ although similar were quite different. The life of Jesus was recorded by the apostles thereby producing the Bible. The life of Mohammad was recorded by The Companions and is called the Hadith. However, the revelation of the Quran was braught to The Prophet as it was his duty as The Messenger of Allah to spread the revelation. Claiming he is a fals Christ is truly far fetched.
Anyhow, this is pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand and if you really want to know more about the Musilm beleif of Jesus, research it on the net. I`m sure you`ll find all the information you need there.

Jesus also wasn't particularly fond of some of Moses' edicts. He tried to explain to the jews of the time that Moses was just making some of their laws up because he knew the hardness of their hearts (in the example,it was a reference to divorce under the old covenant), but these were not direct commandments from God, just Moses doing the best he could in the situation. the truth of the matter was that divorce was heavily frowned upon by God. To divorce, after entering into a binding agreement in the presence of God, is in the order of breaking an oath you've made with God. .

Anyway, he further goes on to describe the difference between doing a thing and thinking about doing a thing. Even thinking about it, is the equivalent of doing it, in the eyes of God, according to this.

Next, Jesus was very pro-female. Some of his apostles were not and you can see evidence of that in later texts. Boy there's gonna be alot of very surprised men when we get to the other side.

Reply to AshleyD

I'm asking for sources that state this is how the Koran was penned. You're telling me how many believe it to be penned but not where the information is documented.

Here are some sources.

Narrated Kharija bin Zaid (Bukhari 4.62)

Zaid bin Thabit said, "When the Quran was compiled from various written manuscripts, one of the verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing which I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting. I could not find it except with Khuzaima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah's Apostle regarded as equal to the witness of two men. And the verse was: "Among the believers are men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah." (33.23)

Narrated Zain bin thabit(rz): (Bukhari 6.509)

Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him.

Originally posted by undo
Jesus also wasn't particularly fond of some of Moses' edicts. He tried to explain to the jews of the time that Moses was just making some of their laws up because he knew the hardness of their hearts (in the example,it was a reference to divorce under the old covenant), but these were not direct commandments from God, just Moses doing the best he could in the situation. the truth of the matter was that divorce was heavily frowned upon by God. To divorce, after entering into a binding agreement in the presence of God, is in the order of breaking an oath you've made with God. .

Not quite true there undo..............Christ ranted against the traditions of MAN corrupting the law. Your use of the term "old covenant" is the telltale sign. GOD and Jesus are the same, the law is the same, the covenant is the same.

The bible is a single bound word of GOD not a first and second half of a football game.

The Koran is a long rambling assembly of insane thought.

Example, its OK to lie, IF it benefits ISLAM. It's OK to murder, if it benefits ISLAM. It's OK to set muhammand above Jesus.......

A "tale" second hand from an angel to mankind..........

I have no resepect for "Christians" or there mythological belief system.

However, the facts of the matter, throughout the lost and forgoten documents, through the bible and several other documentations the story of the "creator God" and "God's Chosen" people, not the jews, along with "God's Christ", is one unbelieveabley well written story.

That's unless you try to factor in the falsest aspects of books of insane people that didn't grasp the monotheistic story at all and thought they'd just use charactors devloped to suport their lies.

The Koran isn't factual.

I could go on in detail. What's the sense. Sure it might be "historicly" accurate to some extent but it tells the story of a madman named mohamad.